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[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

Grand Mal

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Yep that was at least in my case before the teacher's unions gained a stranglehold on the public schools Parents were more of an influence through the PTA. The problem with the public schools in my area at the time were mostly safety issues, too much drugs and too many fights including knife fights. That was the Los Angeles area. I certainly hope the Arizona Voucher system spreads to all states, for the sake of the chidlren, the public and private schools. If forced to compete, the public schools will improve.
Unions arent the problem. We have unions in Canada and our schools rank in the top ten between Taiwan and South Korea.


Maybe you could attract better people to teaching if they werent treated with contempt.
 

gbg3

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Johnny lives at home with three siblings (two brothers and one sister). Dad is in jail, mom is constantly hooking up and staying overnight with men who are providing her drugs. Johnny has no family support, is responsible for his siblings, has little to no food in the house, and virtually no time for the homework he doesn't want to do in the first place.

Johnny goes to public school and barely passes. Please tell me how sending him to a private school is going to improve Johnny's education, when dad will still be in jail, Mom will still be doing drugs and hooking up with random men, there still will be little to no food in the house, and there still will be no one to make Johnny do his homework he doesn't want to do because he's busy babysitting his siblings.

Please tell me how the private school will make Johnny a better student.
Kids that barely pass will be hard for any school to "save". But I do happen to know that many a K-12 private school (especially the highest ranked ones) offer fully paid scholarships to high achieving kids with potential, but from home environments like Johnny's. They aren't plentiful and the competition is fierce but they are oh so valuable and high achieving kids in a really rough situation (like Johnny) are exactly the kind of child they are meant for - and exactly how that child goes on to potentially alter an entire history of family poverty - going forth.
But as far as children who perform way below average from the youngest age, that student is challenging for any school and will likely struggle in public or private school. But the advantage of school choice for a child like that, is they can be placed in a school that is, for example, the opposite of a STEM school. I've always felt that each child, often each sibling, is completely different and it makes sense that even two brothers might be better off in two different schools - where their specific strengths can be strengthened rather than having one suffer in an environment that will never match them. School choice, by its very nature, helps facilitate that differentiation. That child who struggles mightily in math might excel on a musical instrument or working in carpentry or working on engines.
 

TomFitz

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The voucher would not give you enough to put your kid in an average private school.

It would leave you 5K short. They're perfectly okay creating a work for your schooling class of people.

The real purpose is to allow middle class white families that can’t quite afford private school to be able to at taxpayer’s expense.
 

LetsGoBrandon

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Unions arent the problem. We have unions in Canada and our schools rank in the top ten between Taiwan and South Korea.
I cannot speak for Canada. I can only speak for the US. Our public schools have a very poor record.Many who graduate lack the basic reading writing and mathmatic skills. This does not apply to all US public schools, however too many. One of my new classmates when I went to college could not even spell his own name. And there is the indoctrination aspect.
Maybe you could attract better people to teaching if they werent treated with contempt.
I am all for attracting thebest teachers, however we also need to be able to fire the bad ones. Once a teacher in an American public school is awarded tenure, it's very difficult to get rid of them. And the bad teachers are not the only problem. The school boards that think parents who are angry at some of the stuff being taught are domestc terrorists is another.
 

justabubba

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Kids that barely pass will be hard for any school to "save". But I do happen to know that many a K-12 private school (especially the highest ranked ones) offer fully paid scholarships to high achieving kids with potential, but from home environments like Johnny's. They aren't plentiful and the competition is fierce but they are oh so valuable and high achieving kids in a really rough situation (like Johnny) are exactly the kind of child they are meant for - and exactly how that child goes on to potentially alter an entire history of family poverty - going forth.
But as far as children who perform way below average from the youngest age, that student is challenging for any school and will likely struggle in public or private school. But the advantage of school choice for a child like that, is they can be placed in a school that is, for example, the opposite of a STEM school.
I've always felt that each child, often each sibling, is completely different and it makes sense that even two brothers might be better off in two different schools - where their specific strengths can be strengthened rather than having one suffer in an environment that will never match them. School choice, by its very nature, helps facilitate that differentiation. That child who struggles mightily in math might excel on a musical instrument or working in carpentry or working on engines.
please help me to understand your point

i do not see why the siblings are unable to develop their unique talents in the same school, only within different classrooms
why would it be so beneficial for them - and their families - to go to the effort of travelling to different destinations and interact with different school administrators?
 

justabubba

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I cannot speak for Canada. I can only speak for the US. Our public schools have a very poor record.Many who graduate lack the basic reading writing and mathmatic skills. This does not apply to all US public schools, however too many. One of my new classmates when I went to college could not even spell his own name. And there is the indoctrination aspect.

I am all for attracting thebest teachers, however we also need to be able to fire the bad ones. Once a teacher in an American public school is awarded tenure, it's very difficult to get rid of them. And the bad teachers are not the only problem. The school boards that think parents who are angry at some of the stuff being taught are domestc terrorists is another.
the alarm i had upon reading that ^ experience was how the hell did he get into college if he was unable to correctly write his own name?

and why would you agree to attend a college that had such low acceptance standards?
 

gbg3

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The more being many public schools also taught "practical" classes. Things like auto shop, metal shop, woodworking, agriculture, typing, home economics, etc.
Heck, at my school, there was a requirement to take a couple of these classes. Boys tended to choose metal and woodworking and girls (including me) tended to choose home ec and typing. Frankly, I loved home ec almost as much as loved my favorite class, math. And I learned things in home ec I've used throughout my life.
My dad made me take typing. Interestingly, it was because my aerospace engineer dad (whose impressive collection of slide rules, I still have) could imagine how important computers would become and that a keyboard would be an element of that computer driven future.
 

WorldWatcher

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Heck, at my school, there was a requirement to take a couple of these classes. Boys tended to choose metal and woodworking and girls (including me) tended to choose home ec and typing. Frankly, I loved home ec almost as much as loved my favorite class, math. And I learned things in home ec I've used throughout my life.
My dad made me take typing. Interestingly, it was because my aerospace engineer dad (whose impressive collection of slide rules, I still have) could imagine how important computers would become and that a keyboard would be an element of that computer driven future.

Ya, I was one of the only guys in my high school to take typing. I needed an elective and the only glass available at the right time was typing.

It's really paid off over the years as I essentially graduated high school as a generally good touch typist.

I got lucky though. 1/2 the typewriters were manual (you know the ones with swing arms moved be depressing the key) and the other 1/2 was IBM Selectrics (electric with the rotating ball). I was luck because you were randomly assigned to one type of machine at the beginning and then switched half-way through the semester. I started on the manual, and then moved the second half to the electric. Those that had to go the other way had a much harder time.

WW
 

gbg3

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Ya, I was one of the only guys in my high school to take typing. I needed an elective and the only glass available at the right time was typing.

It's really paid off over the years as I essentially graduated high school as a generally good touch typist.

I got lucky though. 1/2 the typewriters were manual (you know the ones with swing arms moved be depressing the key) and the other 1/2 was IBM Selectrics (electric with the rotating ball). I was luck because you were randomly assigned to one type of machine at the beginning and then switched half-way through the semester. I started on the manual, and then moved the second half to the electric. Those that had to go the other way had a much harder time.

WW
I wasn't very good in typing class and it was a bit humiliating for me because I was a very good student and figured typing class would almost be a joke in how easy I expected it to be.
There were a few boys in the class (probably for the same reason you described) but the girls tended to pick it up far faster than the boys. Except for me. I was hanging with the boys in terms of my typing speed. Some of those girls could type so fast, it amazed me.
These days, I'm pretty fast.
 

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Teachers are fired all the time. Hell, we fired a couple of teachers just this past April.

The idea there is no public accountability in education, either on a teacher or school or state level, is hilariously wrong. You can either accept it or not. But not accepting it means you are not intending to be taken seriously.

Schools are held accountable in all sorts of ways. We're accountable for test scores, for finances, for non-discrimination, etc. Teachers are reviewed and assessed numerous times. Hell, I spent MONTHS with the federal Department of Education reworking parts of our school website because they didn't like that we did not have an accessible navigation menu. Here is a link to the Missouri School Improvement Plan (MSIP) Comprehensive Guide. You'll note the first sentence literally says, "The sixth version of the Missouri School Improvement Program (MSIP 6), the state’s accountability system for reviewing and accrediting Local Education Agencies (LEAs), outlines the expectations for student achievement, with the goal of each student graduating success-ready for college, career, and life.". There is just ZERO factual basis to say there is no accountability in public education.

So either you want to be taken seriously or you want to post lies. Which is it?

As a long time school board member, I second every word you posted.
 

TomFitz

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Ya, I was one of the only guys in my high school to take typing. I needed an elective and the only glass available at the right time was typing.

It's really paid off over the years as I essentially graduated high school as a generally good touch typist.

I got lucky though. 1/2 the typewriters were manual (you know the ones with swing arms moved be depressing the key) and the other 1/2 was IBM Selectrics (electric with the rotating ball). I was luck because you were randomly assigned to one type of machine at the beginning and then switched half-way through the semester. I started on the manual, and then moved the second half to the electric. Those that had to go the other way had a much harder time.

WW

All ours were manual. That was back in the days when the executive secretaries got the Selectrics, and the typing pool banged away on manuals.
 

TomFitz

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I gave you a link in my prior post to 13 Baltimore high schools with zero students proficient in math.

Where is the accountability?



But not in the way that matters.



I have no doubt that lots of forms are being filled out, and reports are being written, and meetings are taking place. But in the end, the teachers and educrats are still getting their salaries, benefits, and gold-plated pensions.



Government-run schools are creating an enormous, permanent, ignorant, underclass. You can spin it any way you want, but the fact is we have cities full of illiterate and innumerate adults who are the product of government-run schools.

You are talking strickly in hoary old right wing stereotypes. Stuff I’ve been hearing for sixty years. And it predated that.

The stereotype about filling out forms.

Then the jab about inflated salaries and pensions. When, most teachers start at low wages, and generally only are able to advance in to middle class. Senior staff and superintendents are paid no more, and often less that most mid level managers in private businesses that are often much smaller institutions.

With reference to the Baltimore City Public Schools, the state is gradually taking over the system. So, there’s your accountability.

Government run schools may have created an enourmous, ignorant underclass. They voted for trump.
 

aociswundumho

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With reference to the Baltimore City Public Schools, the state is gradually taking over the system. So, there’s your accountability.

Lol, classic leftism. When government fails, the solution is more government.

Government run schools may have created an enourmous, ignorant underclass. They voted for trump.

In case you don't know, cities like Detroit and Baltimore aren't exactly maga country.
 

Fishking

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A $7,000 voucher won't even get you through the front door for the average private elementary and secondary school in Arizona!

The average tuition for the average private secondary school is over $15,000 in Arizona - so the only "somewhere else" lower income families can afford are "below average" private schools!
Ummm...that $7,000 dollars closer to where they need to be, and they don't have to be top level private schools. In Texas, the average cost is $10K, so that would cover most of it. It's the same for AZ, where this is taking place. Again, you have it 100% backwards. With that a lower income family could take advantage of a private school.
 

Fishking

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Pie in the sky. Private schools sell exclusivity to people who can pay for it and those people dont want their children squashed in with subsidised kids and dont want to give up the advantage a private school education gives. Every dollar allowed in vouchers would be a dollar increase in private school tuition. Those institutions are booked up for the next generation and they wont go all industrial, increasing production to meet demand.
You know what ensures no one in lower incomes get in? $0.
 

Captain Adverse

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Ummm...that $7,000 dollars closer to where they need to be, and they don't have to be top level private schools. In Texas, the average cost is $10K, so that would cover most of it. It's the same for AZ, where this is taking place. Again, you have it 100% backwards. With that a lower income family could take advantage of a private school.

Moreover, if there is a market for the service, a business model with form to fill it.

Then either the established private schools with modify costs in favor of more access to greater profits, or the market will create other competitors.
 

Fishking

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Yeah...the UK doesn't have school shootings because people don't want to do them. It has nothing to do with the ban. As we've seen with various terrorist attacks, those who want to get weapons in Europe will get weapons. It's a matter of will.

Also, the UK doesn't have the same freedoms that we have, like even freedom of speech.
 

Fishking

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Oh please. Show me the private school you can attend for seven thousand. And good luck with that. This is a way for people who already have their kids in private school to collect about half their expense from the state
Well, I just looked up the average cost in Texas, where I am, and AZ where the article is talking about. The average cost is $10K. This puts them much closer. Infinitely closer than $0 does.
 

Fishking

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Moreover, if there is a market for the service, a business model with form to fill it.

Then either the established private schools with modify costs in favor of more access to greater profits, or the market will create other competitors.
Let's face it. The real issue they have with it is not having 100% control over the indoctrination of children. That's all it is.
 

Fishking

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Part 1

True, but the religious school is financially incentivized.

Except atheists cannot always attend a private religious school. For obvious reasons.
It's no more incentivized than a secular private school. You know those exist, right? Atheists can go there, and if there aren't any, then I guess atheists don't care enough about their children's education to set some up. That's on them. Nothing is stopping them.
I don't. I care that the government is taking money away from public school children to subsidize a religious educational institution who actively discriminates on which students they will take.

Let's do the math I did earlier in the thread for someone else. Arizona currently spends roughly $8,800 per year per pupil. If a student pulls out of public school and attend private school, the state will pay them $7,000 to do so.

So what happened to that other $1,800?
Nope. It's not taking money away from public school children. They still get the same $$ for each student they get now. In fact, a lot of public schools have issues with overcrowded classrooms, so this would help them. Further, it looks like, by your math, they actually come out ahead on $/student because everyone that takes their $7K gives leaves that extra $1,800 for a student that no longer goes there.
Do they get better results or are they working with students who are already better students? In other words, if Johnny, whose dad is in jail and whose mom is crack whore, who has to take care of multiple siblings alone by himself, would the private school somehow get better results out of Johnny, who is not interested in doing any school work?
They will get better results when they aren't worried about drug deals and gang activity, and other behaviors that are tolerated in school.
I'm sorry, who in public education do you think is teaching race essentialism?

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what you've been told my rightwing media. I can't promise you there's NO teachers saying that, but there is no systemic teaching of the concepts you just claimed.
Nope...all the teachers like to out themselves on the internet.
No, I'm saying you don't seem to understand the standards for expulsion of a student. Schools cannot just suspend or expel for the heck of it. And trying to expel a student with an IEP? Nearly impossible, absent a pattern of specific series of serious safety violations.
I understand it just fine. I'm saying the standards are off. Those need to change.
 

Fishking

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Part 2
Yes, but private schools don't have to accept those with learning disabilities if they do not want. Private schools don't have to abide by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. So private schools can discriminate against those with disabilities. So those parents don't have a choice of where they send their kids, do they?
If there is a market for it, it can be found.
And if there's a child with behavior issues, the private school can just kick him out, correct? Unlike the public school? So the parent with the child with behavior issues doesn't really have a choice, do they?

Are you starting to see the point?

No, it is not. Unfortunately, not enough parents believe that. If you want to improve education in America, that would be a great place to start. Getting the parents involved in education is a great place to start.
Yeah...parents won't get invested until you make them get invested. You kick their kid out of school and now they have to figure out what to do with them while going to work...there is your forcing mechanism. What doesn't get them invested is doing nothing and just allowing the kids to misbehave and disrupt the learning environment.
But they can't. By law.

Public schools have to follow the law.

I'm not sure what "all of that stuff" you're referring to, but I do know that public schools can't just say, "Sorry, we're not going to educate you here". But private schools do all the time.
Again, repeat point here, but your absolute annoyingly tedious posting style has you repeating points constantly. Have standards, by law. If the law doesn't allow there to be reasonable standards, then change it. And by "stuff" I mean education. Public schools are ****ing terrible at it.
No, not at all. There are many pages of me explaining why to braindead.
Yeah, they are all ****ing wrong because they don't know what they are talking about. That has been explained to them.
Correct. No one disputes this.

But only to those who can afford it. The single mom who works the retail job from 2-10 has no way to pick up her child from the private school, and since private schools don't bus, the child can't go to the private school. As another poster has pointed out, the average cost for private school in Arizona is over $10,000...the poor family with three kids cannot afford the $9,000 to send their kids to the private school. The poor family may walk to work and not own a car, so even if they weren't working during school time and could afford the $9,000, they would have no way of getting their child there.

No, the vouchers only open the door to the middle class who can afford it. Which means this is a government sponsored two tiered educational system...one for the haves and one for the have nots.

In all seriousness, and without intending to sound like my normal arrogant and/or obnoxious self, I strongly suspect I've forgotten more about teaching and education than you'll ever know.
You know what can't be afforded? Paying $10K when you get $0. You've forgotten one thing for sure, and that is basic math. Also, you've apparently forgotten to write in multiple cogent thoughts and going beyond a single sentence statement is a big struggle for you. Now that I've shit all over your posts, I'll not respond again until you figure out how to write more concisely than your tedious bullshit.
 

Fishking

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gotta tell you... as a teacher of over twenty years I have no idea what this indoctrination is that you speak of...
Apparently you also have no idea what the internet is, because it's all over it.
 

slavablueberryjam

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It's one of these things that would be good if AI were a real thing and could effectively substitute human teachers. But this is Arizona and America. Neither of which is a good thing.
 

justabubba

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Moreover, if there is a market for the service, a business model with form to fill it.

Then either the established private schools with modify costs in favor of more access to greater profits, or the market will create other competitors.
a virtual school, requiring no brick and mortal costs, would certainly be more profitable than a conventional one to instruct students from grades 6-12
also, the parents would not have to transport their kids to attend ...
a portion of those gross profits could be used to rebate some of the tuition to the parents and students in the form of attendance incentives and/or superior testing outcomes
 

reflechissez

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a virtual school, requiring no brick and mortal costs, would certainly be more profitable than a conventional one to instruct students from grades 6-12
also, the parents would not have to transport their kids to attend ...
a portion of those gross profits could be used to rebate some of the tuition to the parents and students in the form of attendance incentives and/or superior testing outcomes
Remote learning is not a panacea.
 
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