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[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

Fishking

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Why is that, do you think?
I think Americans got lazy post WWII. We were the only show in town, because the rest of the developed world was blown up. We were living on easy street and didn't think that would change. Now those other nations have rebuilt and other nations who weren't developed are now, or are up and coming.

That's not all of it but I think that plays a big role.
 

Fishking

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And that is a good thing. The last thing a modern nation need to be competitive in the 21st century is a population of religious zealots living in the past. State run public education built this nation and lifted millions out of poverty. You just want a population of sheep that follow any leader no matter how corrupt. The opiate for the people that keeps them voting against their own best interests. Religion does not belong in the classroom and indoctrinating children in religion should be a crime. Let them choose what they believe when they are old enough to make those decisions.
Is it a good thing? All the historically Christian nations are the best places to live on earth. They are also the ones who are responsible for the advancement of human rights around the world. Must be something going right there.

However, every single purposefully atheistic nation has been horribly oppressive and murderous. Every single one.
 

Chomsky

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No it isn't. It's money for parents to choose a better school for their kids. Those schools then use that money to operate their school and educate kids. It's not "sweetheart money".

The money isn't given to the school?

I think your obfuscating here . . .
 

Fishking

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The money isn't given to the school?

I think your obfuscating here . . .
No, I'm taking issue with your choice of description. It's not a sweetheart deal of any kind. It's a legitimate school getting money to education kids, just like public schools are. In fact, the only "sweetheart" deals happening are on the part of public schools where people have to pay for them, even if they send their kids to a private school. How sweet is that? Free money for a kid they don't have to educate.
 

Ishm

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You can envisage what will happen. Private schools will take the govt funding and a bit more from the parents. Those that can afford the bit more will end up with kids at private schools. That leaves poorer families at public schools who have less funding and less ability to attract good teachers. Education will split along an economic divide, further growing the existing social divides. This is a socially horrible idea for an already socially divided country. Might take a decade or two to see the full impact, but historians in the future will ask how people could be so dumb.
 

Bodi

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You are not being intellectually honest. You said:
What's closer to fascism is trying to force a state-run public education on all children that feeds them a very specific message of indoctrination.
Your example is just a teacher...

At 2:02 into the video that you provided, it shows that the state run public education system... the District, has a policy that does not allow imbalanced political topics to be taught. You actually only proved my point with your video... thank you.
 

Groogrux

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There is a strong movement of theocratic facism afoot in this country. Televangelists and their GOP fellow travelers have been fighting to impose their version of Christianity on the rest of the nation for fifty years.

By the 2000’s, soldiers like Oliver North and Stephen Cambone were working the mega church curcuit in uniform.

Trump’s bigotry and white nationalism echo the things being said in right wing “Christian“ world.

If there’s no impending “theocratic facism” afoot, why did the Supreme Court overturn Roe”. That was the direct result of fifty years of campaigning and scheming by religous zealots.

This Arizona thing is an opening salvo in a war against public eduction. It has been peddled for years.

it’s also the opening salvo in a manufactured CRT campaign that is intended to keep bigotry and “white nationalism“ front and center. It’s teh GOP’s 2022 campaign tactic.

They don’t care one whit about how eduction might be affected. All they really care about is the mid term elections.
Maybe if the teachers unions would hold their teachers accountable there wouldn’t be a war on public education. Public schools are failing miserably but the teachers want raises tear after year. For what? Certainly not performance.
 

justabubba

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Maybe if the teachers unions would hold their teachers accountable there wouldn’t be a war on public education. Public schools are failing miserably but the teachers want raises tear after year. For what? Certainly not performance.
that ^ post spawned a couple of questions:

what should the teachers union do to hold teachers accountable?

and for what reasons would the teachers need to be held accountable?
 

Bodi

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Maybe if the teachers unions would hold their teachers accountable there wouldn’t be a war on public education. Public schools are failing miserably but the teachers want raises tear after year. For what? Certainly not performance.
The annual Best Countries Report, conducted by US News and World Report, BAV Group, and the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, reserves an entire section for education. The report surveys thousands of people across 78 countries, then ranks those countries based upon the survey's responses. The education portion of the survey compiles scores from three equally-weighted attributes: a well-developed public education system, would consider attending university there, and provides top-quality education. As of 2021, the top ten countries based on education rankings are:

Countries with the Best Educational Systems - 2021 Best Countries Report*​

  1. The United States
  2. The United Kingdom
  3. Germany
  4. Canada
  5. France
  6. Switzerland
  7. Japan
  8. Australia
  9. Sweden
  10. The Netherlands
 

Ishm

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Maybe if the teachers unions would hold their teachers accountable there wouldn’t be a war on public education. Public schools are failing miserably but the teachers want raises tear after year. For what? Certainly not performance.
Maybe if parents raised their children with a little less 'entitlement' teachers would have a better chance of educating them.
 

Fishking

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You are not being intellectually honest. You said:

Your example is just a teacher...

At 2:02 into the video that you provided, it shows that the state run public education system... the District, has a policy that does not allow imbalanced political topics to be taught. You actually only proved my point with your video... thank you.
They only fired him after the video came out. He had an Antifa flag up in his classroom, so that was obviously condoned. And it's not "just a teacher". It's teacher after teacher after teacher and something only happens when videos show controversy and people speak out. They aren't hiding this stuff.


 

Fishking

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Boy, you guys have sure ****ed it all up, huh. Something so simple, something that other countries do so easily. I checked the list, you guys rank 38 in math, between Hungary and Belarus. Vietnam is 24.
Must be all someone elses fault. Leftists, I guess. Leftist propagandists. I guess thats why China is number 1, no propaganda, all conservative rightists.
Yeah, I guess all you can do is tear it all down, start over, try to get it right this time.
Other countries are not our countries. It's obviously not being fixed here. Not sure why that is confusing for you.
 

Groogrux

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Maybe if parents raised their children with a little less 'entitlement' teachers would have a better chance of educating them.
Probably, but that’s not the crux of the problem. The one size fits all, students at the top and bottom of the class all need to be in the same classroom is a huge failure.
 

Groogrux

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that ^ post spawned a couple of questions:

what should the teachers union do to hold teachers accountable?

and for what reasons would the teachers need to be held accountable?
Evaluate them on something other than just showing up for work? We love to blather on about how important teachers are yet we don’t hold them to any standards. Standardized test scores? Parent surveys? We just assume they’re doing their job effectively?
 

Carjosse

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Kids that barely pass will be hard for any school to "save". But I do happen to know that many a K-12 private school (especially the highest ranked ones) offer fully paid scholarships to high achieving kids with potential, but from home environments like Johnny's. They aren't plentiful and the competition is fierce but they are oh so valuable and high achieving kids in a really rough situation (like Johnny) are exactly the kind of child they are meant for - and exactly how that child goes on to potentially alter an entire history of family poverty - going forth.
But as far as children who perform way below average from the youngest age, that student is challenging for any school and will likely struggle in public or private school. But the advantage of school choice for a child like that, is they can be placed in a school that is, for example, the opposite of a STEM school. I've always felt that each child, often each sibling, is completely different and it makes sense that even two brothers might be better off in two different schools - where their specific strengths can be strengthened rather than having one suffer in an environment that will never match them. School choice, by its very nature, helps facilitate that differentiation. That child who struggles mightily in math might excel on a musical instrument or working in carpentry or working on engines.
That is not unique to the private school system, I know both Quebec and Ontario have elite public schools and programs for gifted students in a variety of fields from STEM to fine arts, french immersion schools, and some offer international Baccalaureate programs as well. You have to test into them though.
 

Lycanthrope

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You can envisage what will happen. Private schools will take the govt funding and a bit more from the parents. Those that can afford the bit more will end up with kids at private schools. That leaves poorer families at public schools who have less funding and less ability to attract good teachers. Education will split along an economic divide, further growing the existing social divides. This is a socially horrible idea for an already socially divided country. Might take a decade or two to see the full impact, but historians in the future will ask how people could be so dumb.
Answer: Arizona conservatives.
 

Slyfox696

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Sorry but when you chop up the conversation like that taking statements out of their full context, it becomes more tedious than I choose to deal with.
Okay, I'll simplify it for you.

You were indoctrinated. Your school actively engaged in indoctrination. Making everyone sing Handel's Messiah is a form of indoctrination. Making everyone recite the Pledge every morning is indoctrination. "Reinforcing community values" is indoctrination. You were indoctrinated and it worked so well, you still do not even realize it.
And the discussion has become circular and I believe I have addressed all the points you have made. We won't agree on this one.
That's because you're saying provably false things. I do not agree with provably false things.
I do applaud Arizona's experiment with unrestricted vouchers that put the education options for school children back into the hands of parents.
But it doesn't really.
It will likely take some time to determine the overall effect the new system will have.
Nah, we'll see the effects of it right away.
And you still should read Thomas Sowell, at least the essay I linked.
I'll make you a deal. You read Derrick Bell or Richard Delgado and I'll read your Sowell webpage. Deal?
 

Slyfox696

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Your post is ****ing dumb.
This is you clearly waving the white flag because you know I clearly understand this issue far better than you do.
You I'll stop with you thinking that you need funding for 100 students for 90.
Hello, strawman, the refuge of the ignorant. Always good to see you again.
I'm not going waste my time seeing you repeat the same idiotic mistakes over and over in your tiny one sentence soundbites, like it's some kind of children's book that needs everything broken up.
This must be code for "Slyfox succinctly exposed my ignorance on how school funding works, using Arizona's actual funding formula, but rather than admit I was wrong and talking out of my ass, I'll make up a bunch of stuff, pretend like no one noticed how wrong I was, and then I'll slink away with my tail between my legs." There's really no other explanation for this sentence.

Since you're surrendering, I'll just leave you with this...it's okay that you don't acknowledge I was right and you were wrong, I understand how important some people's e-ego is to them. But, with that said, hopefully you learned a little something about public education finances. And I want to be clear...our discussion on finances was very broad and simplistic. Actually determining funding is much more complicated and involved than the level on which we were discussing, so keep that in mind next time you wish to discuss public school funding. Just a friendly little tip from someone who clearly knows far more about this subject than you do.

Have a great day and don't trip on your tail!
 

Slyfox696

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The culture in the US doesn't value education as much as other nations.
This is true...now if only we could start to understand where that lack of value comes from....
 

Ishm

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Evaluate them on something other than just showing up for work? We love to blather on about how important teachers are yet we don’t hold them to any standards. Standardized test scores? Parent surveys? We just assume they’re doing their job effectively?
There is a small problem with that. It would need teachers conditions to be good enough to regularly attract quality applicants rather than always being desperate to get enough staff. You couldn't pay me enough to deal with what many parents deliver up as children today. Sort out the parenting and you can sort out the teaching.
 

justabubba

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Evaluate them on something other than just showing up for work? We love to blather on about how important teachers are yet we don’t hold them to any standards. Standardized test scores? Parent surveys? We just assume they’re doing their job effectively?
let's DO talk about evaluations and WHO should be performing them.
you posted that it is the union's responsibility to do so
that tells me you are unacquainted with labor law
those teachers' unions are OBLIGATED under federal law to represent the interests of the TEACHERS
it would make no sense for the same union which is obligated to represent the teacher in a disciplinary matter to also be responsible for bringing the charges AGAINST the teacher relative to a disciplinary matter and/or one having to do with performance

it would then seem that your argument is misplaced against the unions. you should instead be wailing against the failure of management to do its well paid jobs to identify inappropriate staff issues and then building a case that can effectively demonstrate that a case is there to be made
once that is in effect against the teacher it will then be time for the union to fulfill its fiduciary duty to represent the teacher facing the management allegations
if management fails to make a compelling, documented case against the teacher, management's action will probably (hopefully) fail

despite those above corrections made regarding your post, and who should do what, i agree with your presentation that teachers SHOULD be held accountable. so too, should management. the union should not be needed to perform management's job
 

Slyfox696

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I think Americans got lazy post WWII. We were the only show in town, because the rest of the developed world was blown up. We were living on easy street and didn't think that would change. Now those other nations have rebuilt and other nations who weren't developed are now, or are up and coming.

That's not all of it but I think that plays a big role.
I agree American society does not value education the way it should. But I disagree with you as to why, though I could see why your explanation here could be related. I think posts like the majority of yours and AlbqOwl illustrate why. There is a SIGNIFICANT percentage of Americans who are terrified of change. They don't want change and when change happens, they lash out.

Significant percentage of Americans didn't like school integration. They didn't like the removal of religion from public school. They don't like the idea the concepts they were taught may not be relevant today and they don't like HOW they were taught those concepts might be different today. And so there becomes this public outcry from those who are, let's call them old-fashioned, who want education to remain the way it was when they were taught, not realizing how much different the world of today is from yesterday's.

It then becomes a chain effect. People criticize public education, so there becomes media sources who find it profitable to criticize public education. Private schools, who actively discriminate against children, only select certain students so the critics of public education have an idol in their war against the change in public education, never realizing how false that idol truly is. And now we're to a place where significant portions of Americans are willing to go on the Internet and baselessly criticize public education for ridiculous reasons...like the majority of the posts you and AlbqOwl have created.

Are there valid criticisms of public education? Of course there are. I have many myself and have even mentioned a couple in this thread. But those criticisms are rarely discussed by the anti public education crowd. Instead there's just a bunch of nonsense and when experts push back on the nonsense, they get even more nonsense in return.
 
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Slyfox696

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that ^ post spawned a couple of questions:

what should the teachers union do to hold teachers accountable?

and for what reasons would the teachers need to be held accountable?
Well, obviously, when those first year teachers first start their job and are given the classes with the lower performing students, they should be fired after the first year for their student's scores being so low! That's how you'll fix education!

This is literally what people think should happen. People don't ever stop to think that so much of the issues in public education are unrelated to public education.
 

Slyfox696

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Probably, but that’s not the crux of the problem.
No, it really is a significant portion of the problem.
The one size fits all, students at the top and bottom of the class all need to be in the same classroom is a huge failure.
That's not exactly true in most schools, but I do agree that American education should break away from their old fashioned model. So will you be calling and writing your legislators? Because public schools are guided by laws...what steps will you take to rectify this?
 
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