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[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

Lycanthrope

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When the public schools indoctrinate instead of educating the kids, the parents should have every right to pull their kids out of public schools and put them in a school that educates, nurtures, inspires, promotes critical thinking. And they should not have to pay for public schools that won't.
Pull their kids out of public schools and put them in a school that indoctrinates them in the religion of their choosing. Let's call it what it is.
 

Grand Mal

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No, I'm not going to forget it and let you move the goal post to some mad up bullshit you pulled out of your butthurt ass, like you did here.

No, there is nothing to be done with public schools. If this were not so, it would be done already. It's an over bloated and corrupted institution, through and through. The only thing to do is cut the rot out as much as possible.
Boy, you guys have sure ****ed it all up, huh. Something so simple, something that other countries do so easily. I checked the list, you guys rank 38 in math, between Hungary and Belarus. Vietnam is 24.
Must be all someone elses fault. Leftists, I guess. Leftist propagandists. I guess thats why China is number 1, no propaganda, all conservative rightists.
Yeah, I guess all you can do is tear it all down, start over, try to get it right this time.
 

AlbqOwl

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Pull their kids out of public schools and put them in a school that indoctrinates them in the religion of their choosing. Let's call it what it is.
Well if you call respecting God, country, flag, and classical education 'indoctrination' okay I'll go with that. If the choice is A) having my grade schooler exposed to CRT, transgendering, sexual orientation, what is PC re pronouns and such, and falling behind in what used to be core curriculum or B) exposed to classical music, perhaps a class in religion, and skillfully taught to read, do math, understand real history including what makes America and its constitution exceptional, geography, science and encouraged to respect God, country, flag, all the values I hold, I'm going with B).

I think the public school should for the most part reflect the community values. The occasional outlier can adapt to the majority far more reasonably than the entire system should be adjusted for the few outliers. If those outliers find the resulting public schools unsuitable for their values/beliefs whatever, they have the option and extra cash in their pocket to find education more suitable for them. Again no public institution is going to be ideal for every person. The best we can do is accommodate the majority.

It is likely I will have to pay more above the state allocation to give my child that better education, one that I myself received in the public schools. If I could get that for my children in the public schools without having to pay extra, most especially if there was a public school nearby, of course I would choose the public school.

If the public schools find their student censuses dwindling because parents choose a better education for their kids elsewhere, I suspect the public schools might rethink their approach and clean up their act. At worst that would benefit the children who remain in the public schools.

If the public schools happen to be doing a good job of education, and there are public schools that do, there's no problem. The loss of students to the new voucher system will likely be small and not a problem.
 

gbg3

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I can appreciate the research you did here, but you seemed to have misunderstood what I was asking. I was asking for evidence that there is busing on a wide scale in private schools. I believe you have since agreed that it is not very common.
Well no, I haven't "since agreed" with anything I'd have no way of knowing. I have no "wide scale" knowledge of today's large variety of private schools.
I know of one which does indeed offer full tuition to poor families with exceptional children, transportation to any student wanting or needing it, and significantly reduced tuition to children of teachers in the school. And I know the school takes great pride in the program and it's an important part of their mission.
In no way does that assume any agreement with me about your different conversation. I don't know anything about your claims and thus couldn't agree or disagree.
 

Lycanthrope

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Well if you call respecting God, country, flag, and classical education 'indoctrination' okay I'll go with that. If the choice is A) having my grade schooler exposed to CRT, transgendering, sexual orientation, what is PC re pronouns and such, and falling behind in what used to be core curriculum or B) exposed to classical music, perhaps a class in religion, and skillfully taught to read, do math, understand real history including what makes America and its constitution exceptional, geography, science and encouraged to respect God, country, flag, all the values I hold, I'm going with B).

I think the public school should for the most part reflect the community values. The occasional outlier can adapt to the majority far more reasonably than the entire system should be adjusted for the few outliers. If those outliers find the resulting public schools unsuitable for their values/beliefs whatever, they have the option and extra cash in their pocket to find education more suitable for them. Again no public institution is going to be ideal for every person. The best we can do is accommodate the majority.

It is likely I will have to pay more above the state allocation to give my child that better education, one that I myself received in the public schools. If I could get that for my children in the public schools without having to pay extra, most especially if there was a public school nearby, of course I would choose the public school.

If the public schools find their student censuses dwindling because parents choose a better education for their kids elsewhere, I suspect the public schools might rethink their approach and clean up their act. At worst that would benefit the children who remain in the public schools.

If the public schools happen to be doing a good job of education, and there are public schools that do, there's no problem. The loss of students to the new voucher system will likely be small and not a problem.
If you want to pay extra for your child to be indoctrinated by their school in your faith (be it Christian, Muslim, Satanist or whatever) that is your choice. Taxpayers should not pay one penny of that cost.
 

gbg3

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Pull their kids out of public schools and put them in a school that indoctrinates them in the religion of their choosing. Let's call it what it is.
Yes, let's call it what it is which I think is exactly what it should be - up to the parents of the student. That's what school choice is all about.
 

Lycanthrope

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Yes, let's call it what it is which I think is exactly what it should be - up to the parents of the student. That's what school choice is all about.
I agree - Parents can have their children indoctrinated in the faith of their choice. They shouldn't expect taxpayers to foot the bill, however.
 

gbg3

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I agree - Parents can have their children indoctrinated in the faith of their choice. They shouldn't expect taxpayers to foot the bill, however.
I imagine you'll find plenty of states where school choice will not be available in the same fashion as AZ. But if you live in AZ, it seems as if school choice will indeed be linked to education taxation.
 

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Why should my tax dollars pay for you to indoctrinate your child with religion? That is the entire point of this thread, right?
Nobody is saying the public schools should indoctrinate children with anything other than ability to read, write, do math, understand enough science to understand possibilities, understand all the history of this country and what makes America exceptional etc. But neither should the public school that the local community pays for make the values of that local community unwelcome. Christmas is a national holiday for instance. To not recognize it in the public schools is ridiculous. A child's faith should not be forced on others but neither should it be made unwelcome in the public school where the child spends a good many hours of his/her week. To offer a generic, non denominational prayer that comforts a majority does not hurt anybody not included in that majority and should not be denied to the majority.

My school put on a Christmas concert made up of all the middle school and high school choirs and, among some secular and traditional Christmas Carols did a complete performance of Handel's "Messiah." People from miles around, Christians, Jews, Atheists, that Buddhist family, all came. It was the high point of the Christmas season in that part of our world. That is not indoctrination. That is exposing people to the magnificence of classical music and sharing in a positive and beautiful experience. No one was harmed in any way.

You said before that you had never heard of Thomas Sowell. That may be part of the problem here. To read his thinking on economics, race, culture, politics, education is to almost get a complete education in itself. There are other authors I could also recommend that provide excellent insights into problems, possibilities, solutions.

Read through the first dozen paragraph so of this particular work and you will understand more of how Sowell thinks, what his research has revealed, what he believes education should be.

The closing paragraph: "We cannot recapture the past and there is much in the past that we should not want to recapture. But neither is it irrelevant. If nothing else, history shows what can be achieved, even in the face of adversity. We have no excuse for achieving less in an era of greater material abundance and greater social opportunities."
 

Lycanthrope

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I imagine you'll find plenty of states where school choice will not be available in the same fashion as AZ. But if you live in AZ, it seems as if school choice will indeed be linked to education taxation.
Every parent in every state has the choice to put their kids in whatever school they want. But they shouldn't get taxpayer money to do it when it involves eschewing public education for religious education.

Personal responsibility and bootstrapping don't count here? You want to make the choice, you have it. Just don't expect others to help pay for it.

Arizona got it wrong - tax dollars should not go to religious indoctrination, be it church, mosque, or temple.
 

Slyfox696

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Well if you call respecting God, country, flag, and classical education 'indoctrination' okay I'll go with that.
I call teaching children to do those things "indoctrination", yes. Because that's exactly what it is.
If the choice is A) having my grade schooler exposed to CRT, transgendering, sexual orientation, what is PC re pronouns and such, and falling behind in what used to be core curriculum or B) exposed to classical music, perhaps a class in religion, and skillfully taught to read, do math, understand real history including what makes America and its constitution exceptional, geography, science and encouraged to respect God, country, flag, all the values I hold, I'm going with B).
Okay, but what if the choice is A) teaching children to not be prejudiced and providing them with an education which teaches them to read, understand math better than kids ever before, etc. or B) teaching them religious curriculum which is full of mythology and false information and falling behind in core curriculum...will you still choose B?

In other words, your "choices" were an utterly false set of conflicting options.
I think the public school should for the most part reflect the community values.
So then you disagree with what Florida is doing, by not allowing communities to incorporate CRT or anti prejudice curriculum if they want?
If the public schools find their student censuses dwindling because parents choose a better education for their kids elsewhere, I suspect the public schools might rethink their approach and clean up their act. At worst that would benefit the children who remain in the public schools.
What do you mean "rethink their approach"? Who do you think sets the state standards? Who do you think passes the laws?
If the public schools happen to be doing a good job of education
On the whole, they do.
 

Slyfox696

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Well no, I haven't "since agreed" with anything I'd have no way of knowing. I have no "wide scale" knowledge of today's large variety of private schools.
Well, I have a pretty good idea and I can tell you it doesn't happen. But you suggested it did.
In no way does that assume any agreement with me about your different conversation. I don't know anything about your claims and thus couldn't agree or disagree.
It was your claim. See here:

 

Slyfox696

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Yes, let's call it what it is which I think is exactly what it should be - up to the parents of the student. That's what school choice is all about.
But the "choice" to pay for a private religious education which actively discriminates against children should not be paid for with taxpayer money. That's the point.

No one is saying parents shouldn't be allowed to enroll their children in a private school, should they have the financial resources to do so and their child is accepted. We're saying we should not steal taxpayer money from public schools to give people who already have a financial advantage more of an advantage.
 

AliHajiSheik

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I think it is great that individual states can experiment with new ideas to try to make education better. The government has an interest in a well education public, unfortunately that same government doesn't always do a good job in making that happen.
 

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What I find interesting is some of Arizona State Legislature members are part owners to charter schools or involved in their management.
The trend to support charter school, home schooling has been growing in Arizona for years.

Article is a few years old.

 

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[snip]
Last Friday, while the country reeled from the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade, Arizona made history of a different sort. Legislators in the Grand Canyon State passed a universal school voucher bill that, once signed by Gov. Doug Ducey, will become the most wide-reaching school privatization plan in the country.

In his January State of the State address, Ducey called on Arizona lawmakers to send him bills that would "expand school choice any way we can," and the Republican-dominated legislature obliged, delivering last Friday's bill, which will open a preexisting program for Empowerment Scholarship Accounts (ESAs) up to the entire state. In practice, the law will now give parents who opt out of public schools a debit card for roughly $7,000 per child that can be used to pay for private school tuition, but also for much more: for religious schools, homeschool expenses, tutoring, online classes, education supplies and fees associated with "microschools"

"Every red state in the country should follow [Ducey's] lead," since the law "gives every family a right to exit any public school that fails to educate their children or reflect their values."

From Rhode Island, anti-CRT activist Nicole Solas, a fellow with the right-wing Independent Women's Forum, tweeted, "You know what happens when you abuse people? People leave you. Bye, public school."

"The Republican universal voucher system is designed to kill public education," tweeted former Arizona House Rep. Diego Rodriguez. "OUR nation's greatness is built on free Public schools. The GOP goal is to recreate segregation, expand the opportunity gap, and destroy the foundation of our democracy."

"I think it's a very serious mistake and the result will be that, within a decade, Arizona will have a very, very poorly educated adult population," added Carol Corbett Burris, executive director of the Network for Public Education. "Maybe that's the game."

"One of the things people never fully comprehend is how far privatization advocates want to take things," he said. "They want to get rid of all public funding for education. Eventually vouchers will die off too." What will remain, he argues, will be a self-funded primary education system, funded by a lending market much as colleges are. Or as Lewis says, a "system of haves and have-nots."

[snip]

At this point, every post I put in the breaking news section feels like I'm documenting the rise of Christian Nationalism. It seems like every day...a little piece of our society is stripped away. A little closer to their vision of theocratic fascism. On it's own...this is not a huge deal. But take in the context of current events this is just one more chip away.
Ho shit… this CRT scare is scarily successful.
 

Slyfox696

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Nobody is saying the public schools should indoctrinate children with anything other than ability to read, write, do math, understand enough science to understand possibilities, understand all the history of this country and what makes America exceptional etc.
You literally bragged about the ways your public school indoctrinated you.
But neither should the public school that the local community pays for make the values of that local community unwelcome.
Well that depends entirely on the values of that local community. If the local community is 40% comprised of KKK members, are you saying that the 20% African American population in the school should be subjected to those teachings?
Christmas is a national holiday for instance.
Hello results of indoctrination.
A child's faith should not be forced on others
Like, say....having a prayer before every school wide assembly?
but neither should it be made unwelcome in the public school where the child spends a good many hours of his/her week.
There is no law that I'm aware of which prevents a child from praying on their own or organizing an extra-curricular prayer gathering. What SHOULDN'T happen, however, is the public school forcing religion onto its students, indoctrinating them into whatever the religion of choice may be. And taxpayer dollars CERTAINLY should not go to a private school seeking to indoctrinate children with religious myths.
To offer a generic, non denominational prayer that comforts a majority does not hurt anybody not included in that majority and should not be denied to the majority.
I disagree, but even if you're correct, it is still indoctrination. *shrug*
My school put on a Christmas concert made up of all the middle school and high school choirs
Why Christmas concert? Why not a concert celebrating an Islamic holiday? Why do you think that choice was made?
and, among some secular and traditional Christmas Carols did a complete performance of Handel's "Messiah."
So...you performed overtly religious music? And you don't think you were being indoctrinated?
People from miles around, Christians, Jews, Atheists, that Buddhist family, all came. It was the high point of the Christmas season in that part of our world. That is not indoctrination.
:ROFLMAO:

You're being taught a choral work which is explicitly written from the Bible. That is 100% indoctrination. How can you be so blind as to not see how laughable your claims are that you were not indoctrinated?
That is exposing people to the magnificence of classical music
What is the subject of Handel's Messiah?
and sharing in a positive and beautiful experience. No one was harmed in any way.
"Harm" has nothing to do with "indoctrination". I'm not sure if you fully understand the meaning of the word.
You said before that you had never heard of Thomas Sowell. That may be part of the problem here.
I doubt it. Anyone who chooses to be a member of the Hoover Institution at Stanford is not someone I'm inclined to take seriously.
To read his thinking on economics, race, culture, politics, education is to almost get a complete education in itself. There are other authors I could also recommend that provide excellent insights into problems, possibilities, solutions.
How about Benjamin Bloom? Are you familiar with his work? How about Robert Marzano? What about Derrick Bell or Richard Delgado? How much do you know of their work?
Read through the first dozen paragraph so of this particular work and you will understand more of how Sowell thinks
No thanks, for the reason listed above.
The closing paragraph: "We cannot recapture the past and there is much in the past that we should not want to recapture. But neither is it irrelevant. If nothing else, history shows what can be achieved, even in the face of adversity. We have no excuse for achieving less in an era of greater material abundance and greater social opportunities."
“Education leads to enlightenment. Enlightenment opens the way to empathy. Empathy foreshadows reform.” - Derrick Bell.

We can play the empty quote game all day long. I'd prefer not to though.
 

AlbqOwl

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You literally bragged about the ways your public school indoctrinated you.

Well that depends entirely on the values of that local community. If the local community is 40% comprised of KKK members, are you saying that the 20% African American population in the school should be subjected to those teachings?

Hello results of indoctrination.

Like, say....having a prayer before every school wide assembly?

There is no law that I'm aware of which prevents a child from praying on their own or organizing an extra-curricular prayer gathering. What SHOULDN'T happen, however, is the public school forcing religion onto its students, indoctrinating them into whatever the religion of choice may be. And taxpayer dollars CERTAINLY should not go to a private school seeking to indoctrinate children with religious myths.

I disagree, but even if you're correct, it is still indoctrination. *shrug*

Why Christmas concert? Why not a concert celebrating an Islamic holiday? Why do you think that choice was made?

So...you performed overtly religious music? And you don't think you were being indoctrinated?

:ROFLMAO:

You're being taught a choral work which is explicitly written from the Bible. That is 100% indoctrination. How can you be so blind as to not see how laughable your claims are that you were not indoctrinated?

What is the subject of Handel's Messiah?

"Harm" has nothing to do with "indoctrination". I'm not sure if you fully understand the meaning of the word.

I doubt it. Anyone who chooses to be a member of the Hoover Institution at Stanford is not someone I'm inclined to take seriously.

How about Benjamin Bloom? Are you familiar with his work? How about Robert Marzano? What about Derrick Bell or Richard Delgado? How much do you know of their work?

No thanks, for the reason listed above.

“Education leads to enlightenment. Enlightenment opens the way to empathy. Empathy foreshadows reform.” - Derrick Bell.

We can play the empty quote game all day long. I'd prefer not to though.
Sorry but when you chop up the conversation like that taking statements out of their full context, it becomes more tedious than I choose to deal with. And the discussion has become circular and I believe I have addressed all the points you have made. We won't agree on this one.

I do applaud Arizona's experiment with unrestricted vouchers that put the education options for school children back into the hands of parents. It will likely take some time to determine the overall effect the new system will have.

And you still should read Thomas Sowell, at least the essay I linked. It provides a perspective that should not be ignored by anybody, public or private, involved in the education of children.
 

AlbqOwl

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If you want to pay extra for your child to be indoctrinated by their school in your faith (be it Christian, Muslim, Satanist or whatever) that is your choice. Taxpayers should not pay one penny of that cost.
Agreed. Nor should taxpayers pay one penny to have their children indoctrinated with CRT, transgendering, sexual orientation at a tender age or any other SJW, 'woke' social engineering doctrines. Again my school acknowledged the existence of religious beliefs and faith in God but I could not tell you the religious or political beliefs of any of my teachers. They encouraged no religious doctrine or practices but allowed the students to have them. The school did no indoctrination of religion. It simply allowed it to exist within the student body as it was a part of who the student body was. It was a healthy thing and not in the least bit coercive.

I am not Catholic but have no problem if the Catholic parents want their faith reinforced in the school so long as the school provides a solid basic education in all core subject material. Even some Protestant parents enroll their kids in a great Catholic school because of the superior education opportunity it offers. That does not harm you or any other taxpayer in the least. If religious education was all the school offered it would not be eligible for taxpayer $ anyway.
 

element94

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[snip]
Last Friday, while the country reeled from the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade, Arizona made history of a different sort. Legislators in the Grand Canyon State passed a universal school voucher bill that, once signed by Gov. Doug Ducey, will become the most wide-reaching school privatization plan in the country.

In his January State of the State address, Ducey called on Arizona lawmakers to send him bills that would "expand school choice any way we can," and the Republican-dominated legislature obliged, delivering last Friday's bill, which will open a preexisting program for Empowerment Scholarship Accounts (ESAs) up to the entire state. In practice, the law will now give parents who opt out of public schools a debit card for roughly $7,000 per child that can be used to pay for private school tuition, but also for much more: for religious schools, homeschool expenses, tutoring, online classes, education supplies and fees associated with "microschools"

"Every red state in the country should follow [Ducey's] lead," since the law "gives every family a right to exit any public school that fails to educate their children or reflect their values."

From Rhode Island, anti-CRT activist Nicole Solas, a fellow with the right-wing Independent Women's Forum, tweeted, "You know what happens when you abuse people? People leave you. Bye, public school."

"The Republican universal voucher system is designed to kill public education," tweeted former Arizona House Rep. Diego Rodriguez. "OUR nation's greatness is built on free Public schools. The GOP goal is to recreate segregation, expand the opportunity gap, and destroy the foundation of our democracy."

"I think it's a very serious mistake and the result will be that, within a decade, Arizona will have a very, very poorly educated adult population," added Carol Corbett Burris, executive director of the Network for Public Education. "Maybe that's the game."

"One of the things people never fully comprehend is how far privatization advocates want to take things," he said. "They want to get rid of all public funding for education. Eventually vouchers will die off too." What will remain, he argues, will be a self-funded primary education system, funded by a lending market much as colleges are. Or as Lewis says, a "system of haves and have-nots."

[snip]

At this point, every post I put in the breaking news section feels like I'm documenting the rise of Christian Nationalism. It seems like every day...a little piece of our society is stripped away. A little closer to their vision of theocratic fascism. On it's own...this is not a huge deal. But take in the context of current events this is just one more chip away.

Right wing school privatization. Now that sounds like a plan to groom and indoctrinate.
 

Lycanthrope

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Liz needs to join the democrat party. She didn't support the party and gladly accepted the Pelosi appointment so she could hate on Trump. Republican voters didn't support the investigation, the hearing, the way Pelosi made the appointments, and not Cheney's joining the enemy.
Back in the 80s and 90s the litmus test for true conservatism in a candidate was for them to profess a belief in God.

In the present day GOP the litmus test is whether a candidate believes Trump's Big Lie.
 

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It begs the question, why are American schools so bad compared to schools in other Western countries? If the US is the greatest country in the world, surely it should have the best schools.

Culture. The culture in the US doesn't value education as much as other nations.
 

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I doubt it. But before you begin, how about you review the Arizona public school funding formula. After you do that, then read the rest of my post and it will make more sense why the things you said here are incorrect.


I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. I THINK you're trying to say if those ten students leave the district, then the school should only get $90,000. If that is the case, then I've already explained to you and others why this thinking is inaccurate (see the comment about A/C, custodians, etc.). If that's not the case, then I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

No, you get paid per student in attendance. That is an important distinction.

Let's say I have a one room school house. I have ten students who pay $10 a year. From that $100, I have to pay for water, electricity, a teacher, a cleaning person, books, building upkeep, etc. If two students leave, then I no longer have $100 but now only have $80. But I still have ALL the costs I had before. I just have less money to pay them.

I understand WHY you would think this, I'm just telling you it is incorrect.

No, again, that is not how it works. When the student withdraws from the public school, the public school no longer gets the $8,800 for that student. It does not come to the school at all. So there's no money left over, the money simply never shows up in the first place.

Again, I understand WHY you would think this, I'm just telling you it is incorrect. But you don't have to take my word for it, I've provided you with a link to the funding formula above. You can see for yourself.

No, it does not. The per student funding is determined by a formula which is set by the state government. A student withdrawing does not change the formula.

In other words, your thinking is similar to the idea that the state has a pool of money they give to the school at the beginning of the year and then if students leave, the state just continues pulling from that same pool of money. That is not accurate. What actually happens is the school says "We had this many students for this many days" and the state says, "Okay, then based on the formula, you get this amount of money".

As I've said multiple times, I understand WHY you think the way you do, but it is incorrect. But you are certainly welcome to review the Arizona funding formula yourself. Just pay particular attention to the following part in the document:

"The base level amount is set by state legislatures in the Arizona Revised Statutes and equals $3,267.72 per weighted student count for FY2011. The weighted count is the outcome of the student count multiplied by certain weights set by state legislatures in statute which vary depending on the number of student count. Student count for districts is defined as, the prior year’s 100th day Average Daily Membership and for charters, as the current year’s 100th day Average Daily Membership."


Because you know you have no valid argument against them, especially since you, in essence, have said things which agree with them.

You are making provably false statements about how schools are funded to a public educator of nearly 15 years whose mother and grandfather were both school superintendents literally responsible for their district's financial management. School funding simply does not work the way you seem to think it works. But, again, you don't have to take my word for it, review the Arizona public school funding formula yourself.

And then get back to me with your mea culpa. And if you'd like, I could direct you to how Missouri's ADA is calculated as well.
Your post is ****ing dumb. You I'll stop with you thinking that you need funding for 100 students for 90. I'm not going waste my time seeing you repeat the same idiotic mistakes over and over in your tiny one sentence soundbites, like it's some kind of children's book that needs everything broken up.
 

Fishking

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If the private schools are given tax-payer monies, they it should come with the same stipulations as the public institutions. Otherwise, it's just sweetheart money . . .
No it isn't. It's money for parents to choose a better school for their kids. Those schools then use that money to operate their school and educate kids. It's not "sweetheart money".
 
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