[W:#127]Biden admin divided over path ahead for Ukraine as top US general Milley pushes for diplomacy

W_Heisenberg said:

Did you know that according to polling at the time that the vast majority of Ukrainians supported the Maidan Uprising and its goals?

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Then the right way to go about change was to hold the new elections that had been agreed upon and to vote out the current govt. Instead they allowed a foreign power and a minority right wing extremist element to piggy back the protest. They have paid an extremely high price for it ever since imo

W_Heisenberg said:

Or, is it your opinion that the Ukrainians are too stupid to think for themselves?

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Why are you still trolling me in every reply you make to my posts? I guess you might employ the tactic so as to steer me into not replying to yours and then you might claim some hollow victory. It's a debate forum so I suggest you might actually try to engage in debate instead of trolling people because they don't agree with your perspectives.

W_Heisenberg said:

So, again, what the Ukrainians want for themselves is to become more Western, more modern. They want a government that is free of corruption. They want a modern, liberal democracy based on the rule of law. This is a normal, human yearning. The Ukrainians are human beings, they have the same individual rights that we do, and they have the right to live in a free country. They see other former Soviet countries becoming modern, liberal democracies, joining NATO, integrating with Europe, and more broadly, Western civilization, economically, legally, and they say to themselves, "We want that for ourselves. We want a country we can be proud of."

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There is a comment attributed to Gandhi although it might not be authentic but lets play it anyhow. It goes as follows " when asked about western civilisation Gandhi replied that he thought it would be a good idea. That's a pretty common view around the world, imo, but because of the backlash that would come to those stupid enough to keep on pedalling it, we are saved from looking in the mirror or considering the gravity of how others might view us

They have never had a govt free of corruption and the West doesn't really care about corruption either. It is often times just another fig leaf that is useful for naked hegemonic imperialist activities

W_Heisenberg said:

What you and Putin describe as meddling are U.S. and Western efforts to show the Ukrainians how to conduct and monitor elections, how to create a fair and independent judiciary (which laws to pass, how the laws should be written, the types of people to appoint, etc.), best accounting practices to avoid corruption in business, the best methods for peacefully resolving disputes, and so and so forth. These are tools Western civilization has acquired over time that has allowed it to become so successful compared to other civilizations. And Americans and Westerners have a humanitarian obligation to preach and spread the gospel of democracy and everything necessary for its vital function.

These are things Putin considers "meddling."

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It seems like you think the Ukrainians NEED help on how to conduct free and fair elections from the US. That the irony of this notion hasn't hit you like a cricket bat to the nose only confirms ,as if further confirmation were needed, that you are completely lost to the western propaganda system

W_Heisenberg said:

Why does Putin consider this "meddling"? Well, if Ukraine manages to become a fully modern, liberal democracy based on the rule of law then Putin cannot control Ukraine. That's why Putin considers U.S. and Western efforts to promote democracy in Ukraine to be "meddling." According to Putin, Ukrainian democracy is a threat to Russian national interests.

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Because it is meddling. It's meddling when Russia does it and it's meddling when the US and/or the EU do it. IMO you don't have the independence of thought needed to understand that.

Rogue Valley said:

@oneworld2....

After Soviet soldiers won the Battle of Stalingrad, did voices in the West call on Stalin to negotiate with Hitler? Did they say, let Hitler keep some of Soviet territory in return for peace? Just 20% of Soviet lands.

Just wondering.

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Comparing the German invasion and occupation of WW2 Russia to events in the Ukraine today is definitely, imo, an apples to oranges thing. I think each individual case should be judged on its own merits and own unique circumstances.

Fledermaus said:

You look confused.

Did I burst your pro Putin bubble?

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Don't flatter yourself even if the compulsion is overwhelming for you, which certainly seems to be the case.

oneworld2 said:

Don't flatter yourself even if the compulsion is overwhelming for you, which certainly seems to be the case.

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Rogue Valley said:

Viktor Yanukovych - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yanukovych was removed from office by his own Party, and a new presidential election was ordered to be held in 1 month.

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There's a crucial omission in the above that makes all the difference.

He wasn't " removed from office" UNTIL he had fled the country off the back of Right wing declarations to storm govt buildings using armed combatants. I saw for myself video footage of a Bandera type stood next to Klitschko who was nodding his head as he was making the announcement, that was the day before Yanukovych attempted to leave the country.

oneworld2 said:

There's a crucial omission in the above that makes all the difference.

He wasn't " removed from office" UNTIL he had fled the country off the back of Right wing declarations to storm govt buildings using armed combatants. I saw for myself video footage of a Bandera type stood next to Klitschko who was nodding his head as he was making the announcement, that was the day before Yanukovych attempted to leave the country.

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He was removed from office BECAUSE he fled.

He effectively abdicated his role.

Schism said:

Diplomacy is always a good thing.

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Except when you substitute it for an attainable victory.

anatta said:

maybe. But since Ukraine has advanced NATO weapons -maybe not.
either way peace talks should be a requirement of US aid, even if they are only pro forma

No talks -no peace. it's that simple

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No Russky withdrawal, no peace, even simpler.

coyote505 said:

Except when you substitute it for an attainable victory.

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There's no need for offensive military operations as long as diplomacy is moving forward. Defensive operations are a last resort and rarely needed. All one needs to look at are our interventions in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa to see the multiple failures and destruction and deaths left behind. The only people benefitting are the people who make money from war.

anatta said:

make talks and deals contingent on behavior

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When all Russian troops are out if Ukraine there can be talks.

Schism said:

There's no need for offensive military operations as long as diplomacy is moving forward. Defensive operations are a last resort and rarely needed. All one needs to look at are our interventions in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa to see the multiple failures and destruction and deaths left behind. The only people benefitting are the people who make money from war.

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Leave the war in Ukraine hands, but take off the cuffs. Let them punish the Russians with a two eyes for an eye policy reaching across the Russian border, to destroy both military and infrastructure. Let them make it clear that Ukraine firing stops ONLY after Russian firing stops. Provide them with the weapons to do this most effectively. Any Russian within 200 miles of the border is fair game.

coyote505 said:

Leave the war in Ukraine hands, but take off the cuffs. Let them punish the Russians with a two eyes for an eye policy reaching across the Russian border, to destroy both military and infrastructure. Let them make it clear that Ukraine firing stops ONLY after Russian firing stops. Provide them with the weapons to do this most effectively. Any Russian within 200 miles of the border is fair game.

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So, war crimes then?

Schism said:

So, war crimes then?

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So, military pressure forcing Russia to retreat well back from its own borders. After continual Russian shelling, this is fully justified retribution, unless you are one of those ho doesn't believe Israel has the right to shoot back into Gaza. For folks like that, logical argument is futile.

Schism said:

So, war crimes then?

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You're never here complaining about Russian war crimes.

Why is that?

Rogue Valley said:

You're never here complaining about Russian war crimes.

Why is that?

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It must be because I LoVE2 MoTh3r Ru551A!! LOL! What a dumb reply. Some people see nazis behind every bush, others see Russian agents. It's dumb. It's childish. It's lazy and unimaginative.

If you're a cheerleader for US interventionism and hegemony, I'll gladly discuss my antiwar views.

But I won't engage with ridiculous and nonsensical antics.

Schism said:

It must be because I LoVE2 MoTh3r Ru551A!! LOL! What a dumb reply. Some people see nazis behind every bush, others see Russian agents. It's dumb. It's childish. It's lazy and unimaginative.

If you're a cheerleader for US interventionism and hegemony,I'll gladly discuss my an tiwar views.

But I won't engage with ridiculous and nonsensical antics.

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Then keep your turkey avatar. It fits.

This is not going to end as most even imagine. Winter is coming, I once read. The lights are going out across Ukraine, and it is getting cold. Though media often tout the losses Russia is suffering, Ukrainian casualties have been running much the same. 65 to 100 KIA a day, depending on the day, so my friends in both countries tell me. Doing the math, one can see how this plays out in the end. Though the losses are not at the scale of World War I or II, they are much greater than anything nations in Europe are prepared to suffer should the conflict continue, and Russia prevails. I believe our company is the single largest employer of Ukrainians and Russians in asia. They normally socialize together, outside of and away from other foreign circles, being multi-lingual (normally three of the following - Russian, Ukrainian, English, Turkish or Chinese). What is significant about this is that among Ukrainians there is a pride in the fight, though at the same time a despair that realizes the inevitable outcome without direct outside involvement. Among Russians there is only a dogged determination to clamp down even harder. It is understandable why Milley and others would now wish for negotiations. All their earlier hopes that the war in Ukraine would topple Putin are not panning out, and they forsee the spread of a wider conflict, one that the US and its allies are in no way ready to fight on the scale of casualties as is currently taking place in Ukraine.

SayMyName said:

This is not going to end as most even imagine. Winter is coming, I once read. The lights are going out across Ukraine, and it is getting cold. Though media often tout the losses Russia is suffering, Ukrainian casualties have been running much the same. 65 to 100 KIA a day, depending on the day, so my friends in both countries tell me. Doing the math, one can see how this plays out in the end. Though the losses are not at the scale of World War I or II, they are much greater than anything nations in Europe are prepared to suffer should the conflict continue, and Russia prevails. I believe our company is the single largest employer of Ukrainians and Russians in asia. They normally socialize together, outside of and away from other foreign circles, being multi-lingual (normally three of the following - Russian, Ukrainian, English, Turkish or Chinese). What is significant about this is that among Ukrainians there is a pride in the fight, though at the same time a despair that realizes the inevitable outcome without direct outside involvement. Among Russians there is only a dogged determination to clamp down even harder. It is understandable why Milley and others would now wish for negotiations. All their earlier hopes that the war in Ukraine would topple Putin are not panning out, and they forsee the spread of a wider conflict, one that the US and its allies are in no way ready to fight on the scale of casualties as is currently taking place in Ukraine.

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I agree with the above analysis and would only add whether there will be a mass movement of Ukrainians to the Polish border as the winter suffering increases. There might not be enough room to accommodate them in Poland so are we heading towards mass camps on the Ukrainian side of the Ukrainian/Polish border? We are already seeing the start of what could be developed into a NATO no go area for Russian aircraft over Ukraine.

I think Milley was sincere in his call for negotiations but was forced to back pedal in the face of the reaction from the hawks in the US and the damage to the image being painted of the conflict in the western MSM.

For me, the sooner there is a diplomatic resolution to end this conflict the better it will be for all parties.

SayMyName said:

This is not going to end as most even imagine. Winter is coming, I once read. The lights are going out across Ukraine, and it is getting cold. Though media often tout the losses Russia is suffering, Ukrainian casualties have been running much the same. 65 to 100 KIA a day, depending on the day, so my friends in both countries tell me. Doing the math, one can see how this plays out in the end. Though the losses are not at the scale of World War I or II, they are much greater than anything nations in Europe are prepared to suffer should the conflict continue, and Russia prevails. I believe our company is the single largest employer of Ukrainians and Russians in asia. They normally socialize together, outside of and away from other foreign circles, being multi-lingual (normally three of the following - Russian, Ukrainian, English, Turkish or Chinese). What is significant about this is that among Ukrainians there is a pride in the fight, though at the same time a despair that realizes the inevitable outcome without direct outside involvement. Among Russians there is only a dogged determination to clamp down even harder. It is understandable why Milley and others would now wish for negotiations. All their earlier hopes that the war in Ukraine would topple Putin are not panning out, and they forsee the spread of a wider conflict, one that the US and its allies are in no way ready to fight on the scale of casualties as is currently taking place in Ukraine.

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Zelenskyy has laid down his 10 requrements for negotiations.

You're on a VPN.

Rogue Valley said:

Zelenskyy has laid down his 10 requrements for negotiations.

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Zelenskyy outlined five conditions for negotiations on Monday, including ones he’s said before, like the restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity, the punishment of war crimes and reparations. What he didn’t say, unlike in past announcements, was that Putin must be out of power before such conversations can take place.

Why the change? One of the people said it came after days of talks between Kyiv and Washington — including an in-person visit with Zelenskyy by national security adviser JAKE SULLIVAN. U.S. officials didn’t directly tell Zelenskyy and his aides in Ukraine to alter their position, a senior administration official said, but did relay that Kyiv must show its willingness to end the war reasonably and peacefully.

The hope is it would reinforce to the world that it’s Ukraine, not Russia, that wants to resolve the conflict.

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So much for Ukraine being allowed to make its own decisions ? Funny that when people here push for negotiations they are rounded on by the " fight Russia to the last Ukrainian brigade " who then stick to the hard line that Ukraine should be free from outside meddling.

So many somersaults and contradictions from your side, it would actually be embarrassing for them if they only had the wherewithal to realize it.

Rogue Valley said:

You're on a VPN.

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And what?

oneworld2 said:

U.S. nudging worked its magic on Zelenskyy

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's new stance that peace talks with Russia can begin with Vladimir Putin in power was directly due to soft nudging by the Biden administration.

www.politico.com

So much for Ukraine being allowed to make its own decisions ? Funny that when people here push for negotiations they are rounded on by the " fight Russia to the last Ukrainian brigade " who then stick to the hard line that Ukraine should be free from outside meddling.

So many somersaults and contradictions from your side, it would actually be embarrassing for them if they only had the wherewithal to realize it.

And what?

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but did relay that Kyiv must show its willingness to end the war reasonably and peacefully.

Isn't that what the surrender monkeys and Putin Propaganda puppets keep demanding?

Schism said:

It must be because I LoVE2 MoTh3r Ru551A!!

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That you are a Trump/Putin sychophant is no secret here at DP.

Rogue Valley said:

That you are a Trump/Putin sychophant is no secret here at DP.

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5 Things Narcissists Say in an Argument

Fledermaus said:

but did relay that Kyiv must show its willingness to end the war reasonably and peacefully.

Isn't that what the surrender monkeys and Putin Propaganda puppets keep demanding?

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Here's what you dodged from that post.

"

oneworld2 said:

So much for Ukraine being allowed to make its own decisions ? Funny that when people here push for negotiations they are rounded on by the " fight Russia to the last Ukrainian brigade " who then stick to the hard line that Ukraine should be free from outside meddling.

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Was it too hard for you to respond to without acknowledging the obvious hypocrisy on display?

oneworld2 said:

Here's what you dodged from that post.

"



Was it too hard for you to respond to without acknowledging the obvious hypocrisy on display?

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Ukraine can of course make its own decisions. But Ukraine has partnered with the west and relies on the assistance of the West. So one of those decisions will be to consider input of western leaders in just about every move they make