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Virginia high court rules for teacher who won't use transgender students' pronouns

NotreDame

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I just said so didn't I, please read back.



Because he was.




Yes I did, please read back.



"Wrong" and "right" are opposites are far from "meaningless
Did you not learn that at school ?



Really ?
Which "smart" people ?
And who are you to be able to characterize them as "smart" ?
What is your criteria ?

Yep, you say a lot and say nothing simultaneously.

You have provided no argument, evidence, or reasoning there was any “wrong” done.

This is your damn, flawed, and tiring approach, you make a claim and think it’s right and you need to do no more.

And time and again you fail to follow the damn dialogue.

You made this mind numbing reply:
Wrong" and "right" are opposites are far from "meaningless
Did you not learn that at school ?

Can’t follow along? I didn’t say they were meaningless.

I said, “Your claiming of “wrong” is meaningless, It is no different than someone else claiming they were “right.””

Claiming! Claiming! Claiming! Did not “learn” to follow along “at school?”
 

Rich2018

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Yep, you say a lot and say nothing simultaneously.

That you fail to comprehend is not my problem.

You have provided no argument, evidence, or reasoning there was any “wrong” done.

Again, I am not responsible for your limited capacity to comprehend.

This is your damn, flawed, and tiring approach, you make a claim and think it’s right and you need to do no more.

And time and again you fail to follow the damn dialogue.

You need to damn well improve your reading comprehension skills
Isn't the use of expletives fun - it makes you sound so intelligent

NB: I said "sound".

You made this mind numbing reply:

I'm not interested in the state of your mind.

Can’t follow along? I didn’t say they were meaningless.

I said, “Your claiming of “wrong” is meaningless, It is no different than someone else claiming they were “right.””

Just because you deem it "wrong" doesn't make it so
You have singularly failed to demonstrate that this is the case.

Claiming! Claiming! Claiming! Did not “learn” to follow along “at school?”

Another rambling, incoherent rant, that's not untypical of your posts.
 

mrjurrs

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Ah, and the beauty of freedom is to refuse to call someone by a specific, requested title. You know, freedom, the very word you have expressed antipathy towards time and again at forum.

What are you so afraid of if people have this freedom?
You're right, Americans do have the freedom to be assholes. Your freedom to throw a punch ends at the end of my nose. Agree or disagree?
 

ClaraD

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The only "medical evidence" to support them is called Gender Dysphoria and it is as I stated, a form of mental derangement.

There are only two genders to the human species, plus mutations, and that gender is determined by the number of the two types of sex chromosomes. Not by the twisted desires of the mentally deranged.


I would suggest an education in basic biology.
actually there is quite a significant population that medically is both sexes and were born that way.
 

NotreDame

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That you fail to comprehend is not my problem.



Again, I am not responsible for your limited capacity to comprehend.



You need to damn well improve your reading comprehension skills
Isn't the use of expletives fun - it makes you sound so intelligent

NB: I said "sound".



I'm not interested in the state of your mind.



Just because you deem it "wrong" doesn't make it so
You have singularly failed to demonstrate that this is the case.



Another rambling, incoherent rant, that's not untypical of your posts.

No you don’t get it.

All you’ve done is to claim some conduct us wrong. That’s it. You’ve not provided any evidence the conduct is wrong. You’ve provided no supportive reasoning demonstrating the conduct is wrong. The conduct isn’t “wrong” because you say so but that is precisely your argument.

Oh wait, that’s right, you think because Vindman said it was “wrong” is evidence the conduct was wrong. But that commits the same error you have committed, which is Vindman claimed a wrong but claiming a wrong does not establish a wrong.

And yes the use of expletives is cathartic when addressing someone who persistently delides themselves into thinking over and over they’ve made a claim supported by evidence and reason when they haven’t.

The problem isn’t comprehension, it’s your repeated inability to understand how to support your claim with something more than you say so or someone else says so.
 

NotreDame

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You're right, Americans do have the freedom to be assholes. Your freedom to throw a punch ends at the end of my nose. Agree or disagree?

Assuming the intentional physical contact above, that of a punch to someone else’s nose, doesn’t fall within rational exceptions to the rule, then yes. Because there are in fact situations where there is freedom to punch another in the nose.
 

NotreDame

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In a Democracy, you have the right to be wrong.

And your freedom to “say” they are wrong, without establishing the existence of any moral or ethical rule beyond your own subjective palate, or a supportive argument/evidence, is a freedom you have championed.
 

Unbeknownst

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From the innerwebz:
[removed to shorten wordcount]
So tell me how it that a problem for the rest of us to worry about?
Odd how you looked up "dysphoria" and not "gender dysphoria," which is the specific we're actually talking about, and which looking up would allow you to get the correct definition.

I'm sure you didn't do that on purpose, right?

Anyway, according to the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), in order to meet the criteria for GD, "the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

In other words, the dysphoria must be severe enough that's it's making it hard for you to function normally. And that's why people with GD need treatment: so they can be functioning members of society like everyone else.

While this actually has absolutely nothing to do with you, if you happen to be a teacher with a trans student in your class, it is part of your job to accommodate them, the same way you have to accommodate students with autism and ADHD. All this teacher had to do to accommodate this student's transition is to call them by their preferred pronouns, and he didn't even do that.
OR get mental heatlthcare and [snipped to shorten wordcount] feelings of depression.
We tried therapy, it just made things worse. No medications have been developed yet. That's why I said it's the only treatment, nothing else has been proven to fix gender dysphoria.
Sex changed transsexuals still have a high degree of suicide. Why is that?
Discrimination, harassment, hate crime, lack of acceptance, etc.
No, the teacher just refuses to play a silly game of LYING to the student and to everyone else about what is clearly a claimed gender. Why force society to
play along with this charade?
...Because it's the only way for trans people to be able to function normally? Regardless of what you think of gender identity, all that matters is this is how you treat GD.

And since I dug through my studies folder, might as well list more of them.

"In particular, allowing children to present in everyday life as their gender identity rather than their natal sex is associated with developmentally normative levels of depression and anxiety. " (Source)

"...our findings add to the collective body of evidence suggesting that multiple sources of gender affirmation may help to curb self-harm and poor mental health symptoms in transgender people." (Source)

"Transgender and nonbinary youth who report having their pronouns respected by all or most of the people in their lives attempted suicide at half the rate of those who did not have their pronouns respected." (Source)
If a student wanted to be called a unicorn, should we play along?
Studies don't show that there exists a condition wherein one experiences intense "unicorn dysphoria" to the extent that it interferes with their ability to function normally. Studies don't show that attempts to treat "unicorn dysphorics" with therapy makes the dysphoria worse. Studies don't show that calling a "unicorn dysphoric" a unicorn will alleviate symptoms of "unicorn dysphoria" and allow them to function normally.
He is teaching REALITY. One aberrant confused student does not get to reinvent natural reality for everyone else.
Reality is:
  • This student has GD
  • The treatment is to transition
  • This student's transition involves a change in pronoun usage
If this teacher is uncomfortable accommodating students with different conditions, he should not be teaching.
 

mrjurrs

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Assuming the intentional physical contact above, that of a punch to someone else’s nose, doesn’t fall within rational exceptions to the rule, then yes. Because there are in fact situations where there is freedom to punch another in the nose.
Accidental physical contact would certainly fall under this dictum. Think "the election was stolen" and the 1.6 insurrection.
 

Rich2018

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No you don’t get it.

All you’ve done is to claim some conduct us wrong. That’s it. You’ve not provided any evidence the conduct is wrong.

It is wrong, because people agree it is wrong

We agree that people, whose name is Peter, are called Peter.

You’ve provided no supportive reasoning demonstrating the conduct is wrong. The conduct isn’t “wrong” because you say so but that is precisely your argument.

Oh wait, that’s right, you think because Vindman said it was “wrong” is evidence the conduct was wrong.

Because people who're commissioned in the US army and hold the rank of Lt Colonel or Colonel should be addressed as "Colonel"

Similarly, people who hold a PhD, are entitled to be addressed as "Doctor"

There are web pages out there that give the correct form of address for all people with titles, decorations, awards or who hold certain offices/positions

Would you like to be pointed in the direction of one ?
 

Court Jester

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Odd how you looked up "dysphoria" and not "gender dysphoria," which is the specific we're actually talking about, and which looking up would allow you to get the correct definition.

I'm sure you didn't do that on purpose, right?

Anyway, according to the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), in order to meet the criteria for GD, "the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

Yeah, crazy people are crazy. What did I say that didn't agree with that?

Shall society change everything just to make crazy people feel more comfortable? I think not.

In other words, the dysphoria must be severe enough that's it's making it hard for you to function normally. And that's why people with GD need treatment: so they can be functioning members of society like everyone else.

Yep, crazy people find it hard to function normally.


While this actually has absolutely nothing to do with you, if you happen to be a teacher with a trans student in your class, it is part of your job to accommodate them, the same way you have to accommodate students with autism and ADHD.

Autism and ADHD presents along a broad spectrum of behaviors. Some are very high functioning, some are not. An autistic child who screams all day long could not be accommodated in a normal classroom setting, and it would be unrealistic to make the school or other students be affected by that.

Why do you folks always seek to bend the rest of society to YOUR demands? Forcing teachers to call people, "it, they," or other silly things which are NOT what a person is, is forcing society to play a game we don't need to play. If the child is boy it is a HE. A girl, it is a she.


All this teacher had to do to accommodate this student's transition is to call them by their preferred pronouns, and he didn't even do that.

Nope
 

Court Jester

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I just read this story about more drama coming from Loudoun County and the constant claim that it is parents who are threatening this out of control woke/liberal progressive school board. A parent was arrested for disorderly conduct at the school board meeting after one of the board members accused him about lying over an attack by a "gender fluid" male in the girls restroom. Police investigation confirm that a rape took place in the restroom but since it involves a juvenile the record is sealed.

This is why we need to call out the crazies for this transsexual push. It does not serve society to not have separate restrooms and locker rooms for males and females. If a restroom is just for one person at a time, then it doesn't matter. But allowing biological MALES inside of restrooms for girls is STUPID. And then beyond that this HORSESHIT that a person can claim to be a male or a female at will, and then change back their identity at will is CRAZY.

His daughter was raped at school by a male claiming to be a transsexual female.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...g-says-daughter-raped-boy-girls-bathroom.html
 

Rich2018

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I just read this story about more drama coming from Loudoun County and the constant claim that it is parents who are threatening this out of control woke/liberal progressive school board. A parent was arrested for disorderly conduct at the school board meeting after one of the board members accused him about lying over an attack by a "gender fluid" male in the girls restroom. Police investigation confirm that a rape took place in the restroom but since it involves a juvenile the record is sealed.

This is why we need to call out the crazies for this transsexual push. It does not serve society to not have separate restrooms and locker rooms for males and females. If a restroom is just for one person at a time, then it doesn't matter. But allowing biological MALES inside of restrooms for girls is STUPID. And then beyond that this HORSESHIT that a person can claim to be a male or a female at will, and then change back their identity at will is CRAZY.

His daughter was raped at school by a male claiming to be a transsexual female.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...g-says-daughter-raped-boy-girls-bathroom.html

Stupid Republicans.

Why can't people by who they want to be instead of being set up for being raped ?
 

NotreDame

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It is wrong, because people agree it is wrong

We agree that people, whose name is Peter, are called Peter.



Because people who're commissioned in the US army and hold the rank of Lt Colonel or Colonel should be addressed as "Colonel"

Similarly, people who hold a PhD, are entitled to be addressed as "Doctor"

There are web pages out there that give the correct form of address for all people with titles, decorations, awards or who hold certain offices/positions

Would you like to be pointed in the direction of one ?

No! No! That cannot be logical.

One person saying “it is wrong” doesn’t make it “wrong” on the basis they said so, and it stands to reason a collection of people saying “it is wrong” doesn’t make it “wrong” on the basis they said so.

A chorus of people signing in unison something is “wrong” doesn’t make it “wrong,” and it isn’t wrong because “they said so,” and the “wrongfulness” of something is not determined by collective agreement. At best all you’ve established is some number of people say and believe something is wrong but that doesn’t establish something as wrong.

Your argument is the same as before, something is “wrong” because of a “said so,” and whether the “said so” is by one person or ten, or more, doesn’t and isn’t sufficient to establish something is wrong.

And the implications of your logic are troublesome, in which what is wrong and right ethically/morally is based on “said so” and group think.

Because people who're commissioned in the US army and hold the rank of Lt Colonel or Colonel should be addressed as "Colonel"

Sorry man but that is circular logic. That reasoning begs the question. The entire issue is whether there is a “should.” Once again, “should” is language reflective of ethical and/or moral conduct. I’m not aware of any moral/ethical rule, and you’ve submitted none, that says I “should” do what you propose. Is that moral/ethical rule in the Bible? Koran? The writings of Kant? Aristotle? Confucius?

Or is this “should” just a moral/ethical rule you think exists, think is a great way to live, and now seek to tell other people they are to live by this ethical/moral rule you think exists?

Similarly, people who hold a PhD, are entitled to be addressed as "Doctor"

Entitled? Once again, provide evidence and reasoning for this entitlement that other people are to call them by such a title. They do not have a right that others call them by any specific title. They can ask others to address them by some title but they aren’t “entitled” that someone else must call them by the requested title.

There are web pages out there that give the correct form of address for all people with titles, decorations, awards or who hold certain offices/positions

So what? That doesn’t establish a moral or ethical rule they are to be called by those titles, or “should” be called by those titles. Rather, that’s good ol’ fashion accolade boasting. Yeah, I’ve done it, cum laude for undergraduate, cum laude for law school, law review, law clerk for judges, but none of that means it is wrong if someone refused to call me by some title.

There could be a web page where someone has the “title” of “king, lord, Sir” and there’s no moral or ethical rule anyone call them by any of those titles.
 
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Unbeknownst

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Yeah, crazy people are crazy. What did I say that didn't agree with that?

Shall society change everything just to make crazy people feel more comfortable? I think not.

Yep, crazy people find it hard to function normally.

Autism and ADHD presents along a broad spectrum of behaviors. Some are very high functioning, some are not. An autistic child who screams all day long could not be accommodated in a normal classroom setting, and it would be unrealistic to make the school or other students be affected by that.

Why do you folks always seek to bend the rest of society to YOUR demands? Forcing teachers to call people, "it, they," or other silly things which are NOT what a person is, is forcing society to play a game we don't need to play. If the child is boy it is a HE. A girl, it is a she.

Nope
Cute how you didn't address any of the studies I linked..
 

Rich2018

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No! No! That cannot be logical.

Captain

One person saying “it is wrong” doesn’t make it “wrong”

But a majority does

So if the majority (or even vast majority) of people, agree that someone with a PhD is entitled to be addressed as "Doctor", and if that person so wishes that form of address, it is wrong to use another.

A chorus of people signing in unison something is “wrong” doesn’t make it “wrong,”...

We're not talking about something objective like a mathematical proof here, we're talking about something subjective, so it does.

Your argument is the same as before...

At least I posses one.

...that is circular logic. That reasoning begs the question. The entire issue is whether there is a “should.” Once again, “should” is language reflective of ethical and/or moral conduct....

And is subjective, so the views of the majority outweigh those of the minority.

Or is this “should” just a moral/ethical rule you think exists...

Morality is subjective.

Entitled? Once again, provide evidence and reasoning for this entitlement that other people are to call them by such a title....

The subjective majority view.

So what? That doesn’t establish a moral or ethical rule they are to be called by those titles...

Yes it does since adherence to that "rule" is subjective.

There could be a web page where someone has the “title” of “king, lord, Sir” and there’s no moral or ethical rule anyone call them by any of those titles.


Yes there is. It's called the majority view, and is subjective.
 

Court Jester

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Cute how you didn't address any of the studies I linked..
Hahaha... I don't need to address any of the "studies" you require for affirmation. You can find anyone who will do "a study" that comes up with any answers you like after they get paid for that "study".

Address this. Study THIS, it's all so simple to figure out. Why do you ignore the obvious?

reproductive_health2.jpg
 

Unbeknownst

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Hahaha... I don't need to address any of the "studies" you require for affirmation. You can find anyone who will do "a study" that comes up with any answers you like after they get paid for that "study".
Do you have any proof that the method the studies used were flawed, or that the writers had some unprofessed conflict of interest? Have you researched the funding of each study and discovered undeniable proof that the many different researchers were coerced into fabricating results?

Please share with the class.

I suspect you have nothing to share; however, because you pulled this right out of your ass. You can't just invoke "conspiracy" every time someone cites evidence you don't like. Unless you can prove the existence of this study-fabricating cabal then you've got no leg to stand on.
Address this. Study THIS, it's all so simple to figure out. Why do you ignore the obvious?

reproductive_health2.jpg
I have been specifically avoiding making arguments about gender vs sex identity, so I don't know why you're bringing reproductive organs into this? I never said the student is "actually" male or female.

I'm just saying calling the student what they want to be called is part of the "social transition" aspect of the treatment they're undergoing for GD, and the teacher should accommodate this. It is a small and reasonable accommodation to make.
 

Nilhus

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Students demanding to be referred to by either He or She have medical evidence to support it them, unlike god-king.
The only "medical evidence" to support them is called Gender Dysphoria and it is as I stated, a form of mental derangement.
"gender dysphoria" is pseudo-scientific garbage(as all of psychiatry is) invented for ideological and political reasons.
 

Lisa

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"gender dysphoria" is pseudo-scientific garbage(as all of psychiatry is) invented for ideological and political reasons.
What political reason did Christine Jorgenson have in 1950?


After Jorgensen’s military service, she went to photography school in New Haven, Connecticut, and dental assistant school in New York City. Jorgensen was still unhappy with her life, however, and she began to look for answers in books, hoping she might find answers. One book called The Male Hormone piqued her interest and helped explain her problems, which led her to start taking estrogen. Then, she consulted with doctors about surgeons in Europe who had already performed sex reassignment surgery. Jorgensen was determined to be transformed into a woman, and in 1950, she traveled to Denmark to pursue her dreams.
When Jorgensen arrived in Denmark, she met endocrinologist Dr. Christian Hamburger, who agreed to do the experimental procedure for free. He was the first person to diagnose Jorgensen as transsexual and not homosexual. For the next two years, Jorgensen underwent hormone treatment, psychiatric evaluations, and finally surgery to remove her male genitalia. Unfortunately, she did not receive a surgically created vagina until years later when she was back in the United States. Before she returned to the United States, she had one last alteration to make in order to complete her transformation. She changed her name to Christine in honor of Dr. Hamburger’s work of making her dreams come true.

 
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