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[W:20] My Brother, Israel

tosca1

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Israel features prominently in the Old Testament. In fact, the whole Old Testament centers on the turbulent relationship between God and His chosen people, Israel. The history was given for a reason - that we may have some understanding of God, and that we may learn from it.

For all the wrongs that Israel had done to God - which earned them His wrath every now and then - the Bible tells us that God will never forsake Israel.


Isaiah 54
10
Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.




The Laws of Nature will be abolished before God rejects Israel! That's practically what He said in His new covenant!



Jeremiah 31
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

35 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”

37 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.




Actually, Gentiles (we), have been grafted because of Israel!


Romans 11
Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.




And we are given a warning!


Romans 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.





Christians must stand with Israel.

Our Christian heritage lies with Israel - through our Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Our heritage is Jewish.
 
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Elvira

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Not true...fleshly Israel turned their backs on God and His son to this day...Jesus is the one and only means of salvation...

5 The next day their rulers, elders, and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem,

6 along with Anʹnas the chief priest, Caʹia·phas, John, Alexander, and all who were relatives of the chief priest.

7 They stood Peter and John in their midst and began to question them: “By what power or in whose name did you do this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them: “Rulers of the people and elders,

9 if we are being examined today about a good deed to a crippled man, and you want to know who made this man well,

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you.

11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’

12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.

13 Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus."

Just as the topmost stone of a building is conspicuous, so Jesus Christ is the crowning stone of the Christian congregation of anointed ones, which is likened to a spiritual temple...Peter also applied Psalm 118:22 to Christ, showing that he was “the stone” rejected by men but chosen by God to become “the head of the corner.”​ Acts 4:8-12; 1 Peter 2:4-7
 

OlNate

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Israel features prominently in the Old Testament. In fact, the whole Old Testament centers on the turbulent relationship between God and His chosen people, Israel. The history was given for a reason - that we may have some understanding of God, and that we may learn from it.

For all the wrongs that Israel had done to God - which earned them His wrath every now and then - the Bible tells us that God will never forsake Israel.


Isaiah 54
10
Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.




The Laws of Nature will be abolished before God rejects Israel! That's practically what He said in His new covenant!



Jeremiah 31
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

35 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”

37 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.




Actually, Gentiles (we), have been grafted because of Israel!


Romans 11
Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.




And we are given a warning!


Romans 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.





Christians must stand with Israel.

Our Christian heritage lies with Israel - through our Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Our heritage is Jewish.


So, Tos… If you're talking to me today...

What do you think is more important to God? Historical alliances, or making decisions on who to support based on what they do, as it relates to God's message?
 

tosca1

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So, Tos… If you're talking to me today...

What do you think is more important to God? Historical alliances, or making decisions on who to support based on what they do, as it relates to God's message?

I don't think you wanna say all Jews or Christians or atheists are bad same as I don't say all Muslims are.

It's not for me to judge what individual people do, Nate. God will be the judge of that.

Depends on what you want to do - that's why we have free will. You can choose

For me, it's clear what the Bible says. That, alone, should suffice.

But to address your query about making decisions based on what people do - from what I can see with my own eyes - certain religion calling for the annihilation of Israel - there's no question in my mind where I should stand. With whom I must stand.

WITH ISRAEL!
 
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OlNate

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I don't think you wanna say all Jews or Christians or atheists are bad same as I don't say all Muslims are.

It's not for me to judge what individual people do, Nate. God will be the judge of that.

Depends on what you want to do - that's why we have free will. You can choose

For me, it's clear what the Bible says. That, alone, should suffice.

But to address your query about making decisions based on what people do - from what I can see with my own eyes - certain religion calling for the annihilation of Israel - there's no question in my mind where I should stand. With whom I must stand.

WITH ISRAEL!


Don't forget. Despite being God's people, when they fell out of line his "corrective actions" were (sometimes literally) Earth shattering. It's ok to criticize Israel, as their history of failing in the eyes of God is as well documented as his love for them. In layman's terms, God made sure to document that fact that their **** stinks just like anyone else's.

Furthermore, Christ openly challenges the Jews regularly (as seen in his discussions with the Pharisees).

If you're looking for Biblical justification for supporting Israel in the middle east, I think you can stop at "love your neighbor as yourself"...that is reason enough to promote peace and work towards the betterment of war torn countries. However, blindly supporting the atrocities and civil rights violations perpetrated by the Israeli government is another thing altogether, as is ignoring the plight of the Palestinians who suffer in their own country as a result. The only thing for sure in the middle east is that NO ONE is innocent. Not the Palestinians, not the Israelis, and not the rest of us who pick sides as we see fit.

Praying for peace in the middle east is a frequent thing for me. But I do not pray for the obliteration of an enemy, or even the victory of an ally. Rather that both sides pull head from ass, and learn how to live in harmony, and that even a small fraction of God's love would influence them to stop killing each other's children. Despite that, I have very little patience or tolerance for either side, if they are saying the other is to blame. Thankfully there are those on both sides that are waking up and saying enough. If you want to witness God at work, it will be there.
 

Omega Man

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Israel features prominently in the Old Testament. In fact, the whole Old Testament centers on the turbulent relationship between God and His chosen people, Israel. The history was given for a reason - that we may have some understanding of God, and that we may learn from it.

For all the wrongs that Israel had done to God - which earned them His wrath every now and then - the Bible tells us that God will never forsake Israel.


Isaiah 54
10
Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.




The Laws of Nature will be abolished before God rejects Israel! That's practically what He said in His new covenant!



Jeremiah 31
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

35 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”

37 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.




Actually, Gentiles (we), have been grafted because of Israel!


Romans 11
Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.




And we are given a warning!


Romans 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.





Christians must stand with Israel.

Our Christian heritage lies with Israel - through our Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Our heritage is Jewish.

Ah yes, Deutero-Isaiah, an unknown author (definitely a disciple of Proto-Isaiah, who lived and wrote a couple centuries earlier during the Assyrian period) who lived in Babylon during the Exilic period, and wrote specifically about those times, in that place. With the advance of Cyrus, and the downfall of Babylon certain, Deutero-Isaiah felt a certain luxury in making written pronouncements as to judgment and redemption (much of which never came to fruition anyhow). What he wasn’t doing however was staring into some sort of crystal ball thousands of years into the future. He wrote specifically about people and places, at a certain time. Much like political pundits voicing their opinions do today.


OM
 

Suburban Jedi

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Ah yes, Deutero-Isaiah, an unknown author (definitely a disciple of Proto-Isaiah, who lived and wrote a couple centuries earlier during the Assyrian period) who lived in Babylon during the Exilic period, and wrote specifically about those times, in that place. With the advance of Cyrus, and the downfall of Babylon certain, Deutero-Isaiah felt a certain luxury in making written pronouncements as to judgment and redemption (much of which never came to fruition anyhow). What he wasn’t doing however was staring into some sort of crystal ball thousands of years into the future. He wrote specifically about people and places, at a certain time. Much like political pundits voicing their opinions do today.


OM

BRAVO,BRAVO, BRAVO.Somebody who actually KNOWS the Bible and modern scholarship.
 

PoS

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Christianity is really just a Jewish heresy.
 

tosca1

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Don't forget. Despite being God's people, when they fell out of line his "corrective actions" were (sometimes literally) Earth shattering. It's ok to criticize Israel, as their history of failing in the eyes of God is as well documented as his love for them. In layman's terms, God made sure to document that fact that their **** stinks just like anyone else's.

Furthermore, Christ openly challenges the Jews regularly (as seen in his discussions with the Pharisees).

If you're looking for Biblical justification for supporting Israel in the middle east, I think you can stop at "love your neighbor as yourself"...that is reason enough to promote peace and work towards the betterment of war torn countries. However, blindly supporting the atrocities and civil rights violations perpetrated by the Israeli government is another thing altogether, as is ignoring the plight of the Palestinians who suffer in their own country as a result. The only thing for sure in the middle east is that NO ONE is innocent. Not the Palestinians, not the Israelis, and not the rest of us who pick sides as we see fit.

Praying for peace in the middle east is a frequent thing for me. But I do not pray for the obliteration of an enemy, or even the victory of an ally. Rather that both sides pull head from ass, and learn how to live in harmony, and that even a small fraction of God's love would influence them to stop killing each other's children. Despite that, I have very little patience or tolerance for either side, if they are saying the other is to blame. Thankfully there are those on both sides that are waking up and saying enough.

Still, those who practice Judaism hasn't accepted Christ. Even today!

It's okay to point out a wrong - or to criticize - even with fellow-Christians. But I'm talking about those who wishes to see the downfall of Israel! Those who want to deny the statehood of Israel - for them to have their own nation and sovereignty, and security. Those who condemn Israel, those who wishes to annihilate Israel, and those who support the annihilation of Israel.




If you want to witness God at work, it will be there.

We did. The 6-day war!

Israel is where God wants her to be.
 
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OlNate

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Still, those who practice Judaism hasn't accepted Christ. Even today!

It's okay to point out a wrong - or to criticize - even with fellow-Christians. But I'm talking about those who wishes to see the downfall of Israel! Those who want to deny the statehood of Israel - for them to have their own nation and sovereignty, and security. Those who condemn Israel, those who wishes to annihilate Israel, and those who support the annihilation of Israel.

We did. The 6-day war!

Israel is where God wants her to be.

Meh...if God wants them to survive as a nation, there's nothing or no one in the world that could stop them. God has let his people "walk in the desert" for their sins before. He has also raised them up. I'm not so arrogant to think that I can thwart the will of God through political games.

I don't wish to see the "downfall of Israel". However, I would like to see them act a little more righteously, vs. just talk about how righteous they are, while acting in an opposite fashion. If some of the dialogue in here (not with you) is indicative of the attitude of the Zionist element in Israel, I would say they have a good ways to go before I would feel comfortable giving them my "support", especially if I'm doing it in Christ's name.

(Being very careful not to delve too deeply into ME stuff in here, as the mods can be a bit sticky about that...trying to keep this in the context of whether or not Christians are obliged to support Israel)
 

tosca1

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Meh...if God wants them to survive as a nation, there's nothing or no one in the world that could stop them. God has let his people "walk in the desert" for their sins before. He has also raised them up. I'm not so arrogant to think that I can thwart the will of God through political games.

I don't wish to see the "downfall of Israel". However, I would like to see them act a little more righteously, vs. just talk about how righteous they are, while acting in an opposite fashion. If some of the dialogue in here (not with you) is indicative of the attitude of the Zionist element in Israel, I would say they have a good ways to go before I would feel comfortable giving them my "support", especially if I'm doing it in Christ's name.

(Being very careful not to delve too deeply into ME stuff in here, as the mods can be a bit sticky about that...trying to keep this in the context of whether or not Christians are obliged to support Israel)

I don't really understand the whole politics in the middle east.
Most, or even all of what little I know comes from the media - and I'm sure there are slanted versions.
Some are pro-Israel and some are anti-Israel. :shrug:

So, who am I to judge whether what they're doing is righteous, or not?


But from little feedback I get from some people (some from the middle east) - the gripe about Jews boil down to their prosperity!

But I am awed.

For all the upheaval and persecutions Jews had experienced, how can they have bounced back in such short years to become the power that they are today?


Lol - all other countries took CENTURIES and more, to become what they are now - some countries never even quite made it out of the dark ages even as we speak - but Israel just cruised right to it in such a short time!
And, they excel in a lot of fields!

How can I not see the hand of God on Israel - and relate what I see with the Bible?
 
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Tigerace117

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Still, those who practice Judaism hasn't accepted Christ. Even today!

It's okay to point out a wrong - or to criticize - even with fellow-Christians. But I'm talking about those who wishes to see the downfall of Israel! Those who want to deny the statehood of Israel - for them to have their own nation and sovereignty, and security. Those who condemn Israel, those who wishes to annihilate Israel, and those who support the annihilation of Israel.






We did. The 6-day war!

Israel is where God wants her to be.

The Six Day War had absolutely nothing do to with divine intervention.

As the Yom Kippur War showed.
 

tosca1

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The Six Day War had absolutely nothing do to with divine intervention.

As the Yom Kippur War showed.

Yes, Yom Kippur did show. It was a surprise attack on Israel.....and yet.....



On October 6, 1973, hoping to win back territory lost to Israel during the third Arab-Israeli war, in 1967, Egyptian and Syrian forces launched a coordinated attack against Israel on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. Taking the Israeli Defense Forces by surprise, Egyptian troops swept deep into the Sinai Peninsula, while Syria struggled to throw occupying Israeli troops out of the Golan Heights.
Israel counterattacked and recaptured the Golan Heights. A cease-fire went into effect on October 25, 1973.

1973 Yom Kippur War: Background

Israel’s stunning victory in the Six-Day War of 1967 left the Jewish nation in control of territory four times its previous size. Egypt lost the 23,500-square-mile Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip, Jordan lost the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Syria lost the strategic Golan Heights.


When Anwar el-Sadat (1918-81) became president of Egypt in 1970, he found himself leader of an economically troubled nation that could ill afford to continue its endless crusade against Israel. He wanted to make peace and thereby achieve stability and recovery of the Sinai, but after Israel’s 1967 victory it was unlikely that Israel’s peace terms would be favorable to Egypt. So Sadat conceived of a daring plan to attack Israel again, which, even if unsuccessful, might convince the Israelis that peace with Egypt was necessary.

Yom Kippur War: October 1973

When the fourth Arab-Israeli war began on October 6, 1973, many of Israel’s soldiers were away from their posts observing Yom Kippur (or Day of Atonement), and the Arab armies made impressive advances with their up-to-date Soviet weaponry.

Iraqi forces soon joined the war, and Syria received support from Jordan. After several days, Israel was fully mobilized, and the Israel Defense Forces began beating back the Arab gains at a heavy cost to soldiers and equipment.
A U.S. airlift of arms aided Israel’s cause, but President Richard Nixon (1913-94) delayed the emergency military aid for a week as a tacit signal of U.S. sympathy for Egypt. On October 25, an Egyptian-Israeli cease-fire was secured by the United Nations.


For Syria, the Yom Kippur War was a disaster.
The unexpected Egyptian-Israeli cease-fire exposed Syria to military defeat, and Israel seized even more territory in the Golan Heights.

In 1979, Syria voted with other Arab states to expel Egypt from the Arab League.

https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/yom-kippur-war



How many times in the Old testament that Israel had been at war with coalition of nations?
 
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OlNate

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I don't know the whole politics in the middle east. Most, or even all of what little I know comes from the media - and I'm sure there are slanted versions. So, who's for me to say what they're doing is righteous or not?

But from little feedback I get from some people - the gripe about Jews boil down to their prosperity. For all the upheaval and persecutions Jews had experienced, how can they have bounced back in such short years to become the power that they are today?

How can I not see the hand of God - and relate that with the Bible?

Lol - all other countries took CENTURIES and more, to become what they are now - some countries never even quite made it out of the dark ages even as we speak - but Israel just cruised right to it in such a short time!


You should have a deeper look, Tos...but I appreciate your honesty when you say you are not up on the politics. Not to worry, only I know everything. ;) :lol:

The Jews are certainly to be admired for their resilience, and they have certainly faced greater odds than many peoples and are still a driving force in the world. That's pretty impressive.

But their human rights record, since the UN gave them their country, has been less impressive, to say the least.

I think when we, as Christians, give our support or our endorsement, we need to ensure that we are offering our support with our values in mind. I'm not sure we're allowed to withhold support if it is required, that's probably another heavy theological discussion on it's own, but to give it without reproach sets a confusing example to those wondering what Christianity is about. If we give our open ended, unconditional support to Israel, without addressing the problematic behavior that is in direct contrast to God's word, we create a juxtaposition between what we say we believe, and what we demonstrate with our actions, as well as miss an opportunity to lend our support to another demographic, who, arguably, has as much in common with us from a faith perspective as Israel.
 

tosca1

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Not true...fleshly Israel turned their backs on God and His son to this day...Jesus is the one and only means of salvation...
:roll:

No one's claiming Jesus isn't the only path to salvation!
For all the turbulent relationship they've had with God - they are not excluded from the invitation
to be saved!


Jews, like all mankind, are given a chance by God to receive salvation!
Just like all others, it's up to them whether they'll accept Jesus Christ or not.

Nevertheless, as the Bible stated - God will never forsake Israel!
God had made a covenant - you know what a covenant is

Read again!


Jeremiah 31
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”



35 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”

37 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.



Do you think God is a liar, too?




Why do you think the door is still open to them, and the invitation still stands for those who wish to be saved?

There are Jews who have already turned to Jesus Christ. Do you think these Jews will perish?
 
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tosca1

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5 The next day their rulers, elders, and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem,

6 along with Anʹnas the chief priest, Caʹia·phas, John, Alexander, and all who were relatives of the chief priest.

7 They stood Peter and John in their midst and began to question them: “By what power or in whose name did you do this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them: “Rulers of the people and elders,

9 if we are being examined today about a good deed to a crippled man, and you want to know who made this man well,

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you.

11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’

12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.

13 Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus."

Just as the topmost stone of a building is conspicuous, so Jesus Christ is the crowning stone of the Christian congregation of anointed ones, which is likened to a spiritual temple...Peter also applied Psalm 118:22 to Christ, showing that he was “the stone” rejected by men but chosen by God to become “the head of the corner.”​ Acts 4:8-12; 1 Peter 2:4-7


That doesn't mean they cannot be forgiven!

Furthermore...

You make it so that all Jews are guilty because Jews crucified Jesus Christ!
Aren't the Apostles Jews (to cite a few)?


Romans 11
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!

Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.




lol....why does God want to make them feel envious if He'd already written them all off?

Just think - in a relationship, why do we want someone we love to feel jealous, when we want to gain his attention?
 
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Omega Man

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:roll:

No one's claiming Jesus isn't the only path to salvation!
For all the turbulent relationship they've had with God - they are not excluded from the invitation
to be saved!


Jews, like all mankind, are given a chance by God to receive salvation!
Just like all others, it's up to them whether they'll accept Jesus Christ or not.

Nevertheless, as the Bible stated - God will never forsake Israel!
God had made a covenant - you know what a covenant is

Read again!


Jeremiah 31
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”



35 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”

37 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.



Do you think God is a liar, too?




Why do you think the door is still open to them, and the invitation still stands for those who wish to be saved?

There are Jews who have already turned to Jesus Christ. Do you think these Jews will perish?

Ah yes, the Covenant Code, written by men, and set forth at a time when women were considered property.


OM
 

Tigerace117

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Yes, Yom Kippur did show. It was a surprise attack on Israel.....and yet.....




https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/yom-kippur-war



How many times in the Old testament that Israel had been at war with coalition of nations?

Yes, it was a "surprise" attack only in that Israel arrogantly assumed the Arabs would be pushovers like they were in the Six Day War. As it turned out......they weren't.

How many times did Israel get wiped out by one empire or another in the Old Testament?
 

jet57

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Israel features prominently in the Old Testament. In fact, the whole Old Testament centers on the turbulent relationship between God and His chosen people, Israel. The history was given for a reason - that we may have some understanding of God, and that we may learn from it.

For all the wrongs that Israel had done to God - which earned them His wrath every now and then - the Bible tells us that God will never forsake Israel.


Isaiah 54
10
Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.




The Laws of Nature will be abolished before God rejects Israel! That's practically what He said in His new covenant!



Jeremiah 31
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

35 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”

37 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.




Actually, Gentiles (we), have been grafted because of Israel!


Romans 11
Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.




And we are given a warning!


Romans 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.





Christians must stand with Israel.

Our Christian heritage lies with Israel - through our Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Our heritage is Jewish.

Are you Jewish?
 

CaptainCourtesy

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Moderator's Warning:
Folks, stick to the RELIGIOUS aspect of this discussion and leave the political parts to other areas of DP.
 

DarkWizard12

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Not true...fleshly Israel turned their backs on God and His son to this day...Jesus is the one and only means of salvation...

5 The next day their rulers, elders, and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem,

6 along with Anʹnas the chief priest, Caʹia·phas, John, Alexander, and all who were relatives of the chief priest.

7 They stood Peter and John in their midst and began to question them: “By what power or in whose name did you do this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them: “Rulers of the people and elders,

9 if we are being examined today about a good deed to a crippled man, and you want to know who made this man well,

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you.

11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’

12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.

13 Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus."

Just as the topmost stone of a building is conspicuous, so Jesus Christ is the crowning stone of the Christian congregation of anointed ones, which is likened to a spiritual temple...Peter also applied Psalm 118:22 to Christ, showing that he was “the stone” rejected by men but chosen by God to become “the head of the corner.”​ Acts 4:8-12; 1 Peter 2:4-7

This is where we run into an immutable contradiction. To believe that the new testament writings, such as hebrews, is to believe that all the old testament prophet's words concerning God's unforsaking love of Israel is wrong. However, the only reason why the new testament has a claim is because it affirms the truth of the Old Testament prophets. It's an immutable problem. Both testaments can't be right, and yet, to be a christian means you believe that both of them are right.
 

Elvira

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This is where we run into an immutable contradiction. To believe that the new testament writings, such as hebrews, is to believe that all the old testament prophet's words concerning God's unforsaking love of Israel is wrong. However, the only reason why the new testament has a claim is because it affirms the truth of the Old Testament prophets. It's an immutable problem. Both testaments can't be right, and yet, to be a christian means you believe that both of them are right.

They absolutely can both be right and they are...one was written directly to and about Jehovah's covenants with the fleshly nation of Israel, the Jewish people, and one was written directly to and about Jehovah's covenant with spiritual Israel, the Christian congregation...
 

DarkWizard12

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They absolutely can both be right and they are...one was written directly to and about Jehovah's covenants with the fleshly nation of Israel, the Jewish people, and one was written directly to and about Jehovah's covenant with spiritual Israel, the Christian congregation...

That seems to be quite an important detail, how could none of the prophets have specified it? "Oh, we weren't talking about physical israel, but spiritual". That type of interpretation seems quite forced, with no real proof in the texts. What then, was the point of giving them the commandments at mount sinai? or the thousand years of history that followed between the Israelite nation, and roman dominance in Jesus's time?

you say that "fleshly" israel turned their backs on God. Apparantly, God agrees, and still says that he will be a husband to them, and redeem them, according to Jeremiah. Who's right? Jeremiah, or Paul?

Hebrews 8:9
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:32
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
If this weren't the bible, I would say, someone plagiarized and purposely mistranslated Jeremiah for their own ends.
 

Elvira

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That seems to be quite an important detail, how could none of the prophets have specified it? "Oh, we weren't talking about physical israel, but spiritual". That type of interpretation seems quite forced, with no real proof in the texts. What then, was the point of giving them the commandments at mount sinai? or the thousand years of history that followed between the Israelite nation, and roman dominance in Jesus's time?

you say that "fleshly" israel turned their backs on God. Apparantly, God agrees, and still says that he will be a husband to them, and redeem them, according to Jeremiah. Who's right? Jeremiah, or Paul?

Hebrews 8:9

Jeremiah 31:32

If this weren't the bible, I would say, someone plagiarized and purposely mistranslated Jeremiah for their own ends.

1 Peter 2:4-10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Hebrews 8:6-13
 

tosca1

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Yes, it was a "surprise" attack only in that Israel arrogantly assumed the Arabs would be pushovers like they were in the Six Day War. As it turned out......they weren't.

You're the one making the assumption on what you say, "they assumed."



How many times did Israel get wiped out by one empire or another in the Old Testament?

Corrections: Not "wiped out." But defeated, and/or enslaved!

You think Israel will ever be wiped out? :lol:
With so many annhiliation attempt - they're still very much around, aren't they?

When did Israel become a state? 1948!

And yet, in twenty years - they beat up a COALITION of arab nations!
How can you manage that in only twenty years, without any divine intervention?
It was like the Old Testament, all over again!


Compared to other countries - some of those arab nations still in the dark ages even now - Israel had managed to be a powerhouse in no time at all!

I can't remember exactly how many times they've been defeated - but many times!
Every time they're being punished by God!


And, how many times did they win?
I can't remember exactly how many times they've won - but many times!
Every time they're being helped by God!
 
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