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[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

Bodi

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trouble13

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Example and why it matters?
I don't have any examples because I have never seen an example of the claim but I know for instance Florida banned schools from using several math books based on that claim.

Imo it matters if only one ideology is promoted. It is counterproductive to developing critical thinking skills
 

Slyfox696

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I believe that you believe that but it does not mean you are right.
No, the fact I'm telling you that's why means I am right. Only I know my reason and I'm telling you my reason I'm against it.
Obviously kids like Johnny hurt schools. And in many ways other then just in test scores. That is why I want parents to have the option to get their kids out of schools that have a bunch of johnnys in them.
So the problem is not public schools failing? But rather society failing education? Like I've said?
And if you think that the parents of kids like Johnny are going to be going through the extra effort to send their kids to private school then you are just living in fantasy land.
Ahh, so what you're saying is that these vouchers are NOT good for children, unless they already have a supportive and stable family, the kind of family that studies repeatedly show are already more likely to succeed in school?

Johnny is showing why everything you're saying holds no real weight. It's not public school, it's the Johnnys. Tese vouchers aren't helping kids, they're making it more difficult for parents, which means only kids who already have a leg up can benefit.

It is a government sponsored class system being implemented and your own words support that. So do you not care about the children of poor families? Because they are the ones who will be negatively affected by this, by having their schools lose funding.
You claim that you don’t like the idea of that since we can’t help all the kids then we should help none of them
I'm saying this actively HURTS the education of children. You agree the private school can do no better of a job educating, but now you're taking money away from education. You're actively hurting education.
 

Bodi

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I don't have any examples because I have never seen an example of the claim but I know for instance Florida banned schools from using several math books based on that claim.

Imo it matters if only one ideology is promoted. It is counterproductive to developing critical thinking skills
So it could be nothing more than a political boogeyman ...
 

trouble13

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No, the fact I'm telling you that's why means I am right. Only I know my reason and I'm telling you my reason I'm against it.

So the problem is not public schools failing? But rather society failing education? Like I've said?

Ahh, so what you're saying is that these vouchers are NOT good for children, unless they already have a supportive and stable family, the kind of family that studies repeatedly show are already more likely to succeed in school?

Johnny is showing why everything you're saying holds no real weight. It's not public school, it's the Johnnys. Tese vouchers aren't helping kids, they're making it more difficult for parents, which means only kids who already have a leg up can benefit.

It is a government sponsored class system being implemented and your own words support that. So do you not care about the children of poor families? Because they are the ones who will be negatively affected by this, by having their schools lose funding.

I'm saying this actively HURTS the education of children. You agree the private school can do no better of a job educating, but now you're taking money away from education. You're actively hurting education.
1. You claim that it removes funding from education but that isn't true. It is more accurate to say that it redirects funding from the public system to the private one.

2. You say that only kids who have a leg up benefit (debatable claim), isn't that alone enough of an argument to support vouchers? If it benefits student it should be available to them.

3. You also claims it harms poor students explain how?
 

Grand Mal

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You know what ensures no one in lower incomes get in? $0.
Forget it. Those private schools that outperform public schools arent going to open their doors to all those mediocre students who suddenly have vouchers in their sweaty hands. They sell exclusivity to people who can afford to pay for it and their wealthy clientelle are more important to them than any bourgeois sense of fairness. If they do find themselves with empty seats for the upcoming semester they'll award scholarships on a very selective basis. And they wont pack more seats into their classrooms and get all industrial about volume.
You will probably find private schools who will try to cash in on a voucher system, expand their facilities and hire more education degree grads and as they gradually shift their focus they'll gradually become undistinguishable from the public system today.
If what you want is government sponsorship into the elite, forget it. The moneyed elite will still be catered to, will still get the best that money can pay for. They want the educational advantage that their class considers their money to have bought them and they want their kids to have classmates from OKOP (our kind of people).
You're far better off trying to improve your public school system than trying to get your hands on what the top 5% have.
 

Grand Mal

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I don't have any examples because I have never seen an example of the claim but I know for instance Florida banned schools from using several math books based on that claim.

Imo it matters if only one ideology is promoted. It is counterproductive to developing critical thinking skills
How many ideologies do you think are promoted in the best public education systems in the world? China, Singapore, Hong Kong, does ideology inhibit education there? They consistantly outperform all other school kids in the big three; math, reading and science. And dont go the Asian route, the top ten is rounded out with Finland, Canada and Estonia.
The ideology excuse is just smoke. It serves the rightist agenda, gets them all grim and seething but its bullshit.
 

Slyfox696

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Says the person who, no matter the discussion, only argument is to defend public schools no matter how crappy they are.
I haven't done that. I'm saying public education as a whole is not crappy. You agree that private schools would do no better with the Johnnys of the world than public schools, so, again, maybe the failing isn't the public school system, but rather society.

You want to improve education? Let's take steps to improve our society. That's a FAR better way to improve education than creating a government sponsored two tiered system between the haves and the have nots.
Public pensions should be abolished. Your retirement isn’t my responsibility.
Great. Then pay us teachers what we're really worth and we won't defer any of our compensation to retirement. Which is what is happening now.
(And when you read from posters here that are public school teachers…keep in mind, THEIR retirement is going to be funded by public pensions that taxpayers
This is a lie. PSRS in Missouri is not funded at all by taxpayers.
, including the kids growing up now that may never set foot in a public classroom will pay…so they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo)
Or maybe we just actually care about children. Just because you may be selfish does not mean we're selfish.
If we abolished public pensions
Then you can pay teachers what they are actually worth. Deal?
, then we can get back to the topic of actually addressing the shortcomings in public education. These shortcomings are largely around adequate funding.
Or we could just fund education better. *shrug*
 

Slyfox696

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Kids that barely pass will be hard for any school to "save".
So claiming public schools are failing because of the Johnnys in the world is disingeneous, correct?
But I do happen to know that many a K-12 private school (especially the highest ranked ones) offer fully paid scholarships to high achieving kids with potential, but from home environments like Johnny's.
So they offer scholarships to kids who are already successful? I mean, that's fine, but it's hard to say that makes private schools better than public.
But the advantage of school choice for a child like that, is they can be placed in a school that is, for example, the opposite of a STEM school.
How are they going to get to this school? If parents are in jail or on drugs, no one can afford to drive and there's no buses...how is the student getting to the school?
 

Slyfox696

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the alarm i had upon reading that ^ experience was how the hell did he get into college if he was unable to correctly write his own name?

and why would you agree to attend a college that had such low acceptance standards?
It's almost as if the post was complete BS and not very believable.
 

Yes_Minister

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The only thing that's funny here is that public schools get out-performed by every single option out there.

How do single option American schools compare against schools in other Western countries?
 

Slyfox696

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It's no more incentivized than a secular private school. You know those exist, right?
Sure, but tend to be far less common. For example, look at this list of private high schools in Arizona and note how many of them are religious.

Nope. It's not taking money away from public school children. They still get the same $$ for each student they get now. In fact, a lot of public schools have issues with overcrowded classrooms, so this would help them. Further, it looks like, by your math, they actually come out ahead on $/student because everyone that takes their $7K gives leaves that extra $1,800 for a student that no longer goes there.
That's not at all how school funding works. You seem to be making the same mistake cpwill did.

Schools get paid per student per day of attendance. So if 100 students attend 100 days at a reimbursement rate of $10 a day, then the school receives $100,000 in funding (100 x 100 x10). But if only 90 students attend 100 days at $10 a day, then the school only receives $90,000 (90 x 100 x 10). So the school just lost $10,000 in our example.

Then you have to understand that money does not go directly to students, but rather the educational experience. This includes things like custodians, electricity, etc. If 10 students leave, the A/C costs are not dropping. The school is still needing to pay the same number of custodians.

So, yes, you're taking funding from schools under this model. You were incorrect about that.
They will get better results when they aren't worried about drug deals and gang activity, and other behaviors that are tolerated in school.
So what you're saying is the private school won't accept Johnny? So then...it's almost like this voucher program isn't really for all kids, but rather certain kids?

And you're saying that, since private schools get to pick and choose their kids, that is a better explanation for scores from private schools than the schools themselves are just so much better?
Nope...all the teachers like to out themselves on the internet.
This did not answer the question. "Who in public education do you think is teaching race essentialism?"
I understand it just fine. I'm saying the standards are off. Those need to change.
Public schools literally don't get to make those rules. That's on state and federal legislation. So instead of criticizing schools, shouldn't you be criticizing people like yourself for voting for people who made these laws? Schools cannot suspend or expel, like you claimed, nearly as easy as you suggested they should.
 

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If there is a market for it, it can be found.
Ignoring all other issues with this statement, it doesn't change the fact those parents don't actually have a choice, does it?
Yeah...parents won't get invested until you make them get invested. You kick their kid out of school and now they have to figure out what to do with them while going to work...there is your forcing mechanism. What doesn't get them invested is doing nothing and just allowing the kids to misbehave and disrupt the learning environment.
Well, again, then the fault is yours for voting for people who make it nearly impossible for schools to kick people out.

So what are you going to do about it? To what state legislator are you going to write? What Congress person are you going to petition?
If the law doesn't allow there to be reasonable standards, then change it.
And what legislator have you contacted to change it?
And by "stuff" I mean education. Public schools are ****ing terrible at it.
But they're not. Which we've already covered.
Yeah, they are all ****ing wrong because they don't know what they are talking about. That has been explained to them.
Nonsense. You're even acknowledging that I'm right on this. You agree this program will only help those who have the resources to take advantage of it. You're acknowledging that students with disabilities won't be able to choose their school like others. You're agreeing that the Johnnys of the world won't be allowed in the private school. You are acknowledging all the way this program sets up a government sponsored two tiered educational system, one which will serve to protect a class system already in place.
You know what can't be afforded? Paying $10K when you get $0.
You know what else can't be afforded? Paying $3,000 when you don't have the money to buy a car.
You've forgotten one thing for sure, and that is basic math. Also, you've apparently forgotten to write in multiple cogent thoughts and going beyond a single sentence statement is a big struggle for you. Now that I've shit all over your posts, I'll not respond again until you figure out how to write more concisely than your tedious bullshit.
Let's see...you made provably false statements about educational funding, you've agreed in principle this system cannot be taken advantage of by several groups of people, you acknowledge the vouchers will not cover the cost of the private education in most private schools thereby excluding another group of people, you've admitted public schools have to follow laws, and that private schools would do no better of a job educating Johnny than the public school.

It seems like to me the only times you weren't clearly proven wrong were when you clearly agreed with me. Which means this part of your post is rather laughable, isn't it?
 
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Slyfox696

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Apparently you also have no idea what the internet is, because it's all over it.
Your inability to discuss any particulars with actual teachers is noted.
 

Slyfox696

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I don't have any examples because I have never seen an example of the claim
Ahh! How interesting.

Well there are now at least two teachers in this thread who are telling you it is not true.
but I know for instance Florida banned schools from using several math books based on that claim.
Do you have specific examples? Do you realize why it matters that you not just accept what politicians tell you and instead that you should listen to the people who do this day in and day out?
 

Slyfox696

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1. You claim that it removes funding from education but that isn't true. It is more accurate to say that it redirects funding from the public system to the private one.
I've already discussed this multiple times, but this is not true.

The state of Arizona spent $8,800 per public school pupil last year. If the student withdraws from public school and goes to private school, the state provides $7,000 voucher, but does NOT provide the $8,800 to the public school.

So what happens to that other $1,800?
2. You say that only kids who have a leg up benefit (debatable claim), isn't that alone enough of an argument to support vouchers? If it benefits student it should be available to them.
No because what happens to those who lack the resources to take advantage of the program? Their school receives less funding, which makes their education more difficult to achieve.

You're creating a government sponsored two tier system, where those who already have certain advantages are being granted more resources at the expense of those who need more assistance.
3. You also claims it harms poor students explain how?
Because it just took $8,800 from the public school for every student that leaves. And as I explained to other posters, the school has certain expenditures that simply don't change if a student leaves. For example, if you have 10 classrooms and 2 custodians for 100 students and 10 students leave...you still need to air condition 10 classrooms and you still need 2 custodians. But now you have $88,000 less in financial resources to do it. This means that cuts have to be made elsewhere, which affects the education provided to the poorer students who are not capable of taking advantage of the program.
 
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Grand Mal

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I haven't done that. I'm saying public education as a whole is not crappy. You agree that private schools would do no better with the Johnnys of the world than public schools, so, again, maybe the failing isn't the public school system, but rather society.

You want to improve education? Let's take steps to improve our society. That's a FAR better way to improve education than creating a government sponsored two tiered system between the haves and the have nots.

Great. Then pay us teachers what we're really worth and we won't defer any of our compensation to retirement. Which is what is happening now.

This is a lie. PSRS in Missouri is not funded at all by taxpayers.

Or maybe we just actually care about children. Just because you may be selfish does not mean we're selfish.

Then you can pay teachers what they are actually worth. Deal?

Or we could just fund education better. *shrug*
That, highlighted, is a big part of the problem.
In a capitalism you get paid according to the value of what you produce. It was an easy calculation for my trade- the steel had a certain value when the truckload backed into the jobsite and another value when it was erected and the difference was the value of what I had produced. Same in umpteen other trades, value is a simple, subjective thing. With other professions its more objective. Cops, teachers, who decides the value of what they produce?
And the same people who advocate cheaping out on education and policing budgets complain about the quality of the people doing the jobs. They want people to do complicated, highstress jobs for minimal money and be grateful. And gawd forbid they should organize themselves into a bargaining unit to get health care benefits and pensions.
 

Slyfox696

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That, highlighted, is a big part of the problem.
I do not have large complaints about my overall compensation. However, part of what makes my compensation palatable is the Missouri retirement program. If it wasn't for that, I would have to think long and hard if I were to stay in my position, because Missouri teachers are not eligible for Social Security.
And the same people who advocate cheaping out on education and policing budgets complain about the quality of the people doing the jobs. They want people to do complicated, highstress jobs for minimal money and be grateful.
This. 100% this.
And gawd forbid they should organize themselves into a bargaining unit to get health care benefits and pensions.
These people watch movies like Dead Poet's Society and think that is how all teachers should be.
 

Fishking

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Forget it. Those private schools that outperform public schools arent going to open their doors to all those mediocre students who suddenly have vouchers in their sweaty hands.
They sell exclusivity to people who can afford to pay for it and their wealthy clientelle are more important to them than any bourgeois sense of fairness. If they do find themselves with empty seats for the upcoming semester they'll award scholarships on a very selective basis. And they wont pack more seats into their classrooms and get all industrial about volume.
You will probably find private schools who will try to cash in on a voucher system, expand their facilities and hire more education degree grads and as they gradually shift their focus they'll gradually become undistinguishable from the public system today.
If what you want is government sponsorship into the elite, forget it. The moneyed elite will still be catered to, will still get the best that money can pay for. They want the educational advantage that their class considers their money to have bought them and they want their kids to have classmates from OKOP (our kind of people).
No, I'm not going to forget it and let you move the goal post to some mad up bullshit you pulled out of your butthurt ass, like you did here.
You're far better off trying to improve your public school system than trying to get your hands on what the top 5% have.
No, there is nothing to be done with public schools. If this were not so, it would be done already. It's an over bloated and corrupted institution, through and through. The only thing to do is cut the rot out as much as possible.
 

Fishking

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How do single option American schools compare against schools in other Western countries?
What does that have to do with how shitty our public schools are?
 

Fishking

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That's not at all how school funding works. You seem to be making the same mistake cpwill did.

Schools get paid per student per day of attendance. So if 100 students attend 100 days at a reimbursement rate of $10 a day, then the school receives $100,000 in funding (100 x 100 x10). But if only 90 students attend 100 days at $10 a day, then the school only receives $90,000 (90 x 100 x 10). So the school just lost $10,000 in our example.

Then you have to understand that money does not go directly to students, but rather the educational experience. This includes things like custodians, electricity, etc. If 10 students leave, the A/C costs are not dropping. The school is still needing to pay the same number of custodians.

So, yes, you're taking funding from schools under this model. You were incorrect about that.
I'm going to delete all your other idiocy because your posting is ****ing dumb and a waste of time. Again, being unable to think beyond a sentence seems to be an issue for you. I'll help you out with where you went wrong here. You don't need $100K to teach $90K worth of students. It's the ratio that matters. You get paid per student. So the school still get the amount need to teach each student and, in fact, they are getting even more for each student that gets pulled because the voucher is only $7K, so they get an extra $1,800 for those that remain. Each student pulled increases the per student funding.

I'll not respond to the rest of your idiotic posts that are demonstratively wrong, and also demonstrate your inability to grasp basic concepts, like funding, as shown above.
 

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I have to say that I actually see the humor in this. Growing up near a very very liberal neighborhood (they called the police often if I parked on the Street one block away and left notes saying it brought their property values down) I supported John McCain in high school to be rebellious.

Dear God we need a commonality not race or gender or politics. We - my generation- always supported the troops because even if we hated the war we knew our friends were there and I really appreciated the sacrifices they made even though I wanted to punch the TV when I saw the first air raids. So I’m off for the weekend and this is a gloomy forum right now so there’s no good place to say this but I thought to anybody who I’ve shared a message with or offered my help to - have a good Fourth of July and even though you and I will be back on Monday, spend a moment thinking about someone you really hate this weekend and remember that you really hate them but you totally don’t want them to die.
my generation- always supported the troops because even if we hated the war we knew our friends were there and I really appreciated the sacrifices they made

I wonder how many Russians are saying the same thing about their friends destroying Ukraine cities.
 

Yes_Minister

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What does that have to do with how shitty our public schools are?

It begs the question, why are American schools so bad compared to schools in other Western countries? If the US is the greatest country in the world, surely it should have the best schools.

 
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