[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

[jgarden477]

You understand that this is not a discussion of college right? Maybe next time you try and attack the other side of the isle you actually know what the conversation is about.


But honestly it is good you brought this up because it is a good example of what for profit private institutions can do in the way of education.
Thank you for helping out.

The point that "braindrain" failed to comprehend was that given only 12% of the nation's school-aged children attend private schools, the vast majority of American students enrolled in higher education, including the top ranked universities, are graduates from the public school systems!

Approximately 1 million foreign students attend America's public and private colleges and universities - conservatives may consider these institutions as bastions of left-wing indoctrination, but that's not the opinion held by the rest of the world!

 

[braindrain]

12 out of 53 high school is not "quite a few" in my book, especially not in a state with a land area of 114,000 square miles. That means that there is only one school with tuition under $7,000 every 9,500 square miles. That's not "quite a few".

The poster I responded to was trying to pretend their was no private schools available at that cost. I would say 1/5 of the schools in that state being at or below that costs counts as quite a few. You don’t agree I really don’t care.

 

[Hatuey]

The government gives away 7K vouchers. The average private school costs 12K. That doesn't mean the better private schools, that means the average.

I'm guessing the idea here is that there is a gap in tuition cost that disappears in this new super amazing libertarian conservative scotus world system.

In the real world, parents now have to come up with that difference. 5K on average is not the same amount of money for everyone. Work for your education class.

Incredible. Betsy Davos is doing cartwheels in bed right now.

 

[braindrain]

No, you said I was defending public education because of teacher unions...so the fact Missouri has no teacher unions exposes your post for the nonsense that it is. Your exact words are below:

"Says the person whose only answer is just send kids to failing public schools because it’s good for the teachers unions."

And I have also brought up your devotion to defending public education no matter what in other posts. So what.
You do realize that just because you quoted one post that doesn’t include the entirety of my posts right?

 

[braindrain]

Where? We're talking about Arizona, right?
If you think wealthy people will accept their high-tuition private schools becoming the replacement for public schools, you're dreaming. The private school system will continue to service their clienteles desire for exclusivity and paid-for excellence. What you'll end up with is the education equivalent of private prisons.

There are already a decent number of private schools in Arizona with pretty low admissions fees. You think they won’t be accepting voucher kids.

Will they get into the highest cost schools, probably not. Still much better then the horrible public schools.

 

[Slyfox696]

The poster I responded to was trying to pretend their was no private schools available at that cost.

And to refute his position, you pointed out that there is one every 9,500 square miles. Bang up job. Those non-rich folk really have it made now!

 

[aociswundumho]

So you don't think closing schools is a form of accountability?

I don't, because the physical building doesn't matter.

Then you're clearly not interested in honest discussion, because closing a school is the ultimate accountability.

Only people can be held accountable. If everyone who worked in the school were simply moved to another school, then they were not held accountable.

Here's another stellar endorsement for public edukashun:

13 Baltimore high schools, no students proficient in math, report says

One-third of High Schools in Baltimore had zero students proficient in math last year and only 14 schools had students proficient in the subject, new state testing data revealed.

www.foxnews.com

But don't worry, all of the teachers and educrats were paid in full.

You claimed there's no accountability in public education. I laughed at you for making the most ludicrously false claim possible. You said prove it, so I did.

You didn't prove shit. All of those schools except one are still open today.

Why aren't we firing the parents? Is it not the responsibility of the parent to ensure their child is doing their work? How about we fire all the parents first and then see what schools look like.

Yes, blame the parents for government failure.

 

[Slyfox696]

And I have also brought up your devotion to defending public education no matter what in other posts. So what.

So there's nothing wrong with claiming I defend public education. Clearly that is correct. But it is a lie to say, as you did, that I do it for teacher unions. That's "so what".

But stop stalling and let's talk more about Johnny. Tell me what happens to the scores of the private school with 200 students when 50 Johnnys walk through the door for a year.

 

[Slyfox696]

I don't, because the physical building doesn't matter.

Then you're clearly not someone to waste my time with. If you don't think school closings and teacher firings are public school accountability, then you're not discussing in good faith and I have too many other posters replying to me to waste time with such blatant post dishonesty.

EDIT: Except for this.

Yes, blame the parents for government failure.

You're blaming teachers for parental failure.

 

[justabubba]

The poorest among us won’t. Many of those who could come somewhat close to paying for our kids to go to better schools can. Because something isn’ta perfect solution doesn’t mean it isn’ta better solution.

They can much easier get their kids to a private school then they can homeschool which was Winston’s claim. Yes people with more money can better utilize this program but there will be way more middle class kids who can get a better education then before.

I never claimed this is a perfect solution. Just better then the current crappy public school only option for those people.

let's examine what you have acknowledged here
the voucher will help more middle class kids
the voucher will supplement what their middle class family could afford, enabling some to be able to attend a private school that the family could not have afforded but for the availability of the voucher

the affluent family that was already paying for the entire cost of the private education will now be receiving $7000 each year to reduce the family's private school expenditure. that family will enjoy $7000 additional discretionary income

and where will that $7000 come from?
the public school budget
and how will that impact the public school students?
there will be fewer resources available per student

those affluent kids whose family covered the child's private school cost before will receive the money taken from the school system that had never before been receiving money to pay for the private school student's education
thus, each private school voucher will be a net loss of $7000 to the public school district

yet the public school will have a higher proportion of special needs students than it did previously, because the private schools are not going to be accepting them, leaving the number of special needs students unchanged while the school will be incurring reduced funding due to the reduced total number of public school students

the people who get hurt by this program are the special needs kids whose school becomes under-resourced to cover their very costly educational needs

there is another group you left out of your assement of the impact of introducing vouchers: poor kids

the public schools will have fewer middle class kids because their families are now able to send them to private school thanks to the voucher. like special needs kids, poor kids will constitute a higher proportion of the student body than before the vouchers
and the public school budget will be reduced by $7000 for every kid in the district attending private school

you already recognize that public schools need to improve, but how realistic is that going to happen when their student bodies are more concentrated with special needs students and students from poor families?

66000 school students paid to attend arizona private schools in 2022
without any voucher subsidy
arizona paid exactly $0 for their private school education in 2022
those 66000 will be eligible for the $7000 per student subsidy
where will arizona find the $462,000,000 to fund these subsidies if not from the public education budget?

 

[braindrain]

It absolutely matters.

But I'm not done talking about Johnny. Let's talk more about Johnny. If you don't think the private school could educate Johnny, then how can you claim it is a better school? And if 50 Johnny's enter a private school of 200 students, how do you think the scores of that private school will look?

Go back and read my edit. I talked about Johnny plenty.

Some kids are simply not going to be able to receive a good education no matter what school they go to. The difference between you and me is you want to force all kids to suffer because Johnny wants to be be disruptive in class and degrade the education of everyone else in his class. Meanwhile I want as many kids as possible to get a good education.
Again I disagree with your theory that because we can’t help all kids we should help none of them.

 

[aociswundumho]

Then you're clearly not someone to waste my time with. If you don't think school closings and teacher firings are public school accountability, then you're not discussing in good faith and I have too many other posters replying to me to waste time with such blatant post dishonesty.

Provide evidence that teachers were fired.

 

[cpwill]

The government gives away 7K vouchers. The average private school costs 12K. That doesn't mean the better private schools, that means the average.

I'm guessing the idea here is that there is a gap in tuition cost that disappears in this new super amazing libertarian conservative scotus world system.

In the real world, parents now have to come up with that difference. 5K on average is not the same amount of money for everyone. Work for your education class.

Incredible. Betsy Davos is doing cartwheels in bed right now.

Is that 12K the average cost in Arizona, or nation-wide?

 

[Slyfox696]

let's examine what you have acknowledged here
the voucher will help more middle class kids
the voucher will supplement what their middle class family could afford, enabling some to be able to attend a private school that the family could not have afforded but for the availability of the voucher

the affluent family that was already paying for the entire cost of the private education will now be receiving $7000 each year to reduce the family's private school expenditure. that family will enjoy $7000 additional discretionary income

and where will that $7000 come from?
the public school budget
and how will that impact the public school students?
there will be fewer resources available per student

those affluent kids whose family covered the child's private school cost before will receive the money taken from the school system that had never before been receiving money to pay for the private school student's education
thus, each private school voucher will be a net loss of $7000 to the public school district

yet the public school will have a higher proportion of special needs students than it did previously, because the private schools are not going to be accepting them, leaving the number of special needs students unchanged while the school will be incurring reduced funding due to the reduced total number of public school students

the people who get hurt by this program are the special needs kids whose school becomes under-resourced to cover their very costly educational needs

there is another group you left out of your assement of the impact of introducing vouchers: poor kids

the public schools will have fewer middle class kids because their families are now able to send them to private school thanks to the voucher. like special needs kids, poor kids will constitute a higher proportion of the student body than before the vouchers
and the public school budget will be reduced by $7000 for every kid in the district attending private school

you already recognize that public schools need to improve, but how realistic is that going to happen when their student bodies are more concentrated with special needs students and students from poor families?

At this point, braindrain doesn't even know what his argument is, beyond vomiting partisan buzzwords.

 

[Slyfox696]

Go back and read my edit. I talked about Johnny plenty.

Ahh, but you never found your way to the point. So I'm asking you to find your way to the point. That's why I'm wanting you to talk more about Johnny.

Some kids are simply not going to be able to receive a good education no matter what school they go to.

So...would you say those kids hurt or help the scores of the school they attend, regardless of whether they attend private or public school?

The difference between you and me is you want to force all kids to suffer because Johnny wants to be be disruptive in class

Johnny can't be disruptive in the private school? He has $7,000 after all and that will get him into a private school somewhere within 9,500 square miles. Why can Johnny not be disruptive in the private school?

and degrade the education of everyone else in his class.

Ahh, so you're saying societal factors affect learning? Like I've repeatedly told you?

Meanwhile I want as many kids as possible to get a good education.

So do I. Which is why this Arizona bill/law is such a terrible idea.

Again I disagree with your theory that because we can’t help all kids we should help none of them.

That's never been my theory. Have you bothered to read what I've been saying?

But let's stay on Johnny. If 50 Johnnys go to a private school of 200 students, what will happen to the private school's scores?

 

[reflechissez]

The fact that you don’t think plenty of for profit schools will accept voucher students is just silly. Many already do.

show your work

 

[cpwill]

let's examine what you have acknowledged here
the voucher will help more middle class kids
the voucher will supplement what their middle class family could afford, enabling some to be able to attend a private school that the family could not have afforded but for the availability of the voucher

the affluent family that was already paying for the entire cost of the private education will now be receiving $7000 each year to reduce the family's private school expenditure. that family will enjoy $7000 additional discretionary income

and where will that $7000 come from?
the public school budget
and how will that impact the public school students?
there will be fewer resources available per student

Given that the loss of that $7,000 was associated with the loss of a student, and given that as of five years ago Arizona was spending $8,053 per student, it seems that the loss of 1 student and $7,000 would leave at least (assuming Arizona has not increased per pupil spending while the Federal government was giving them billions of dollars to do precisely that, which, is, shall we say, a bit of a heroic assumption) $1,053 more in the school system to be divided up amongst the remaining children, meaning there will be more resources available per student.

some more recent blurbs suggest that Arizona per pupil spending has risen to ~$10K, meaning that reducing the government system by 1 student and $7,000 will leave even more resources available per student in the government system.

Mind you, the government system will continue to do badly, but, at least the complaint that they are getting less money per pupil to spend on more administrative assistants won't be well-founded.

 

[Slyfox696]

Provide evidence that teachers were fired.

Teachers are fired all the time. Hell, we fired a couple of teachers just this past April.

The idea there is no public accountability in education, either on a teacher or school or state level, is hilariously wrong. You can either accept it or not. But not accepting it means you are not intending to be taken seriously.

Schools are held accountable in all sorts of ways. We're accountable for test scores, for finances, for non-discrimination, etc. Teachers are reviewed and assessed numerous times. Hell, I spent MONTHS with the federal Department of Education reworking parts of our school website because they didn't like that we did not have an accessible navigation menu. Here is a link to the Missouri School Improvement Plan (MSIP) Comprehensive Guide. You'll note the first sentence literally says, "The sixth version of the Missouri School Improvement Program (MSIP 6), the state’s accountability system for reviewing and accrediting Local Education Agencies (LEAs), outlines the expectations for student achievement, with the goal of each student graduating success-ready for college, career, and life.". There is just ZERO factual basis to say there is no accountability in public education.

So either you want to be taken seriously or you want to post lies. Which is it?

 

[Slyfox696]

Given that the loss of that $7,000 was associated with the loss of a student, and given that as of five years ago Arizona was spending $8,053 per student, it seems that the loss of 1 student and $7,000 would leave at least (assuming Arizona has not increased per pupil spending while the Federal government was giving them billions of dollars to do precisely that, which, is, shall we say, a bit of a heroic assumption) $1,053 more in the school system to be divided up amongst the remaining children, meaning there will be more resources available per student.

Not likely. I don't know about Arizona specifically, but most states have a funding formula which is primarily based on student attendance. In other words, the school only gets that $8,800 (what they currently spend per student) if the student goes there. If the student does not attend that school, the school does not get any of that money.

It's obviously more complicated than that, but that is the basic description of how public schools are funded, at least in most states. So that extra $1800 has no obligation to go to any school and likely will not.

some more recent blurbs suggest that Arizona per pupil spending has risen to ~$10K, meaning that reducing the government system by 1 student and $7,000 will leave even more resources available per student in the government system.

Mind you, the government system will continue to do badly, but, at least the complaint that they are getting less money per pupil to spend on more administrative assistants won't be well-founded.

Again, that's not really how school funding works, at least not in most states. Again, I can't say for sure how Arizona does it, but I doubt it's much different.

EDIT: If you want to see the Arizona funding formula, I found the document. You'll notice it's based on student attendance, as I said it probably would be.

https://ade.az.gov/schoolfinance/FAQs/Funding/Equalization%20Formula%20Funding.pdf

 

[Variant]

There arent enough Christians in this country to take over the country. And there are less of them every year. You're scared for no reason.

The ones that are seeking power and getting in power are increasingly interested in special provisions for themselves, government support for their religion, institution of their dogma as the basis for laws to control others, and minority rule.

And you are telling us we should simply ignore the last 2000 or so years of history about how the group acts when in power and assume they still embrace all the enlightenment ideals they seem to be abandoning.

 

[Davin]

Which is a good thing.

You might want to be introspective about why this happened. You can’t tell the majority demographic to hate themselves and they deserve to be crushed underfoot forever without pushback

There is no impending “theocratic fascism” which is a made up term that means nothing anyway. What you use that term to refer to is neither theocratic nor fascist

WTF are you talking about? You are already on record as supporting religious laws going into effect that go against freedom of choice. Your lies are DISMISSED.

 

[Atomic Kid]

School has been out for Republicans for a long time now. And boy does it ever show!

 

[trouble13]

I don't agree with this at all. I think there's plenty wrong with offering parents vouchers. I've outlined numerous issues with it in this thread.

That is NOT how educational funding traditionally works. I can't speak for Arizona specifically, but for every state I'm aware of, funding is based on student population and attendance. So as students leave public school, public school receives less funding.

I cannot speak for Democrats, but the reason I'm opposed to them is because I'm opposed to a government sponsored class based educational system, where those who already have the best chance at educational success are given more resources at the expense of those who need them the most.

Missouri does not have teacher unions. Now I'm definitely not a Democrat, but I can guarantee you nothing you said here applies to Missouri or me. So what's your explanation for why I'm against it, if not for the good of all children?

Since you have not outlined your objections in this post and I have not seen your multiple outlines where you have, I have no explanation to offer you.

 

[aociswundumho]

Teachers are fired all the time. Hell, we fired a couple of teachers just this past April.

The idea there is no public accountability in education, either on a teacher or school or state level, is hilariously wrong.

I gave you a link in my prior post to 13 Baltimore high schools with zero students proficient in math.

Where is the accountability?

You can either accept it or not. But not accepting it means you are not intending to be taken seriously.

Schools are held accountable in all sorts of ways.

But not in the way that matters.

We're accountable for test scores, for finances, for non-discrimination, etc. Teachers are reviewed and assessed numerous times. Hell, I spent MONTHS with the federal Department of Education reworking parts of our school website because they didn't like that we did not have an accessible navigation menu. Here is a link to the Missouri School Improvement Plan (MSIP) Comprehensive Guide. You'll note the first sentence literally says, "The sixth version of the Missouri School Improvement Program (MSIP 6), the state’s accountability system for reviewing and accrediting Local Education Agencies (LEAs), outlines the expectations for student achievement, with the goal of each student graduating success-ready for college, career, and life.". There is just ZERO factual basis to say there is no accountability in public education.

I have no doubt that lots of forms are being filled out, and reports are being written, and meetings are taking place. But in the end, the teachers and educrats are still getting their salaries, benefits, and gold-plated pensions.

So either you want to be taken seriously or you want to post lies. Which is it?

Government-run schools are creating an enormous, permanent, ignorant, underclass. You can spin it any way you want, but the fact is we have cities full of illiterate and innumerate adults who are the product of government-run schools.

 

[Slyfox696]

Since you have not outlined your objections in this post and I have not seen your multiple outlines where you have, I have no explanation to offer you.

Then you must accept I'm arguing for public education for the good of the children. Or you can read one of my 66 posts I've made in this thread. And, no, that's not hyperbole, I've posted 66 times in this thread (400 total posts), so you should have no trouble find any number of my posts.