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[W:1][W:11][W:368] Russia invades Ukraine: Live Thread

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You seem like a thoughtful debater, but this is not the thread for this offshoot of the discussion. This thread is for updates and comments on the war. Don't leave; just scroll past the posters who can't hear you.
While I appreciate why you said what you did, silence when people come on this thread to hijack it to express their pro Putin subjective opinions sometimes posters who feel misstated required rebuttal particularly when they are being responded to with comments engaging in pro Putin scripts to apologize and defend what he has ordered or what is happening on the ground to serve as disinformation ans deflection from the topic.
 
You want to talk about this hospital that got popped? Great, show me there were or weren't hostiles in that building.

You see, those sorts of details that consistently elude you matter. If that hospital was covered with machine guns, mortars, and military personnel, that changes things, right?
Right on queue. You should ask for a raise!

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov claimed on Thursday that a hospital which was attacked in the southern Ukrainian port city of Mariupol had been serving as a military base for nationalists.

"This maternity hospital has long been occupied by the Azov Battalion and other radicals. They drove out the women in labour, nurses and general staff. It was the base of the ultra-radical Azov Battalion," Lavrov said, following talks in Turkey with his Ukrainian counterpart.



Clearly these women were Azov fighters:

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1646936061888.png
 
While I appreciate why you said what you did, silence when people come on this thread to hijack it to express their pro Putin subjective opinions sometimes posters who feel misstated required rebuttal particularly when they are being responded to with comments engaging in pro Putin scripts to apologize and defend what he has ordered or what is happening on the ground to serve as disinformation ans deflection from the topic.
I wasn't talking about the posts arguing if Putin is to blame. I was responding to a post (the second one) that was strictly a complaint about debate tactics.
 
Independent media outlets all over the world vs. a state-controlled Russian media operating under the threat of imprisonment. Why is it so difficult for you to figure out which one is lying?
I mean, you don’t really mean independent media. Independent media is shows like Tucker Carlson, or various podcasts, or the American conservative. You are talking about the corporate press, which is most assuredly not independent. Most of the big funded media outlets in the west whether they be government like BBC or corporate like CNN, or merely propaganda outlets for global homo
 
Do you really believe NATO based media companies are independent?
Are they being thrown in jail for reporting what they see? No? Then they're independent.

Sky News Australia is not based in a NATO country and they're reporting essentially the same thing everyone else is (except Russia, which is a giant clue to anyone paying attention).

I have no doubt that Russia is lying their ass off about a lot of stuff. I also have no doubt that Ukraine is lying their ass off about a lot of stuff. I just can't tell which is which.
Sky News and others have independent reporters in Ukraine. They are not being thrown in jail for reporting what they see.
 
Right on queue. You should ask for a raise!

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov claimed on Thursday that a hospital which was attacked in the southern Ukrainian port city of Mariupol had been serving as a military base for nationalists.

"This maternity hospital has long been occupied by the Azov Battalion and other radicals. They drove out the women in labour, nurses and general staff. It was the base of the ultra-radical Azov Battalion," Lavrov said, following talks in Turkey with his Ukrainian counterpart.



Clearly these women were Azov fighters:

View attachment 67379237

View attachment 67379238
Man that lady in the bottom photo sure looks cranky, I would too if I was rusted out of bed by soldiers and taken to a bombed out building for a photo shoot.
 
Got any facts? Any at all? You want to talk about this hospital that got popped? Great, show me there were or weren't hostiles in that building.

You see, those sorts of details that consistently elude you matter. If that hospital was covered with machine guns, mortars, and military personnel, that changes things, right?

And you ALWAYS make assumptions that are so similar to the Putin propaganda. In this case, you even point to “what Russian said”. You are fooling no one, Ivan.
 
I mean, you don’t really mean independent media. Independent media is shows like Tucker Carlson, or various podcasts, or the American conservative. You are talking about the corporate press, which is most assuredly not independent. Most of the big funded media outlets in the west whether they be government like BBC or corporate like CNN, or merely propaganda outlets for global homo
Are they being thrown in jail for reporting what they see? No.

Tucker Carlson just interviewed a pro-Putin chump who called for NO American aid to Ukraine. But you would have us believe that the entire Western media is just as sinister as Russia's state-controlled lie factory. Ridiculous.
 
Right on queue. You should ask for a raise!

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov claimed on Thursday that a hospital which was attacked in the southern Ukrainian port city of Mariupol had been serving as a military base for nationalists.

"This maternity hospital has long been occupied by the Azov Battalion and other radicals. They drove out the women in labour, nurses and general staff. It was the base of the ultra-radical Azov Battalion," Lavrov said, following talks in Turkey with his Ukrainian counterpart.



Clearly these women were Azov fighters:

View attachment 67379237

View attachment 67379238
Oh who knows. We're getting fed the anti-Russian half of the story by our government and hysterical, exaggerated shrieks from Ukranian officials about everything. I honestly have no idea how the war is going. I have no idea if the neo-Nazi Azov pukes would cosy up in a maternity hospital, using them as human shields. They've been fighting other Ukranians for years, haven't they? The whole story is full of holes, since if it was full of women and children, one would think more would have been killed. On the other hand, where were all the Azov fighters supposedly using it as a base? And then again, why would Russians shell it if they weren't getting fired on from the grounds? Probably there is a little reality in all those scenarios somewhere.

All I know is that tut-tutting about war crimes while we sit with our thumbs up our asses and watch all this IS NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. I think it's designed to feed our anti-Russian fervor and keep attention off our ignoble moves (or lack thereof).
 
Are they being thrown in jail for reporting what they see? No.

Tucker Carlson just interviewed a pro-Putin chump who called for NO American aid to Ukraine. But you would have us believe that the entire Western media is just as sinister as Russia's state-controlled lie factory. Ridiculous.
Tucker is a dissident journalist.

And even at that he’s being surveilled by the USG.

Many other such dissidents are being persecuted like Alex Jones.

They’re not putting people in jail, yet, but they will start.
 
You seem like a thoughtful debater, but this is not the thread for this offshoot of the discussion. This thread is for updates and comments on the war. Don't leave; just scroll past the posters who can't hear you.
Yes, you are right. Point taken. I think I may have had the wrong impression at any rate.
 
Man that lady in the bottom photo sure looks cranky, I would too if I was rusted out of bed by soldiers and taken to a bombed out building for a photo shoot.
Tucker is a dissident journalist.

And even at that he’s being surveilled by the USG.

Many other such dissidents are being persecuted like Alex Jones.

They’re not putting people in jail, yet, but they will start.
Making up convenient facts on the spot is neither convincing nor honest. If that's all you have, then you have nothing.
 
There's a lot more than concern about "being invaded" (by an Eastern European country), if Putin/Russia even said that was a concern. There are issues that stem from the Soviet breakup. Plus it's said that 14,000 Russian-speaking Ukrainians have been killed. So, with the USG/NATO still being a military organization, which still seems to see Russia as a pariah, Russia's interests (not including aggression) were/are being ignored and/or pressured.

Aside from some mention, prefaced with "it's said" :rolleyes: about Russians killed, your post is uselessly vague.
 
While I appreciate why you said what you did, silence when people come on this thread to hijack it to express their pro Putin subjective opinions sometimes posters who feel misstated required rebuttal particularly when they are being responded to with comments engaging in pro Putin scripts to apologize and defend what he has ordered or what is happening on the ground to serve as disinformation ans deflection from the topic.

I wasn't talking about the posts arguing if Putin is to blame. I was responding to a post (the second one) that was strictly a complaint about debate tactics.

I can confirm she was talking about me. I was complaining about dirty debating tactics, which I may have been wrong about. I apologized to the party involved. Also, apologies to both of you and all reading here for derailing the thread. Was not my intention. As you were! :)
 
That's the problem though. Neutrality isn't enough for Russia. Ukraine was still very neutral when Russia annexed Crimea.

They can't afford for Ukraine to be neutral, Ukraine has enough natural gas and oil to end European dependence on Russian energy; the last tool besides nukes that makes Russia a relevant world power. An neutral Ukraine is a Ukraine that trades energy with Europe and that alone is an unacceptable state of affairs for the Kremlin.
Russia only seized Crimea when the pro-Russian president was ousted. Before then Russia was friendly. As to the second point Russia will obv impose some restrictions on that and make Ukraine dependent on Russian oil. Better that than what's happening now.
 
Those are 13 French vehicles who were passing through Austria into Hungary.

Neutral Austria has banned Russian aircraft from entering, but NATO can still fly or pass vehicles/equipment through Austria, as long as they are not „at war“.
So does Hungary allows defensive weapons on its territory ? In that case it was a not a weapons transport.

I am very curious on how the defense weapons are getting into Ukraine by convoy. Looking at this map Poland does look like the major candidate where everything is coming from since Hungary needs to be avoided.

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So, was the hospital seized by the far right fighters...or did they Ukrainian military bomb their own children in a false flag operation?

Come on Russia! You have to be consistent when you are spreading false narratives :rolleyes:
False narratives don't have to be consistent, alas, because there's always another false flag to point to.
 
Fascinating.

I've been really busy and haven't spent a lot of time going through these threads but it's starting to look like the majority here have begun to accept the Russian version of everything that's going on and are now turning against Ukraine. Is that an accurate assessment? If so, what changed?
 
Fascinating.

I've been really busy and haven't spent a lot of time going through these threads but it's starting to look like the majority here have begun to accept the Russian version of everything that's going on and are now turning against Ukraine. Is that an accurate assessment? If so, what changed?
From my perspective its 3-4 posters that are on the Russian teat while other posters are more reasonable. Those 3-4 posters are quite active though.
 
Fascinating.

I've been really busy and haven't spent a lot of time going through these threads but it's starting to look like the majority here have begun to accept the Russian version of everything that's going on and are now turning against Ukraine. Is that an accurate assessment? If so, what changed?

No, not really, It’s just the same few crazies as always, plus some of Putin’s social media hackers. The prevailing sentiment is to continue to push back against their Putin/TASS propaganda.
 
Fascinating.

I've been really busy and haven't spent a lot of time going through these threads but it's starting to look like the majority here have begun to accept the Russian version of everything that's going on and are now turning against Ukraine. Is that an accurate assessment? If so, what changed?

No, I don't believe that is the case.
 
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