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[W:1721] [W:2837] Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

Hold Man Hostage?


  • Total voters
    31

Well as I've written a few times, you are not just "changing laws" you are ignoring rights. In this case:

--People have a 9th Amendment right to have kids...so how can the govt single out women here and refuse them welfare, benefits, etc when it's provided to others? link
--Women have a 1st Amendment right to religious freedom. You cannot penalize women for exercising their rights...if a woman doesnt believe in abortion, she cannot be refused welfare, benefits, etc.​
--The child has a statutory right to support from both parents (linked and quoted in post 237)​

So again, it's not just changing laws, it's violating rights instead of holding the people who voluntarily chose to risk that pregnancy accountable.
 
What couples that have kids are getting Child Support from a third party?

The taxpayers. Even with a loan...we're paying...many taxpayers will be dead before she pays back that loan. We never see that $ again.
 
Well as I've written a few times, you are not just "changing laws" you are ignoring rights. In this case:
Here we go again... nobody is violating the woman's rights. She retains 100% power and control over her own body, pregnancy and the choice to give birth or not.
--People have a 9th Amendment right to have kids...so how can the govt single out women here and refuse them welfare, benefits, etc when it's provided to others?​
Who said they can not get benefits? Jeez... here we go with the misrepresentations and accusations. I knew it was a mistake.
--Women have a 1st Amendment right to religious freedom. You cannot penalize women for exercising their rights...if a woman doesnt believe in abortion, she cannot be refused welfare, benefits, etc.​
She can get benefits. Regarding religion if she is devout enough to not have an abortion the she is devout enough to not have sex with a man who will not stay with her, be married, engaged, etc. Can't claim religious piety in one hand and the right to sleep around in the other.
--The child has a statutory right to support from both parents (linked and quoted in post 237)​
There is no child.
So again, it's not just changing laws, it's violating rights instead of holding the people who voluntarily chose to risk that pregnancy accountable.
Wrong. As usual... on almost every single point.
 
Here we go again... nobody is violating the woman's rights. She retains 100% power and control over her own body, pregnancy and the choice to give birth or not.

Wow. You dont get this at all.

The child is entitled to that support. To deny the child that $$ because she exercised Const. protected rights is not legal. It's punitive.


Who said they can not get benefits? Jeez... here we go with the misrepresentations and accusations. I knew it was a mistake.

Fine, I can see it either way in what you wrote. But you still cannot deny the kid because she exercised her rights.



YOu dont get to make the judgements about her devotion and it wont matter in court.

There is no child.

Then why does she need the loan?


Wrong. As usual... on almost every single point.

Nope, and you cant even directly address the fact that the right to support from BOTH parents is explicit and belongs to the child. Why wont you address that?
 
Wow. You dont get this at all.

The child is entitled to that support. To deny the child that $$ because she exercised Const. protected rights is not legal. It's punitive.
How is granting a loan denying support?
Fine, I can see it either way in what you wrote. But you still cannot deny the kid because she exercised her rights.
This argument is about POST CONCEPTION OPTING OUT... there is no kid.
YOu dont get to make the judgements about her devotion and it wont matter in court.
Any person that tries to pull religious shit on one hand and sleeps around on the other is a ****ing scumbag/
Then why does she need the loan?
Because you are unable to differentiate between him opting out and her having the child anyway. It is so ****ing basic too... or it is part of your lies.
Nope, and you cant even directly address the fact that the right to support from BOTH parents is explicit and belongs to the child. Why wont you address that?
About done here... no child has the right to support from both parents... every time I address this nobody tries to make it again because they understand just how stupid they sounded making it in the first place.
 
How is granting a loan denying support?

I explained it. WHat part didnt you understand? You are denying support that the child is entitled to by right...because the women exercised her rights. Not to mention that the right to support by both parents is the "child's right".

How do you not understand this? You are penalizing the woman and the child when rights protect both of them.

This argument is about POST CONCEPTION OPTING OUT... there is no kid.


That has happened and been thrown out by the Judge. Pre-birth contracts are irrelevant compared to the interest of the child.


Any person that tries to pull religious shit on one hand and sleeps around on the other is a ****ing scumbag/

Who cares what you think? Again, not interested in your judgement, her 1A right is protected, and the judges dont care about your feelings either.

Because you are unable to differentiate between him opting out and her having the child anyway. It is so ****ing basic too... or it is part of your lies.

I can differentiate between that...why do you ignore the fact that no agreement can stop her from having the kid anyway? And when that happens, when there is a child...whatever the parents 'want' is irrelevant...the child's right to support from both parents supersedes the agreement

What's my lie? Be specific?

About done here... no child has the right to support from both parents... every time I address this nobody tries to make it again because they understand just how stupid they sounded making it in the first place.

Here's proof you're wrong. Now...where's your proof disputing it?

Child Support is a statutory right that actually "belongs" to the child. Neither the egg donor nor the sperm donor can "contract out" of their liability under the laws that grant the statutory right to child support.​
So anything 'pre-conception' or 'pre-birth' is useless...if there's a child, their statutory right supersedes the contract or law.​
"No matter what situation gives rise to the need for child support, it might help to think of the legal right to child support as being possessed by a child (which it technically is), for his or her proper care and upbringing, regardless of who actually receives child support payments.
The fact that the custodial parent has a high income does not itself justify deviation from the guidelines, because under the law children have the right to benefit from both parents' incomes."
--also--​
A child’s right to receive parental support is inherent and cannot be waived by either party. Regardless of the parents’ relationship with one another (whether married, divorced, separated, or never married), as long as paternity has been established, both parents are on the hook for child support. Regardless of any arrangement—such as “trading” spousal support for child support—both parents still have a legal obligation to support the child.​
 
@Bodi, to clarify, you are penalizing women and children not by denying them public assistance benefits/support, but by demanding she pay back support $ the kid is entitled to, and penalizing her for exercising her 9th and 1st Amendment rights. It wont fly in court, the legal "standing" of the men who knowingly risked producing the kid is at the bottom of the totem pole, with the kids and taxpayers at the top.
 
Anyway… thoughts?

The main concern is that it should not impact the child. So in such a scenario support payments should continue to be paid by the state, as if the father was unknown.

Sadly this position is not really healthy for individual responsibility and taking ownership of your mistakes, but that concept is so diluted anyway as to be near meaningless. Making some people pay a heavy price for innocent mistakes, while society has to foot the bill for other peoples much less innocent mistakes makes little sense, nor is it particularly fair. So on basic principle yes. If a woman can choose to opt out for any reason they want, a man should be able to as well (as long as the kid is still taken care of).
 

Except in a sperm donor contract
 
I've heard this opt out argument many times, but it really isn't an equal situation, so there is no way to have a man be able to abort a child. It cannot be "equal." Women can abort because only women can have babies (sorry transgenders, that's the reality). And, so there is an inherent, natural extant difference which means different things are treated equally. An "opt out" where a child is ultimately born does not create equality, because in the abortion situation there is never a child, and in the opt out situation there is a child. Abandoning a child is not the equivalent of an abortion.
 
You are conceding already?



Ok
What is to concede. Bodi is doing his usual thing of hoping that being obnoxious will drive away those who have no trouble pointing out how ridiculous his thinking is.

That is his way of saying he cannot think up a good way of refuting the fact that he just wants the right for men not to be held accountable for their own actions.

To continue the debate with him would be a waste because all I will get from now on is insults as that is all he has.
 
But you are not asking men be responsible for their actions by demanding they pay support. You are demanding that men be held responsible for the choices that a female made.
Are you arguing from a point that women do not have right to make choices about what happens to their bodies? If so then your position here is understandable. If not then their choice is theirs while the choice a male makes is the males choices. That is what he is being held accountable for.
 
He is responsible for half of the pregnancy... the woman is the one responsible for giving birth. 100% on her.
And that is her right to make that choice. But then you are the one arguing that while it is there choice Your particular sub text is that the women's choice should be to first consider what a man wants.
 
You'll get em next time
 
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