Vox: On Second Thought, The American Revolution Was A Mistake.....

[jet57]

Oh, some more of the left wing media finding something else to be sensitive about. Here is a liberal from Vox and his take on why the American Independence was a mistake. Thinks the British would have ended slavery and provided a better form of government. What say ye?




Dylan Matthews of Vox appears to be lamenting our independence since we would have abolished slavery sooner, the Native Americans would have experienced a slightly less horrific genocide, and we would have adopted the UK’s system of government, which is totally better than America’s (coding to liberals) because it allows the governing party to bulldoze over its opponents to push through their agenda (unless it’s a question about the EU):

American independence in 1776 was a monumental mistake. We should be mourning the fact that we left the United Kingdom, not cheering it. Of course, evaluating the wisdom of the American Revolution means dealing with counterfactuals. As any historian would tell you, this is messy business. We obviously can't be entirely sure how America would have fared if it had stayed in the British Empire longer, perhaps gaining independence a century or so later, along with Canada.

But I'm reasonably confident a world where the revolution never happened would be better than the one we live in now, for three main reasons: slavery would've been abolished earlier, American Indians would've faced rampant persecution but not the outright ethnic cleansing Andrew Jackson and other American leaders perpetrated, and America would have a parliamentary system of government that makes policymaking easier and lessens the risk of democratic collapse.....snip~

Vox: On Second Thought, The American Revolution Was A Mistake - Matt Vespa

Oh it's just armchair quarterbacking a "what if" scenario. His thesis is linked to our problematic history and he;s under the impression that we could have done better "if". I don't find it to be necessarily liberal writing: "what if the south had won?", "what if we had not gone to war with Germany?". Social studies is full of questions like that. His thesis isn't anti patriotic either, it's just a delay scenario. For instance, what IF the crown had allowed Hamilton and other American - non noble industrialists to participate in the government that was running their system? Would we have avoided revolution? Would we still be British?

etc etc etc

 

[MMC]

Hey, I'm not the one outraged at a critical article of US history...

Yes but you are the one.....that thinks mocking and making fun of someone is outrage. Of course most normally don't think that being the butt end of a joke would be construed as outrage. But hey its a new dawn of civilization. Where words don't matter, Right?

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Yes but you are the one.....

Uh no. I enjoyed the article. Is it a piece of revisionist history and a giant "what if?". Yea. Do I agree that we shouldnt of partook in the American Revolution? No. Did I find the article interesting? Yes.

that thinks mocking and making fun of someone is outrage.

No I dont think that is outrage.

Of course most normally don't think that being the butt end of a joke would be construed as outrage. But hey its a new dawn of civilization. Where words don't matter, Right?

The author is the "butt end of the joke"?

 

[JANFU]

They can never understand Question Period...and how that makes for open government.

The only reason governments can get **** past us s because our politics is so boring

And how backbenchers from both-all parties can derail a policy – law –budget and such.
A superior form of governance.

 

[Fearandloathing]

And how backbenchers from both-all parties can derail a policy – law –budget and such.
A superior form of governance.

That was no more apparent than in the Reform days, a little party with no standing in the east kind of wagged the dog. It also blurs the ideology simply through openness, daily question period IS the most terrifying thing for a new cabinet minister. One slip and you have a scandal on your hands.

 

[jet57]

I thought the revisionist history part, wouldn't be hard to notice.

I didn't notice any "revisionist history" in the article. Where do you see it?

 

[JANFU]

That was no more apparent than in the Reform days, a little party with no standing in the east kind of wagged the dog. It also blurs the ideology simply through openness, daily question period IS the most terrifying thing for a new cabinet minister. One slip and you have a scandal on your hands.

I did like Preston. Had some good ideas. And yes I voted for him

 

[iliveonramen]

The parts he left out. :2wave:


The British and the French consistently pitted the native tribes against one another in the frontier lands of America, and that strategy of playing tribes off each other would have been probably entered another vicious cycle in the Napoleonic Wars. Oh, and Pontiac’s Rebellion–a three-year war against the British by a confederation of tribes along the Great Lakes–began due to British mistreatment.....snip~

That is a good point...but the Indian Removal act and wholesale slaughter, that may of been prevented. It's an argument of "what could of been" and I was just pointing out that the Colonist treatment of the natives deteriorated quickly after gaining independence and native tribes were wary of a colonist gaining Independence.

 

[Fearandloathing]

I did like Preston. Had some good ideas. And yes I voted for him

I worked for the part and was part of bringing down Kim Campbell who was my MP. We managed to split the vote and ended up with Hedy Fry for which I deeply apologize.

I went aboard because it truly was reform, we were left, right, center and agnostic, but we all wanted a change from the west getting screwed all thew time...

 

[JANFU]

I worked for the part and was part of bringing down Kim Campbell who was my MP. We managed to split the vote and ended up with Hedy Fry for which I deeply apologize.

I went aboard because it truly was reform, we were left, right, center and agnostic, but we all wanted a change from the west getting screwed all thew time...

Agreed - I am an Easterner- PEI - and voted for him. It was not only about the west- Ont - Que- hogs at the trough. Quebec more so than Ont.

 

[MMC]

I didn't notice any "revisionist history" in the article. Where do you see it?

Heya Jet. :2wave: Like I said to ILOR. The parts he left out.




The British and the French consistently pitted the native tribes against one another in the frontier lands of America, and that strategy of playing tribes off each other would have been probably entered another vicious cycle in the Napoleonic Wars. Oh, and Pontiac’s Rebellion–a three-year war against the British by a confederation of tribes along the Great Lakes–began due to British mistreatment.....snip~

 

[jet57]

Heya Jet. :2wave: Like I said to ILOR. The parts he left out.




The British and the French consistently pitted the native tribes against one another in the frontier lands of America, and that strategy of playing tribes off each other would have been probably entered another vicious cycle in the Napoleonic Wars. Oh, and Pontiac’s Rebellion–a three-year war against the British by a confederation of tribes along the Great Lakes–began due to British mistreatment.....snip~

He left out "revisionist history"? I'm sorry, I don't get that. As for Indians, you are correct. The British also promised salves that they would be freed if they took up the loyalist cause, a tactic which was actually repeated with the Emancipation Proclamation.

 

[Summerwind]

Oh, some more of the left wing media finding something else to be sensitive about. Here is a liberal from Vox and his take on why the American Independence was a mistake. Thinks the British would have ended slavery and provided a better form of government. What say ye?




Dylan Matthews of Vox appears to be lamenting our independence since we would have abolished slavery sooner, the Native Americans would have experienced a slightly less horrific genocide, and we would have adopted the UK’s system of government, which is totally better than America’s (coding to liberals) because it allows the governing party to bulldoze over its opponents to push through their agenda (unless it’s a question about the EU):

American independence in 1776 was a monumental mistake. We should be mourning the fact that we left the United Kingdom, not cheering it. Of course, evaluating the wisdom of the American Revolution means dealing with counterfactuals. As any historian would tell you, this is messy business. We obviously can't be entirely sure how America would have fared if it had stayed in the British Empire longer, perhaps gaining independence a century or so later, along with Canada.

But I'm reasonably confident a world where the revolution never happened would be better than the one we live in now, for three main reasons: slavery would've been abolished earlier, American Indians would've faced rampant persecution but not the outright ethnic cleansing Andrew Jackson and other American leaders perpetrated, and America would have a parliamentary system of government that makes policymaking easier and lessens the risk of democratic collapse.....snip~

Vox: On Second Thought, The American Revolution Was A Mistake - Matt Vespa

It's not an altogether unfounded perspective. Canada and Australia seem to be doing okay, they didn't have to have revolutions to be freed of British rule and their systems are more similar to Britain's. Evenso, it's a bit too late to be much worried about it.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Agreed - I am an Easterner- PEI - and voted for him. It was not only about the west- Ont - Que- hogs at the trough. Quebec more so than Ont.

My beginnings were in rural Ontario, then Quebec. I had no idea how bad were the discrepancies until I traveled in elections and came west. I was stunned and have written professionally about how BC has so little in common with Ontario and Quebec, and so much in common with Newfoundland....we are in fact Canada's book ends.

Unfortunately they were demonized as ultra right wing...and that killed them in the east. The move to the Alliance was the end of any "reform" and became a machine to elect people like the other parties.

 

[iliveonramen]

One, there was no UK at that time, so the whole post gets an 'F"

OOOO...got me.

Two, the British feared westward expansion because it was French Territory.....and they were kind of less than friends...

Yup...which had the effect of shielding natives

Three, no "tribes" supported the British, it was native nations, the largest of which was the Iroquois Confederacy, that comprised several nationslike the Huron, Onandaga, Mohawk, Seneca, Tuscarora, etc.

Semantics

And they backed the British because the British treated them well, made fair trades while the Colonials did not.

No ****...that was what I said....

Man o man I love correcting Americans on their own history.

I'm not sure where you corrected me....I used UK and tribes rather than "nations" oooooo got me

Have a look at least at when the Britain and its island territories became "Great Britian" and why

I know why...

 

[Hicup]

Although I agree that under a parliamentary system thing would have been different, but can we really say how different? He begins by agreeing it is "messy business" but then gets absolutely filthy with it.

There is no evidence the British would have ended slavery, as they had imposed it in the first place.

First, he ignore, as usual, Canada's history and how it gained nationhood, independence is NOT a word used here. In fact, we do not have any independence, technically speaking as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's head of state to this day. As recently as the 1980's, the Prime Minister of the day had to petition Buckingham Palace for an increase in the number of seats in our un-elected Senate. Were not allowed our own flag until 1967, which is whan Oh Canada, replaced "God Save the Queen."

Canada did not become a nation 100 years later, but a "Dominion" created by the BNA, British North America Act, which was an act of the British Parliament that remained in effect until 1982....



Americans would have had to wait 200 years for the "independence" she sought.


I also glosses over the British treatment of first nations, a less blood thirsty approach but far more devastating, it ignores Canada's struggles economically while Britian raped the resources of this land, and deliberately forced a wedge of division between French and English we are still try to heal.

The grass is always greener in your neighbor's pasture. And I am grateful I live here and not there. But it is not the utopia he makes it out to be, and the reality is nothing any American I have ever met would be able to accept.

He also forgets there would be no Theodore Roosevelt Navy, no American Army, no Air Force.....Canada's troops who served so admirably in Europe, died in greater numbers than most other countries, and some in the military ascribe to the fact Canadians were not allowed to command their own troops until after WWII.

These are not things Americans could accept.

Dunkirk comes to mind, which exaggerated the numbers, but many forget that at the end of WWII the Canadian navy was 3rd largest in the world.

Go Canada!

Tim-

 

[Fearandloathing]

Dunkirk comes to mind, which exaggerated the numbers, but many forget that at the end of WWII the Canadian navy was 3rd largest in the world.

Go Canada!

Tim-

I believe you mean 3rd largest standing army in the world, and maybe a large merchant marine. We have only ever had one air craft carrier, the Bonaventure which was scuttled in the 1960's, her wooden flight decks turned into firewood.

Dunkirk yes, Juno Beach, Dieppe where we were slaughtered and the messy, messy business of routing the Germans out of Holland. At one tenth the size of the US and the fact we were there from day one, two full years before the Yanks is something on which to be proud.

 

[Hicup]

I believe you mean 3rd largest standing army in the world, and maybe a large merchant marine. We have only ever had one air craft carrier, the Bonaventure which was scuttled in the 1960's, her wooden flight decks turned into firewood.

Well without looking (no really not looking) I could have sworn it was the 3rd largest Navy, made up mostly of Corvettes, frigates, and destroyers?

Dunkirk yes, Juno Beach,

On both Juno and Gold beach, Canadian losses were relatively small in comparison to British and American losses.

Dieppe where we were slaughtered and the messy, messy business of routing the Germans out of Holland.

Agreed! Holland and parts of Belgium were where the Germans had the most armor support and reserves. Makes you wonder about what went into that decision?

At one tenth the size of the US and the fact we were there from day one, two full years before the Yanks is something on which to be proud.

Well, to be fair we were still considered British commonwealth, so yeah, but I get your point.


Tim-

 

[Hicup]

Ok so I looked it up, seems I was correct.

By the end of the war the United States by far, Britain the second largest, and Canada the third. By 1945 the smaller Italian, German and even Japanese navies were mostly at the bottom of the ocean.

The American navy was one of the bigger navies to start with and once war production was stepped up, the U.S. produced large numbers of all categories of ships. The two biggest categories were merchant ships (e.g. liberty ships) and their escorts (e.g. corvettes). Convoys of these ships enabled the U.S. and Canada to ship vast amounts of war material to Britain and Russia.

Tim-

 

[Fearandloathing]

Well without looking (no really not looking) I could have sworn it was the 3rd largest Navy, made up mostly of Corvettes, frigates, and destroyers?





On both Juno and Gold beach, Canadian losses were relatively small in comparison to British and American losses.





Agreed! Holland and parts of Belgium were where the Germans had the most armor support and reserves. Makes you wonder about what went into that decision?




Well, to be fair we were still considered British commonwealth, so yeah, but I get your point.


Tim-

The commonwealth is a mere club anymore, it's official role having been washed with global trade and so forth.

I will try to check on the Navy thing. I have somewhat assumed we had little to no navy in WW2. The history is all about land and air engagements [where we did well too!] and especially Holland. Some years ago I met some lost tourists I thought were German, turned out to be Dutch, my age, post war...and what did they want to see? The downtown headquarters of the Princess Patricia light artillery, a kind of fort looking building put up in a matter of weeks when the war broke out. It seems every Dutch is schooled in the bravery of the liberating Canadians. I am told if you walk into some villages with a Canadian passport, you eat and drink free to this day.

If you have any info on the Canadian navy in WW2 please pass it along. I have known of the rich history of the merchant seamen and the north sea crossings but had no idea we built a lot of ships...if we did, they were indeed frigates and corvettes, we seem to love them.

 

[Hicup]

The commonwealth is a mere club anymore, it's official role having been washed with global trade and so forth.

I will try to check on the Navy thing. I have somewhat assumed we had little to no navy in WW2. The history is all about land and air engagements [where we did well too!] and especially Holland. Some years ago I met some lost tourists I thought were German, turned out to be Dutch, my age, post war...and what did they want to see? The downtown headquarters of the Princess Patricia light artillery, a kind of fort looking building put up in a matter of weeks when the war broke out. It seems every Dutch is schooled in the bravery of the liberating Canadians. I am told if you walk into some villages with a Canadian passport, you eat and drink free to this day.

If you have any info on the Canadian navy in WW2 please pass it along. I have known of the rich history of the merchant seamen and the north sea crossings but had no idea we built a lot of ships...if we did, they were indeed frigates and corvettes, we seem to love them.

Found another source this one more reliable.

The Royal Canadian Navy boasted only a small fleet of 15 ships, but the mere 1,800 officers in active service were very well trained, thanks to exchange programs with the British Royal Navy. With a sound echelon of leaders, when the Canadian industries began increasing naval production, the RCN had little trouble finding capable officers to command them. At the end of the war, the RCN operated a powerful fleet of small ships, mainly destroyers and corvettes, that played a critical role in escorting Allied convoys across the Atlantic Ocean; by 1944, RCN ships also had an increased presence in the Pacific Ocean. When the war ended in 1945, the RCN suddenly found itself as the world's third-largest navy with 95,000 personnel (which included 6,000 women) and 471 ships. In addition to building most of the 471 naval ships, the Canadian industries also built over 400 merchant ships between 1939 and 1945; these merchant ships completed more than 25,000 trips across the Atlantic.

Link: Canada in World War II | World War II Database

I can attest to the treatment Canadians receive in Europe, I have been many, many times, and experienced nothing but warmth. IN fact, my wife's sister and her boyfriend travelled Europe on foot after college and I told them to wear Canadian clothing instead of American. It paid off big time and they were both welcomed. Strange that American's are not as welcome?


Tim-

 

[Fearandloathing]

Found another source this one more reliable.



Link: Canada in World War II | World War II Database

I can attest to the treatment Canadians receive in Europe, I have been many, many times, and experienced nothing but warmth. IN fact, my wife's sister and her boyfriend travelled Europe on foot after college and I told them to wear Canadian clothing instead of American. It paid off big time and they were both welcomed. Strange that American's are not as welcome?


Tim-

My only experience in Europe was in France on my way to Poland to do a documentary on solidarity. When we got to the frontier I discovered I had left my passport in my bag, stored forward in the car. When I explained the Polish guard asked "American?" I said "No sir, I am Canadian.' He said "go, have good time." Considering they carried machine guns and were being watched by Russians I was impressed

Thanks for the info on the navy...I had no idea. A banner day is when you learn something new.

 

[Kobie]

Anything to support greater statism.

This is a ridiculous opinion, but none the less, one that he's allowed to have, regardless of it's stupidity (much different than the intolerant left).

Frankly, I'd be embarrassed to hold this opinion.

:roll:

 

[Ancient Herald]

I say no. It was not a mistake. It was a very good idea.

The problem is in a free society there will be a lot of junk to weed out, as some people do not value things like freedom, individuality. They claim they do, but they are liars who misuse and abuse the words to obfuscate people. The only thing some people care about is money and power and their own self perceived authority, and they are an ends justify the means kinds of people who have no sense of honor, decency, or integrity.

When you educate yourself you can see those people for who they are and treat them accordingly.

Unfortunately, they are succeeding in slowly destroying America and the traditional values that made America great.