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[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

Slyfox696

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I'll help you out with where you went wrong here.
I doubt it. But before you begin, how about you review the Arizona public school funding formula. After you do that, then read the rest of my post and it will make more sense why the things you said here are incorrect.

You don't need $100K to teach $90K worth of students.
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. I THINK you're trying to say if those ten students leave the district, then the school should only get $90,000. If that is the case, then I've already explained to you and others why this thinking is inaccurate (see the comment about A/C, custodians, etc.). If that's not the case, then I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
You get paid per student.
No, you get paid per student in attendance. That is an important distinction.
So the school still get the amount need to teach each student
Let's say I have a one room school house. I have ten students who pay $10 a year. From that $100, I have to pay for water, electricity, a teacher, a cleaning person, books, building upkeep, etc. If two students leave, then I no longer have $100 but now only have $80. But I still have ALL the costs I had before. I just have less money to pay them.

I understand WHY you would think this, I'm just telling you it is incorrect.
and, in fact, they are getting even more for each student that gets pulled because the voucher is only $7K, so they get an extra $1,800 for those that remain.
No, again, that is not how it works. When the student withdraws from the public school, the public school no longer gets the $8,800 for that student. It does not come to the school at all. So there's no money left over, the money simply never shows up in the first place.

Again, I understand WHY you would think this, I'm just telling you it is incorrect. But you don't have to take my word for it, I've provided you with a link to the funding formula above. You can see for yourself.
Each student pulled increases the per student funding.
No, it does not. The per student funding is determined by a formula which is set by the state government. A student withdrawing does not change the formula.

In other words, your thinking is similar to the idea that the state has a pool of money they give to the school at the beginning of the year and then if students leave, the state just continues pulling from that same pool of money. That is not accurate. What actually happens is the school says "We had this many students for this many days" and the state says, "Okay, then based on the formula, you get this amount of money".

As I've said multiple times, I understand WHY you think the way you do, but it is incorrect. But you are certainly welcome to review the Arizona funding formula yourself. Just pay particular attention to the following part in the document:

"The base level amount is set by state legislatures in the Arizona Revised Statutes and equals $3,267.72 per weighted student count for FY2011. The weighted count is the outcome of the student count multiplied by certain weights set by state legislatures in statute which vary depending on the number of student count. Student count for districts is defined as, the prior year’s 100th day Average Daily Membership and for charters, as the current year’s 100th day Average Daily Membership."

I'll not respond to the rest of your posts
Because you know you have no valid argument against them, especially since you, in essence, have said things which agree with them.
demonstrate your inability to grasp basic concepts, like funding, as shown above.
You are making provably false statements about how schools are funded to a public educator of nearly 15 years whose mother and grandfather were both school superintendents literally responsible for their district's financial management. School funding simply does not work the way you seem to think it works. But, again, you don't have to take my word for it, review the Arizona public school funding formula yourself.

And then get back to me with your mea culpa. And if you'd like, I could direct you to how Missouri's ADA is calculated as well.
 

Slyfox696

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It begs the question, why are American schools so bad compared to schools in other Western countries? If the US is the greatest country in the world, surely it should have the best schools.

It's not the schools which are the issue. It is society.

There was a study out of Stanford (I believe it was Stanford) that shows when you adjust for the socio-economic differences of America and other developed countries, American public schools are in or about the Top 5 in the world (if I recall correctly, it's been a while since I looked at it). The issue is not the schools, but rather the society at large. And this thread is a great example of one of the issues public schools deal with in America.
 

noonereal

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It seems like every day...a little piece of our society is stripped away. A little closer to their vision of theocratic fascism. On it's own...this is not a huge deal. But take in the context of current events this is just one more chip away.

Our age of enlightenment going dark. One law at a time, one SCOTUS ruling at a time.
 

Chomsky

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while your prediction is absolutely accurate, there is nothing to indicate private schools will be obligated to accept all students


If the private schools are given tax-payer monies, they it should come with the same stipulations as the public institutions. Otherwise, it's just sweetheart money . . .
 

gbg3

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So claiming public schools are failing because of the Johnnys in the world is disingeneous, correct?
I don't recall saying they're failing. I happen to think school choice is a great thing and they (public schools) can and should compete. As I already mentioned in this thread, some public schools have very good results and parents clamor to live in those districts and have their kids attend those schools.
So they offer scholarships to kids who are already successful? I mean, that's fine, but it's hard to say that makes private schools better than public.
Some of the schools doing that are the best of the best and very high percentages of their students go on to excellent colleges and have excellent career outcomes. These schools are better than almost any public school and the children offered these scholarships will very likely have a better outcome than they would in a public school.
How are they going to get to this school? If parents are in jail or on drugs, no one can afford to drive and there's no buses...how is the student getting to the school?
They are bused. Part of the scholarship situation is transportation to and from the child's home. Typically, the buses are more of a van like vehicle. This transportation is available to all the students whether or not the student is there on a scholarship or paying full tuition. Many of the parents do take and pick up their children, but a parent of any student of the school, rich and paying full tuition or poor and on scholarship, can opt to have their child bused - even if they live an hour or so away.
 

WorldWatcher

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I have a question for the class.

Let’s say a school system has to buy a $200,000 bus to carry 75 students and the bus driver gets paid $15.00 per hour.

Question #1 If the number of students is reduced to 73, what is the impact on the capital expense for the bus?

Question 2 If the number of students is reduced to 73, what is the impact on the cost of the bus driver at $15.00 per hour?

WW
 

iguanaman

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We've never been a less Christian society than we are today. Giving parents the choice of where to send their kids to school is not fascism, not even a little. What's closer to fascism is trying to force a state-run public education on all children that feeds them a very specific message of indoctrination.
And that is a good thing. The last thing a modern nation need to be competitive in the 21st century is a population of religious zealots living in the past. State run public education built this nation and lifted millions out of poverty. You just want a population of sheep that follow any leader no matter how corrupt. The opiate for the people that keeps them voting against their own best interests. Religion does not belong in the classroom and indoctrinating children in religion should be a crime. Let them choose what they believe when they are old enough to make those decisions.
 

Slyfox696

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If the private schools are given tax-payer monies, they it should come with the same stipulations as the public institutions. Otherwise, it's just sweetheart money . . .
That's exactly what this is. They are taxpayer funded schools that do not have to abide by many educational laws. It's absurd.
 

Slyfox696

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I don't recall saying they're failing.
That was the discussion you interjected into. But I do appreciate your acknowledgement that many public schools do well.
They are bused.
Very very few private schools have busing.
but a parent of any student of the school, rich and paying full tuition or poor and on scholarship, can opt to have their child bused - even if they live an hour or so away.
Please cite your source that this is universal in Arizona's private schools. Because I find it VERY difficult to believe.
 

trouble13

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How many ideologies do you think are promoted in the best public education systems in the world? China, Singapore, Hong Kong, does ideology inhibit education there? They consistantly outperform all other school kids in the big three; math, reading and science. And dont go the Asian route, the top ten is rounded out with Finland, Canada and Estonia.
The ideology excuse is just smoke. It serves the rightist agenda, gets them all grim and seething but its bullshit.
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't but communities have the right to decide upon what materials they want their children exposed to, with or without your approval.
 

vesper

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Good for Arizona.
If things were as they are today when my kids were young, I would not have sent them to a public school. Period. Fortunately, they received a solid foundation of a liberal arts education which produces critical thinkers. That is not the case today. Vouchers will help the poorest kids most as they can pursue a far more superior education than what they get these days in public schools.
 

trouble13

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Ahh! How interesting.

Well there are now at least two teachers in this thread who are telling you it is not true.

Do you have specific examples? Do you realize why it matters that you not just accept what politicians tell you and instead that you should listen to the people who do this day in and day out?
Teachers have a vested interest in the topic why should I trust their opinions any more than I trust other opinions? They have not been neutral on the topic.
 

gbg3

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That was the discussion you interjected into. But I do appreciate your acknowledgement that many public schools do well.

Very very few private schools have busing.

Please cite your source that this is universal in Arizona's private schools. Because I find it VERY difficult to believe.
In the same way some of our nation's top universities (including the Ivy Leagues) offer tremendous opportunities (tuition free for families making under $68,000 per year) to the nation's exceptionally talented and very poor students, K-12 top schools do the same. There are many categories of private schools but the kind that tend to charge tuition comparable to college tuition, tend to offer these programs and are, in fact, extremely proud of these programs. They also offer quite reduced tuition to the children of their teachers.
I have a neighbor who teaches at a school like I've described and, again, these are programs these schools are proud of and consider a good way of "giving back". This category of university and this category of private K-12 private school can well afford to do this and it's an important part of their mission.
I never said "this is universal in Arizona's private schools" or "universal" in any state's private schools. Private schools are not all the same and certainly not all the same in cost or offerings of this nature.
 

trouble13

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I've already discussed this multiple times, but this is not true.

The state of Arizona spent $8,800 per public school pupil last year. If the student withdraws from public school and goes to private school, the state provides $7,000 voucher, but does NOT provide the $8,800 to the public school.

So what happens to that other $1,800?
I am under the impression that the remaining money continues to go the public schools. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
No because what happens to those who lack the resources to take advantage of the program? Their school receives less funding, which makes their education more difficult to achieve.
Less students requires less funding.
You're creating a government sponsored two tier system, where those who already have certain advantages are being granted more resources at the expense of those who need more assistance.
What about the students who are being held back because of those students who require special assistance? Don't those students deserve the opportunity to reach their full potential and doesn't them reaching that pinnacle better society as a whole?

Not challenging these kids creates boredom and that also creates problems.
Because it just took $8,800 from the public school for every student that leaves. And as I explained to other posters, the school has certain expenditures that simply don't change if a student leaves. For example, if you have 10 classrooms and 2 custodians for 100 students and 10 students leave...you still need to air condition 10 classrooms and you still need 2 custodians. But now you have $88,000 less in financial resources to do it. This means that cuts have to be made elsewhere, which affects the education provided to the poorer students who are not capable of taking advantage of the program.
I see what your saying but im skeptical of it being exactly as you describe it. I have not seen evidence to support that remaining $1800 does not stay in the public schools. Also let's please acknowledge that with less students the operating costs also go down with it. They need less books, less AC, less teachers, less classroom space, etc...

Also it allows the class to move at a pace more appropriate for the remaining students. Teachers can spend the extra time on the lessons giving students trouble instead of just pushing students through the grade. This allows for the students at the bottom to receive better educations too.
 

gbg3

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Please cite your source that this is universal in Arizona's private schools. Because I find it VERY difficult to believe.
Here is some general info about the types of programs and scholarships I'm discussing. While your discussion topic may have been AZ, I was discussing high end private schools in general. I would imagine there are a few private schools in AZ which offer full scholarships to very talented children from families with very limited resources.

"Turn to the School First

An estimated 28% of private school students nationwide receive some form of financial aid, according to the Education Data Initiative, and that number is even higher at some schools. At Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts, for example, 46% of students receive financial aid and 12% receive full scholarships, according to the school's website."


If you chose to read this linked article, you'll see it also mentions the Dalton school in NYC. I went to their website and found this. As I discussed, these types of schools are committed to and proud of their scholarship programs - meant to give very poor, very talented children a leg up in life. Ivy League Universities have the same perspective.

"Financial aid, based on the demonstrated need of a family, is available to supplement family resources for those whose ability to pay school costs is limited. Dalton is strongly committed to a generously-funded tuition assistance program that is designed to ensure that our educational offerings are open to academically qualified applicants regardless of their family's ability to afford the full tuition. Through our commitment to financial aid that is strictly need-based, we strive to maintain a socio-economically diverse student body and to ensure that our process of allocating aid is fair and equitable. "
 

trouble13

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I have a question for the class.

Let’s say a school system has to buy a $200,000 bus to carry 75 students and the bus driver gets paid $15.00 per hour.

Question #1 If the number of students is reduced to 73, what is the impact on the capital expense for the bus?

Question 2 If the number of students is reduced to 73, what is the impact on the cost of the bus driver at $15.00 per hour?

WW
I'm sure that scenario exists in certain situations but on the flip side what about the scenarios where the school has 76 students to bus but can only carry 75. Those schools need an extra bus for 1 student.
 

braindrain

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Wouldnt it be even better to make the publuc schools not horrible? Public schools work just fine in plenty of places.
Usually this prejudice against public schools is either from believing the private sector is preferrable in every case or believing that anything involving a union is leftist socialist propaganda. Is that why you think public schools dont work?

Heres the top ten education systems according to PISA, the Programme for International Student Assesment. Every one of them does it with public schools. And if theres any whiff of propaganda in any of them it would be in the best of them.

PISA 2018 – Average Score of Mathematics, Science and Reading:


1.China (Beijing, Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang)578.7
2.Singapore556.3
3.Macao542.3
4.Hong Kong, China530.7
5.Estonia525.3
6.Japan520.0
7.South Korea519.7
8.Canada516.7
Taiwan516.7
10.Finland516.3
I would be super happy to make our public schools better. Unfortunately have you seen the push back that comes from public schools anytime a possible fix other the simply paying teachers more is suggested.

Your opinion of what makes people be unhappy with public schools is nothing more then your opinion Many people are disgusted with public schools because the see the fact that we pay more per student then the majority of countries but yet are no where near the top. They also see a union that puts teachers unrest’s ahead of students interest. And teachers unions that struggle to fire teachers no matter how crappy they are. Including teachers that have sexual assaulted students.

But I get you want to pretend it is all propaganda. That way you can ignore reality.
 
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AlbqOwl

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As opposed to the liberty of a religious school that feeds them a very different flavor of indoctrination.
The difference being that the parents choose what sort of 'indoctrination' they want their children to have. It is wonderful that parents can choose a school whether their children's faith will not be made unwelcome, where there is reinforcement of the faith and the values the parents and teachers mutually share.
 

justabubba

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Good for Arizona.
If things were as they are today when my kids were young, I would not have sent them to a public school. Period. Fortunately, they received a solid foundation of a liberal arts education which produces critical thinkers. That is not the case today.
Vouchers will help the poorest kids most as they can pursue a far more superior education than what they get these days in public schools.
let's look at the poorest family with two children of school age
assume $12000 is the cost of private school, while the $7000 subsidy voucher is made available for each of the two students. that poorest family will have to come up with $10,000 in after tax income to be able to afford to send their kids to the private school
each kid goes to a different private school and neither provides transportation for its students
now that poorest family is going to have to ante up some more after-tax income to pay the uber/taxi fees for two kids 180 days per year. 720 trips total for the two kids combined
private schools often impose a uniform code for student apparel. if so, that would again tap into the already poor family's after-tax income
now let's say it is a single parent family, having a single income, making it qualify for the poorest family. we have tallied just about $9/hr of the single parent's income, just for the above items. we have not added the cost of lunch, which would be 360 meals per year. they would require school supplies if they were in public school, so that line item will not be added
by doing this simple math exercise, i hope you are able to now recognize that your belief that "Vouchers will help the poorest kids most as they can pursue a far more superior education than what they get these days in public schools" is not actually a valid statement
 

AlbqOwl

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The Tree of Freeberty must occasionally be watered with stupidity, religious extremism, and greed.
I was blessed to go to public school in a small town where school board members, teachers, administrators, and parents shared common values, where the class president led the student body in an inclusive generic prayer at assemblies, where we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning and would not think of disrespecting the flag, where we were allowed a moment of silence to start the school day or when some bad news was announced.

God of whatever faiths/denominations were represented was welcome there as were national holidays and recognition of Christmas, Easter, Hannukuh. We sang some traditional religious hymns in our choral concerts.

To this day I cannot tell you what the religious beliefs of any of my teachers were or what their political leanings were. But we got an education in all basic subjects and a few electives that allowed us to compete with anybody anywhere. And had any board member, teacher or administrator pushed CRT or suggested gender pronouns are inappropriate or and of this transgender or other PC stuff, he/she would have been gone very quickly I am sure.

When the public schools indoctrinate instead of educating the kids, the parents should have every right to pull their kids out of public schools and put them in a school that educates, nurtures, inspires, promotes critical thinking. And they should not have to pay for public schools that won't.
 

Slyfox696

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Maybe it is and maybe it isn't but communities have the right to decide upon what materials they want their children exposed to, with or without your approval.
Within reason, yes. But what we're seeing is that communities are having that right taken away from them by state politicians. I don't think there's a better example of that than what is happening down in Florida.
Teachers have a vested interest in the topic why should I trust their opinions any more than I trust other opinions? They have not been neutral on the topic.
What do you mean we have a vested interest in the topic? Of indoctrination? What vested interest do we have in that?

Think about what you're alleging...that there is some nationwide conspiracy between all public school teachers, who fortunately all have the same political beliefs, to convince all children to think exactly the way that apparently all public school teachers identically think. It's an absurd theory.

I work in a very Republican area of an increasingly Republican state. The idea there is some kind of liberal indoctrination going on in my school district is laughable, especially since three of the last four superintendents (and maybe four of four, I'm not certain) all identify as conservative.

But think another way about what you're saying...you're trusting people who have zero knowledge or experience in the field over those who go to work every day, despite the fact that those who do not have experience in the field are only saying these things because it serves their political/financial agenda. Choosing to believe the ones who don't know what they're talking about, but say it anyways to make money, over those who are the experts is just a really poor life decision.
 

Slyfox696

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In the same way some of our nation's top universities (including the Ivy Leagues) offer tremendous opportunities (tuition free for families making under $68,000 per year) to the nation's exceptionally talented and very poor students, K-12 top schools do the same. There are many categories of private schools but the kind that tend to charge tuition comparable to college tuition, tend to offer these programs and are, in fact, extremely proud of these programs. They also offer quite reduced tuition to the children of their teachers. I have a neighbor who teaches at a school like I've described and, again, these are programs these schools are proud of and consider a good way of "giving back". This category of university and this category of private K-12 private school can well afford to do this and it's an important part of their mission.
But, since these are private schools, these programs you're talking about are, by necessity, very limited in nature. Either they are limited in the amount of money they extend or they are limited in the amount of students they accept. Because it is a private school and they have to pay the bills somehow.
I never said "this is universal in Arizona's private schools" or "universal" in any state's private schools. Private schools are not all the same and certainly not all the same in cost or offerings of this nature.
That's the point I was making...busing rarely happens in private schools.
 

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let's look at the poorest family with two children of school age
assume $12000 is the cost of private school, while the $7000 subsidy voucher is made available for each of the two students. that poorest family will have to come up with $10,000 in after tax income to be able to afford to send their kids to the private school
each kid goes to a different private school and neither provides transportation for its students
now that poorest family is going to have to ante up some more after-tax income to pay the uber/taxi fees for two kids 180 days per year. 720 trips total for the two kids combined
private schools often impose a uniform code for student apparel. if so, that would again tap into the already poor family's after-tax income
now let's say it is a single parent family, having a single income, making it qualify for the poorest family. we have tallied just about $9/hr of the single parent's income, just for the above items. we have not added the cost of lunch, which would be 360 meals per year. they would require school supplies if they were in public school, so that line item will not be added
by doing this simple math exercise, i hope you are able to now recognize that your belief that "Vouchers will help the poorest kids most as they can pursue a far more superior education than what they get these days in public schools" is not actually a valid statement
Except most of the private and parochial schools have scholarship assistance for those who need it. And home schooling is quite affordable for pretty much everybody. There is no government program anywhere on the planet that is going to be suitable for every single person. But to force kids to stay in a public school that doesn't even try to educate anymore is inhumane.

How do we know that most public schools aren't doing the job they should be doing? U.S. ranks 38th in math scores and 24th in science globally. Far below average in reading. And we are at or second from the top in student per capita spending on education.
 

trouble13

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Within reason, yes. But what we're seeing is that communities are having that right taken away from them by state politicians. I don't think there's a better example of that than what is happening down in Florida.

What do you mean we have a vested interest in the topic? Of indoctrination? What vested interest do we have in that?

Think about what you're alleging...that there is some nationwide conspiracy between all public school teachers, who fortunately all have the same political beliefs, to convince all children to think exactly the way that apparently all public school teachers identically think. It's an absurd theory.

I work in a very Republican area of an increasingly Republican state. The idea there is some kind of liberal indoctrination going on in my school district is laughable, especially since three of the last four superintendents (and maybe four of four, I'm not certain) all identify as conservative.

But think another way about what you're saying...you're trusting people who have zero knowledge or experience in the field over those who go to work every day, despite the fact that those who do not have experience in the field are only saying these things because it serves their political/financial agenda. Choosing to believe the ones who don't know what they're talking about, but say it anyways to make money, over those who are the experts is just a really poor life decision.
First let me say I meant no offense to teachers. My point is that teachers just like everyone carry their own bias. We should not dismiss other opinions just because a pair of teachers hold a different opinion. Being a teacher does not automatically make you right.
 
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