[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

[Slyfox696]

I gave you a link in my prior post to 13 Baltimore high schools with zero students proficient in math.

Where is the accountability?

But not in the way that matters.

I have no doubt that lots of forms are being filled out, and reports are being written, and meetings are taking place. But in the end, the teachers and educrats are still getting their salaries, benefits, and gold-plated pensions.

Government-run schools are creating an enormous, permanent, ignorant, underclass. You can spin it any way you want, but the fact is we have cities full of illiterate and innumerate adults who are the product of government-run schools.

I asked if you wanted to be taken seriously or if you wanted to post lies. I can clearly see you did not choose to be taken seriously.

 

[Bodi]

We've never been a less Christian society than we are today. Giving parents the choice of where to send their kids to school is not fascism, not even a little. What's closer to fascism is trying to force a state-run public education on all children that feeds them a very specific message of indoctrination.

gotta tell you... as a teacher of over twenty years I have no idea what this indoctrination is that you speak of...

 

[Slyfox696]

gotta tell you... as a teacher of over twenty years I have no idea what this indoctrination is that you speak of...

Isn't it amazing how neither of the two teachers in this thread can explain this apparent systemic indoctrination that people who are not educators are certain exists?

 

[jgarden477]

U.S. and World Education Spending​

1) educational spending in America falls short of benchmarks set by international organizations such as UNESCO, of which the U.S. is a member
- the nation puts 11.6% of public funding toward education, well below the international standard 15.00%

2) in terms of a percentage of its gross domestic product (GDP), the United States ranks 12th among OECD members in spending on elementary education
- African nations spend the highest amount on education in terms of a % of GDP

3) at 4.96%, the United States spends a smaller % of its GDP on education than other developed nations, which average 5.59% of GDP in educational spending

4) in America, the national gross domestic product (GDP) grows 71.6% faster than public education budgets

5) nationwide, K-12 education revenues increased by 23.8%, or by $3,005 per pupil, on average from 2002 to 2019 - in Georgia, Indiana, North Carolina, Idaho, and Arizona education revenues have remained virtually flat over those 17 years

6) in Arizona, educational revenues increased by only 1.20% since 2002 - but would then decrease by 1.58% after 2009

Table 2: Change in Instructional Salary Spending By State

State	% Change in Overall Per Pupil Spending Since 2002	% Change in Per Pupil Instructional Salary Expenditure Since 2002
Alabama	13.62%	-2.53%
Alaska	32.62%	3.85%
Arizona	1.20%	-3.97%
Arkansas	18.24%	0.37%
California	37.43%	5.35%
Colorado	23.36%	-2.57%
Connecticut	46.01%	20.96%
Delaware	26.36%	5.74%
District of Columbia	31.62%	51.99%
Florida	6.30%	-5.89%
Georgia	2.60%	-10.61%
Hawaii	18.43%	20.78%
Idaho	-0.81%	-12.30%
Illinois	47.84%	10.49%
Indiana	1.54%	-17.96%
Iowa	19.33%	8.90%
Kansas	19.77%	12.15%
Kentucky	27.99%	-3.22%
Louisiana	33.94%	-3.40%
Maine	27.45%	11.87%
Maryland	28.82%	13.50%
Massachusetts	26.82%	22.55%
Michigan	7.19%	-13.71%
Minnesota	23.57%	15.59%
Mississippi	18.77%	7.51%
Missouri	15.12%	-2.65%
Montana	26.34%	13.29%
Nebraska	15.52%	16.32%
Nevada	8.94%	-5.45%
New Hampshire	51.39%	31.29%
New Jersey	26.50%	2.04%
New Mexico	9.99%	0.02%
New York	67.90%	24.75%
North Carolina	-0.79%	-6.55%
North Dakota	51.83%	35.77%
Ohio	12.69%	8.82%
Oklahoma	6.47%	-7.65%
Oregon	24.84%	-0.21%
Pennsylvania	49.23%	6.09%
Rhode Island	29.88%	7.65%
South Carolina	17.50%	-8.67%
South Dakota	17.69%	6.33%
Tennessee	17.79%	-1.70%
Texas	14.05%	-1.99%
Utah	15.13%	-1.85%
Vermont	43.49%	20.08%
Virginia	14.38%	3.45%
Washington	48.75%	28.70%
West Virginia	8.68%	-8.85%
Wisconsin	5.12%	-6.57%
Wyoming	30.55%	19.10%

Spending data show the U.S. has not been defunding public education - Reason Foundation

When looking at the data, the verdict is clear: nearly every American state has increased per-pupil revenues in the last two decades, often by substantial margins.

reason.org

U.S. Public Education Spending Statistics [2023]: per Pupil + Total

Find out how much the U.S. spends on public education and how the costs break down per student, by state and by level of government.

educationdata.org

 

[CLAX1911]

He claimed there were national proficiency standards. There are not. I have no idea what word salad you are tossing here, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.

I didn't see that part of it yeah it's a statewide system of proficiency from what I understand.

No I think school choices a good thing and I supported I hope that more States go for this

 

[jgarden477]

Exodus 5 - Bricks Without Straw

6) That same day Pharaoh gave this order to the slave drivers and overseers in charge of the people:

7) “You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.

8) But require them to make the same number of bricks as before; don’t reduce the quota. They are lazy; that is why they are crying out, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to our God.’

9) Make the work harder for the people so that they keep working and pay no attention to lies.”
**********************************************************************************
Apparently Republican politicians in states like Arizona subscribe to the "bricks without straw" approach to public education -


1) chronically underfund and withhold financial resources for decades ( change in Overall Per Pupil Spending has increased by only 1.20% since 2002)


2) continue to increase the annual workload

3) criticize teachers as lazy, incompetent and part of some nationwide left-wing plot to indoctrinate children when they are no longer capable of "doing more with less" (change in Per Pupil Instructional Salary Expenditure has actually decreased by 3.97% since 2002)

 

[Bodi]

Isn't it amazing how neither of the two teachers in this thread can explain this apparent systemic indoctrination that people who are not educators are certain exists?

They don't even suggest the topics that are part of the indoctrination. Is algebra part of the mind ****? Shakespeare? Capitalization and sentence structure? The litmus test! That is it! No? LOL

 

[reflechissez]

Given that the loss of that $7,000 was associated with the loss of a student, and given that as of five years ago Arizona was spending $8,053 per student, it seems that the loss of 1 student and $7,000 would leave at least (assuming Arizona has not increased per pupil spending while the Federal government was giving them billions of dollars to do precisely that, which, is, shall we say, a bit of a heroic assumption) $1,053 more in the school system to be divided up amongst the remaining children, meaning there will be more resources available per student.

some more recent blurbs suggest that Arizona per pupil spending has risen to ~$10K, meaning that reducing the government system by 1 student and $7,000 will leave even more resources aariable?vailable per student in the government system.

Mind you, the government system will continue to do badly, but, at least the complaint that they are getting less money per pupil to spend on more administrative assistants won't be well-founded.

Do you think all costs are variable?

 

[cpwill]

Do you think all costs are variable?

Certainly not in the short term, however, that wasn't the measure he was complaining about- but, rather, the amount of money per pupil in the system.

 

[snakestretcher]

1972? No wonder conservatives get labelled, 'backward'

 

[trouble13]

Then you must accept I'm arguing for public education for the good of the children. Or you can read one of my 66 posts I've made in this thread. And, no, that's not hyperbole, I've posted 66 times in this thread (400 total posts), so you should have no trouble find any number of my posts.

I believe that you believe that but it does not mean you are right.

I believe broadening students choices benefits them.

 

[braindrain]

Ahh, but you never found your way to the point. So I'm asking you to find your way to the point. That's why I'm wanting you to talk more about Johnny.

So...would you say those kids hurt or help the scores of the school they attend, regardless of whether they attend private or public school?

Johnny can't be disruptive in the private school? He has $7,000 after all and that will get him into a private school somewhere within 9,500 square miles. Why can Johnny not be disruptive in the private school?

Ahh, so you're saying societal factors affect learning? Like I've repeatedly told you?

So do I. Which is why this Arizona bill/law is such a terrible idea.

That's never been my theory. Have you bothered to read what I've been saying?

But let's stay on Johnny. If 50 Johnnys go to a private school of 200 students, what will happen to the private school's scores?

Obviously kids like Johnny hurt schools. And in many ways other then just in test scores. That is why I want parents to have the option to get their kids out of schools that have a bunch of johnnys in them.
And if you think that the parents of kids like Johnny are going to be going through the extra effort to send their kids to private school then you are just living in fantasy land.

You claim that you don’t like the idea of that since we can’t help all the kids then we should help none of them but that is exactly what you are pushing for. Because not all kids will do well, like Johnny, we need to keep all the kids in johnnys class.

 

[braindrain]

At this point, braindrain doesn't even know what his argument is, beyond vomiting partisan buzzwords.

Says the person who, no matter the discussion, only argument is to defend public schools no matter how crappy they are.

 

[braindrain]

show your work

So you think none of these private schools are accepting voucher students. So then what’s the problem. If no school will take them then the kids will stay in public schools.
Hmmm that’s an interesting level of thinking.

But let’s see. In my state over 480 private schools accept vouchers that have voucher students enrolled.

The Facts on School Vouchers – Public Schools First NC

www.publicschoolsfirstnc.org

And that’s from a site dedicated to defending public schools.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Love this comment. Public schools will be just fine if they are offering a good option. If so, they'll get chosen often. If not, they didn't do a good job and parents decided to seek a better option for their children.

Yes. The left needs to decide whether they support the children or the teachers unions. When I and my siblings were elementary school age, my father worked a full time job and two part time jobs in order to put us through private school. Imagine how much easier it would have been if a voucher system existed then..

 

[trouble13]

They don't even suggest the topics that are part of the indoctrination. Is algebra part of the mind ****? Shakespeare? Capitalization and sentence structure? The litmus test! That is it! No? LOL

Actually yes they do say that woke ideology is being introduced to students via math lessons.

 

[BirdinHand]

The reason the costs of public school are so high is teacher benefits and retirement, not salaries - and not spending on today’s teachers and today’s students.

Our district just had an $800K increase in the cost of BENEFITS. We are a K-6 district with just over 130 teachers. That’s not the paras and aides…that’s ONLY teachers that receive those benefits and the teachers continue to receive those benefits in retirement, so we aren’t supporting simply 130 teachers, we are continuing to support those that are retired.

And that $800K increase in cost of benefits? It has meant cuts in current staff - paras and aides - because the budget isn’t balanced any longer and the BOE is going to have to request a tax increase.

Our CURRENT students will see higher student/teacher ratios and receive FEWER in class support because we have to continue to support the retired teachers, no matter what, because of union contracts.

So, you see this cost of $XX,XXX per student - at public schools - don’t think that’s what is being spent on CURRENT students, it’s the cost per current student to keep the school running due to having to carry the cost of benefits, etc for teachers no longer in the buildings. NJ is in big trouble with our pension funding for teachers…because the folks in Trenton have messed up how they invested and contributed and tax payers cannot continue to sustain the burden.

Now that the myth that kids in public schools are getting $XX,XXX in actual expenditure towards THEIR education has been dispelled…let’s tackle some OTHER issues.

Funding public schools off local taxes is nonsense and segregation at its core. Students should receive the same educational value if they live in place A as if they lived in place Z. They do not. On this basis alone, any claim that public education is “inclusive” is false. The child in Philadelphia doesn’t receive nearly the educational spending as the child in the Philly suburbs does. Last I checked, some Philly schools didn’t have enough BOOKS for students, let alone being able to hand every kid a laptop. And who knows how big a burden THEY carry for retired teacher benefits there. That HAS to be paid, regardless of whether they can afford to actually supply current students. The more time passes, the larger that burden is.

That’s why public schools don’t want to lose students to private schools - and why public school teachers and advocates don’t want to lose students to private schools..,they need the money coming IN to support the retirements of the teachers that are either retired or currently in the system. Public pensions are a pyramid scheme and our kids today in public schools are paying the price. It isn’t about education, it’s about retaining the funding to fill the coffers to keep the Ponzi scheme from completely falling apart, especially in economic downturns.

The Next Financial Hammer to Fall: Public Pension Funds

www.ipi.org

 

[BirdinHand]

Teacher unions are an unnecessary burden on tax payers AND current students.

Teachers unions with their public pension funds are robbing current students of resources and are a noose around the neck of taxpayers and school boards across this country.

Today’s students are receiving less money in public schools towards their current education because the burden of carrying benefits, etc for former teachers are astronomical…and must be paid…before current students, building projects, etc can be funded.

So, school choice vouchers are a MUST going forward. Allowing parents to opt OUT of the broken public education system is the only way to give parents ANY control over the education of their child. $7K towards education is MUCH more than what is ACTUALLY being spent per student in the vast majority of public schools. Private institutions will put that money towards the CURRENT students, not towards supporting and propping up failed public pension funds.

Not to mention, funding Capitol projects that will never be utilized by current students. Public school spending is like giving a shopaholic the password to the bank account and expecting them to act responsibly with the money. It doesn’t work. And the kids today are the ones paying for decades of bad investments and spending.

Break the Ponzi scheme by defunding it.

 

[BirdinHand]

Public pensions should be abolished. Your retirement isn’t my responsibility.

(And when you read from posters here that are public school teachers…keep in mind, THEIR retirement is going to be funded by public pensions that taxpayers, including the kids growing up now that may never set foot in a public classroom will pay…so they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo)


If we abolished public pensions, then we can get back to the topic of actually addressing the shortcomings in public education. These shortcomings are largely around adequate funding.

But we can’t even begin to address how to fix failing public schools when the albatross of having to continue to fund pensions and benefits is in the mix. The population of 2022 and students of 2022 shouldn’t be having their education stifled because Jane Smith is paying $10K in property taxes - and a significant chunk of the money that makes it to the public school is going into the coffers to fund benefits…not the current schools.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I can't speak for New Jersey, but I work for a school system in Virginia.

Approximately 15% of my compensation package goes into the State Retirement program, 10% from my School District and 5% of my actual salary.

Once I retire the cost to my current school district to continue funding my pension, that my compensation has been building for the last 20+ years, is exactly $0 dollars.

If you retire before 65, you can stay on our Medical and Dental plans, but as a retiree you are required to pay the FULL premium (both the EE portion and the portion paid by the school system as the employer for active EEs). Once you reach 65 you are on your own with MediCare and what ever supplemental plan you choose to pay for on your own. [In the interest of truth, I think there is a $100 per month supplement toward medical insurance at age 65, which is helpful, but not by much.)

And I just checked my tracking sheet, by VRS retirement amount will be about 35% of my current annual salary. That's assuming I tell my wife she is on her own and don't opt to pay for a Survivor Annuity program out of that. Protection that is not baked into the system, something you have to pay for out of your retirement check every month.

35% is no where near "gold plated".

WW

 

[gbg3]

Yes. The left needs to decide whether they support the children or the teachers unions. When I and my siblings were elementary school age, my father worked a full time job and two part time jobs in order to put us through private school. Imagine how much easier it would have been if a voucher system existed then..

I went to public schools, as did my children, and I think overall, it was a fairly good to very good situation. Back then, competition was allowed, even encouraged, and the best students were actually given room (and difficult enough classes, teachers, and special assignments) to be challenged and thrive. There was competition to get the best grade, the best test score, the best SAT score, etc. There were also kids who struggled and some struggled significantly. That group always has and still does present a challenge for any school. But the answer to that problem should never be to lessen options for the brightest students and remove things like colleges requiring SATs/ACTs or remove valedictorian status, etc.
But that was a past environment and the bringing of politics and agendas into school has been a nightmare. And, because I have grandchildren, I know that is indeed happening and in a notable way.
I am so excited to hear this excellent news about AZ. It truly "made my day" yesterday! What a great step in what I hope will be a countrywide trend toward more and more school choice!

 

[Grand Mal]

There are already a decent number of private schools in Arizona with pretty low admissions fees. You think they won’t be accepting voucher kids.

Will they get into the highest cost schools, probably not. Still much better then the horrible public schools.

Wouldnt it be even better to make the publuc schools not horrible? Public schools work just fine in plenty of places.
Usually this prejudice against public schools is either from believing the private sector is preferrable in every case or believing that anything involving a union is leftist socialist propaganda. Is that why you think public schools dont work?

Heres the top ten education systems according to PISA, the Programme for International Student Assesment. Every one of them does it with public schools. And if theres any whiff of propaganda in any of them it would be in the best of them.

PISA 2018 – Average Score of Mathematics, Science and Reading:​

1.	China (Beijing, Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang)	578.7
2.	Singapore	556.3
3.	Macao	542.3
4.	Hong Kong, China	530.7
5.	Estonia	525.3
6.	Japan	520.0
7.	South Korea	519.7
8.	Canada	516.7
	Taiwan	516.7
10.	Finland	516.3

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Yep that was at least in my case before the teacher's unions gained a stranglehold on the public schools Parents were more of an influence through the PTA. The problem with the public schools in my area at the time were mostly safety issues, too much drugs and too many fights including knife fights. That was the Los Angeles area. I certainly hope the Arizona Voucher system spreads to all states, for the sake of the chidlren, the public and private schools. If forced to compete, the public schools will improve.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I went to public schools, as did my children, and I think overall, it was a fairly good to very good situation. Back then, competition was allowed, even encouraged, and the best students were actually given room (and difficult enough classes, teachers, and special assignments) to be challenged and thrive. There was competition to get the best grade, the best test score, the best SAT score, etc. There were also kids who struggled and some struggled significantly. That group always has and still does present a challenge for any school. But the answer to that problem should never be to lessen options for the brightest students and remove things like colleges requiring SATs/ACTs or remove valedictorian status, etc.
But that was a past environment and the bringing of politics and agendas into school has been a nightmare. And, because I have grandchildren, I know that is indeed happening and in a notable way.
I am so excited to hear this excellent news about AZ. It truly "made my day" yesterday! What a great step in what I hope will be a countrywide trend toward more and more school choice!

I recall all of this and more.

The more being many public schools also taught "practical" classes. Things like auto shop, metal shop, woodworking, agriculture, typing, home economics, etc.

There was no stigma against kids who chose such "working class" courses, because there were markets for those skills and well-paying jobs.

Today, not only are most of those kinds of jobs shipped overseas to China, India, Bangla Des, Indonesia, etc., but kids are taught these jobs are both beneath them and not worthy of consideration.

But like high school diplomas became just a paper mill sans educational skills, so too have college degrees. We now have kids spending tens of thousands of borrowed (student loan) dollars on college courses that have no real commercial value.

They come out with degrees in "underwater basket-weaving" and we have to "create" jobs for them in HR Departments, and other "special sections." Otherwise they end up Managers of Wal-Mart, or some such...after starting as cashiers/stock clerks. Or maybe they become school teachers and pass on their bad ideas.

 

[Grand Mal]

I went to public schools, as did my children, and I think overall, it was a fairly good to very good situation. Back then, competition was allowed, even encouraged, and the best students were actually given room (and difficult enough classes, teachers, and special assignments) to be challenged and thrive. There was competition to get the best grade, the best test score, the best SAT score, etc. There were also kids who struggled and some struggled significantly. That group always has and still does present a challenge for any school. But the answer to that problem should never be to lessen options for the brightest students and remove things like colleges requiring SATs/ACTs or remove valedictorian status, etc.
But that was a past environment and the bringing of politics and agendas into school has been a nightmare. And, because I have grandchildren, I know that is indeed happening and in a notable way.

The top 4 school systems in the world are China, Singapore, Macao and Hong Kong. Somehow their students absorb (or ignore, more likely) a degree of propaganda and still score higher in math, reading and science than anyone else.
I gotta wonder if there isnt several other things at work here. And I wonder if this isnt you bringing your agenda into it.

I am so excited to hear this excellent news about AZ. It truly "made my day" yesterday! What a great step in what I hope will be a countrywide trend toward more and more school choice!