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[W:220,1256]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

PoS

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According to the bible, there is only one god, yet somehow the believers in the trinity seems to think that this god has three different persons, and are distinct as well.

Basic math will tell you that 1+1+1=3, yet trinitarians somehow think it is just one.

This so-called problem has been with Christianity since the very beginning of the religion and it has never been resolved. In fact, it is the reason why there are so many different denominations, its an inherent flaw that makes the trinity unworkable since it has no sound logical basis, and is therefore incompatible with the modern world and basic thinking in general.

The trinity can only work if you believe in 3 gods, and thats polytheism, not monotheism.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Not since the beginning but close to it...the doctrine was adopted in the 3rd century CE...the early Christians before that time did not believe in 3 Gods in one...more than 20 years after Jesus died and ascended to heaven, the apostle Paul wrote...

“‘For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?’ But we have the mind of Christ.” 1 Corinthians 2:16

How is it possible to have “the mind of Christ” and yet not know “the mind of the Lord”​...if the Father and the Son are coequal?

Then there's John 6:57..."Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me."

Jesus repeatedly referred to the Father as “my God”...even after his return to heaven...Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Revelation 3:2, 12
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Not since the beginning but close to it...the doctrine was adopted in the 3rd century CE...the early Christians before that time did not believe in 3 Gods in one...more than 20 years after Jesus died and ascended to heaven, the apostle Paul wrote...

“‘For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?’ But we have the mind of Christ.” 1 Corinthians 2:16

How is it possible to have “the mind of Christ” and yet not know “the mind of the Lord”​...if the Father and the Son are coequal?

Then there's John 6:57..."Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me."

Jesus repeatedly referred to the Father as “my God”...even after his return to heaven...Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Revelation 3:2, 12

I agree. It wasnt officially adopted by the orthodox faction until centuries later, but there were many who hailed Jesus as equal to god during the birth of the movement.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

According to the bible, there is only one god, yet somehow the believers in the trinity seems to think that this god has three different persons, and are distinct as well.

Basic math will tell you that 1+1+1=3, yet trinitarians somehow think it is just one.

This so-called problem has been with Christianity since the very beginning of the religion and it has never been resolved. In fact, it is the reason why there are so many different denominations, its an inherent flaw that makes the trinity unworkable since it has no sound logical basis, and is therefore incompatible with the modern world and basic thinking in general.

The trinity can only work if you believe in 3 gods, and thats polytheism, not monotheism.

On higher dimensional levels our concepts of numbers are no longer relevant. God can be one and infinitely many at the same time.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

I agree. It wasnt officially adopted by the orthodox faction until centuries later, but there were many who hailed Jesus as equal to god during the birth of the movement.

But nowhere did Jesus himself claim to be God....he did not act like Satan, who sought worship for himself....instead Jesus truthfully stated.... “The Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

But nowhere did Jesus himself claim to be God....

"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you". - Exodus 3:14

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am". -John 8:58


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

"I and my Father are one" - John 10:30


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you". - Exodus 3:14

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am". -John 8:58


OM

That is an inaccurate translation...

Questions From Readers

● John 8:58, according to the King James Version, says: “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” But the New World Translation states: “Jesus said to them: ‘Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.’” Why does the New World Translation use “I have been” instead of “I am”?—R. B., United States.

The Greek verb there used, eimiʹ, is literally in the present tense, but in view of its being preceded by the aorist infinitive clause which refers to Abraham’s past, the Greek verb eimiʹ must be viewed as a historical present. Regarding the historical present Hadley and Allen’s Greek Grammar says, in section 828: HISTORICAL PRESENT.—In vivid narration, a past event is often thought of and expressed as present: . . . The present in this use is freely interchanged with the past tenses . . . ”

Says A. T. Robertson’s A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, under “The Historical Present,” pages 866-869: “This vivid idiom is popular in all languages, particularly in the vernacular. . . . it is much more frequent in Greek than in English and is a survival of ‘the original stock of our languages.’ ‘It antedates the differentiation into imperfect and aorist.’ . . . It is common enough in the LXX [Septuagint], . . . Hawkins finds the historical present in the LXX 337 times. Josephus uses it also. The New Testament examples are thus ‘dramatic.’ The historical present is not always aoristic. It may be durative like the imperfect. . . . Hawkins . . . finds 93 historic presents in Matthew (15 of them in Parables), but 162 in John and 151 in Mark. It is rare in the rest of the New Testament. It is most frequent in Mark, John, Matthew and in this order. . . .”

That a historical present in the Greek in the midst of a context of the past tense is properly rendered in English as a past tense is recognized by the best of modern Bible translators. Dr. James Moffatt was on the Revised Standard Version Bible Committee, and note how he translates John 8:58 in his own version: “‘Truly, truly I tell you,’ said Jesus, ‘I have existed before Abraham was born.’”

Professor E. J. Goodspeed was a member of the American Standard Bible Committee, and his translation renders John 8:58 as follows: “Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born!’”

Note other translations:

Chas. Williams’ The New Testament: “Then Jesus said to them, ‘I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born.’”

A. S. Lewis’ “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest: “He said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I have been.”

The Twentieth Century New Testament: “‘Believe me,’ Jesus replied, ‘before Abraham was born I was already what I am.’”

G. M. Lamsa’s The Modern New Testament: “Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I was.”

Jas. Murdock’s The Syriac New Testament: “Jesus said to them: Verily, verily, I say to you, That before Abraham existed, I was.”

F. Pfaefflin’s Das Neue Testament (German): “Jesus: ‘Before there was an Abraham, I was already there [war ich schon da]!’”

C. Stage’s Das Neue Testament (German): “Jesus said to them: ‘Truly, truly, I say to you: Before Abraham was born, I was [war ich].’”

Nácar Colunga’s Nuevo Testamento (Spanish): “Jesus answered: ‘In truth, in truth, I say to you: Before Abraham was born, I was [era yo].’”

F. Delitzsch’s Hebrew New Testament and that by Salkinson-Ginsburg both have the verb in the perfect form “I have been” (haiithi) instead of in the imperfect form.

From the above it is to be seen that the New World Translation is consistent with itself in rendering the historical present by rendering John 8:58 “I have been” instead of “I am.” Since Jesus was here referring to an existence from before Abraham and continuing down till he spoke, the New World Translation rendered egoʹ eimiʹ as “I have been” instead of “I was.”

When any clerical critic tries to claim inaccuracy for the New World Translation at John 8:58, then he is indicting not only it but also all these other scholars, English and foreign language, of inaccuracy. He is entitled to take and accept the version that he prefers because of bias toward a religious doctrine, in this case the trinity, but yet it should be recognized that the New World Translation has plenty of support by acknowledged, widely known translators for its rendering at John 8:58.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1957129?q=John+8:58&p=par
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

On higher dimensional levels our concepts of numbers are no longer relevant. God can be one and infinitely many at the same time.

Or there can be many gods.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

"I and my Father are one" - John 10:30


OM

Context is everything...Jesus also says in verse 29...

"What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father."

Jesus' stating he and the Father are one means one in unity...

Jesus’ comment here shows that he and his Father are unified in protecting sheeplike ones and leading them to everlasting life. Such shepherding is a joint task of the Father and the Son. They are equally concerned about the sheep, not allowing anyone to snatch them out of their hand. (Joh 10:27-29; compare Eze 34:23, 24.) In John’s Gospel, the unity in fellowship, will, and purpose between the Father and the Son is often mentioned. The Greek word here rendered “one” is, not in the masculine gender (denoting “one person”), but in the neuter gender (denoting “one thing”), supporting the thought that Jesus and his Father are “one” in action and cooperation, not in person. (Joh 5:19; 14:9, 23) That Jesus referred, not to an equality of godship, but to a oneness of purpose and action is confirmed by comparing the words recorded here with his prayer recorded in John chapter 17. (Joh 10:25-29; 17:2, 9-11) This is especially evident when he prays that his followers “may be one just as we are one.” (Joh 17:11) So the kind of oneness referred to in chapter 10 as well as in chapter 17 would be the same.—See 1Co 3:8 and study notes on Joh 17:11, 21, where the Greek word for “one” is used in a similar way.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/E/2018/43/10#s=30&study=discover&v=43:10:3
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

While you claim that the KJV is mistranslated (which I do not necessarily disagree with that assessment), the NWT is notorious for its dynamically and intentionally-skewed changing of whole words to frame narratives.


OM

Care to address the actual content?
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

So they can't be three. One is one in any dimension.

Well, to be fair, there were times when raising my son that his mother and I had minor disagreements on his rearing, but still managed to present a "we are as one" united front - even though we were two.


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Well, to be fair, there were times when raising my son that his mother and I had minor disagreements on his rearing, but still managed to present a "we are as one" united front.


OM

Exactly, but you are still 2 different individuals...just as Jehovah and Jesus are 2 different individuals...
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Jesus' stating he and the Father are one means one in unity...

I accept that explanation; thank you.



OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Well, to be fair, there were times when raising my son that his mother and I had minor disagreements on his rearing, but still managed to present a "we are as one" united front - even though we were two.


OM

Did he claim that you might be infinite in higher dimensions?
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Care to address the actual content?

Absolutely. Let's take a look at the original Greek use of the term ειμι (verse 58), compare. That particular term, literally translated into English, means to be, to exist, to happen, to be present. In other words... IN THE PRESENT. The NWT on the other hand, intentionally (and oddly) mistranslated that Greek term into "I have been" (PAST).


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Absolutely. Let's take a look at the original Greek use of the term ειμι (verse 58), compare. That particular term, literally translated into English, means to be, to exist, to happen, to be present. In other words... IN THE PRESENT. The NWT on the other hand, intentionally (and oddly) mistranslated that Greek term into "I have been" (PAST).


OM

lol...meaning he was present at the time of Abraham...
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Did he claim that you might be infinite in higher dimensions?

No, but he did make a habit of trying to continually divide us, as would be expected with a child trying to get what they want.


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

No, but he did make a habit of trying to continually divide us, as would be expected with a child trying to get what they want.


OM

As a father of two, I've been there.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

lol...meaning he was present at the time of Abraham...

Except that Greek term is in the PRESENT; and just so happens to be the same name of the deity invoked in the revered Moses/Exodus narratives. The Johannine narrative has him speaking in an eternal sense. No matter how one slices it, the NWT (again) chose to take a word in its original language, and completely skew it to fit within the framework of an artificial narrative.


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Except that Greek term is in the PRESENT; and just so happens to be the same name of the deity invoked in the revered Moses/Exodus narratives. The Johannine narrative has him speaking in an eternal sense. No matter how one slices it, the NWT (again) chose to take a word in its original language, and completely skew it to fit within the framework of an artificial narrative.


OM

I'll go with the ponderance of evidence with other translations, as well as the Bible scholars mentioned...

Regarding the historical present Hadley and Allen’s Greek Grammar says, in section 828: HISTORICAL PRESENT.—In vivid narration, a past event is often thought of and expressed as present: . . . The present in this use is freely interchanged with the past tenses . . . ”
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

I'll go with the ponderance of evidence with other translations, as well as the Bible scholars mentioned...

What "other" translations? I thought you adhered specifically to the NWT?


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

According to the bible, there is only one god, yet somehow the believers in the trinity seems to think that this god has three different persons, and are distinct as well.

Basic math will tell you that 1+1+1=3, yet trinitarians somehow think it is just one.

This so-called problem has been with Christianity since the very beginning of the religion and it has never been resolved. In fact, it is the reason why there are so many different denominations, its an inherent flaw that makes the trinity unworkable since it has no sound logical basis, and is therefore incompatible with the modern world and basic thinking in general.

The trinity can only work if you believe in 3 gods, and thats polytheism, not monotheism.

Simply no.

You have that backwards. Christianity is only polythiestic if you don't believe in the trinity.
As Christianity states there is only 1 God.

God is a spirit and does not have a body like man.
God as scripture has shown has 3 distinct personalities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
All three in unity and 1 God.

there is nothing polytheistic about it.

the only way that you can treat it as polytheistic is to consider them each a God and individual people not connected to each other similar to what mormons and JW's teach.
Christ is not a created person. he was with God and Was God John 1:1.
 
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