Vietnam vs. Iraq...

[conserv.pat15]

Are comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq fair?

 

[Hatuey]

They're about as accurate as comparing Iraq to WWII. You can't compare wars. They're not cars or houses. There are millions of different factors that have to be taken into consideration.

 

[1069]

Are comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq fair?

I don't know enough about either one to say (which is reprehensible, considering my grandfather died in Vietnam, and my dad was a conscientious objector).
On the surface, it seems there are similarities.
But war- military strategy- is not one my fields of interest, and so I just don't know for sure. There could be- and no doubt are- a lot of differences I'm unaware of.

 

[Billo_Really]

We were in Vietnam for 15 years!

Time to leave, was way over due.

 

[1069]

We were in Vietnam for 15 years!

Time to leave, was way over due.

:doh

See, there you go.
I didn't know that (although I knew it was a long time).
That's too fu<king long. :?
You're right: time to go.

 

[Kandahar]

I agree with what the others have said. There were lots of similarities. There were also lots of differences.

 

[jfuh]

Similarities:
Both fought over a make believe threat
Both where there was no clear mission goal - ie, when will Iraq be considered over?
Both unpopular wars
Who is the enemy?Who is an innocent bystander
Pass the buck presidencies
Ideologue vs realist
As much as the local populace dislikes the former leadership, neither do they like us.
Guns, bullets and bombs still do not destroy an ideology

Dissimilarities:
1960's vs 2000's
one was against communism the other - removing Saddam?
Competent vs incompetent leadership - both flawed
Micromanagement vs no management
France started Vietnam, Bush started Iraq.
Johnson would compromise and accept responsibilities, Bush is arrogant to everyone - even daddy.
Vietnam tore apart the Democratic party, Iraq has torn apart the Republican party.

 

[1069]

Dissimilarities:
1960's vs 2000's
one was against communism the other - removing Saddam?
Competent vs incompetent leadership - both flawed
Micromanagement vs no management
France started Vietnam, Bush started Iraq.
Johnson would compromise and accept responsibilities, Bush is arrogant to everyone - even daddy.
Vietnam tore apart the Democratic party, Iraq has torn apart the Republican party.

.. Draft. As yet, a dissimilarity.

 

[Kandahar]

.. Draft. As yet, a dissimilarity.

That's not gonna happen.

 

[imprtnrd]

When all of the foreign countries are out of Iraq, it will fall just like Vietnam.

 

[Navy Pride]

When all of the foreign countries are out of Iraq, it will fall just like Vietnam.

You wish my liberal friend.......:roll:

Iraq and Nam are as different as night and day........

 

[Hatuey]

You wish my liberal friend.......:roll:

Iraq and Nam are as different as night and day........

Make sure you remind people of that when they compare Iraq to WWII.

 

[jfuh]

That's not gonna happen.

Maybe it should? Would these politicians think twice with a draft?

 

[Kandahar]

You wish my liberal friend.......:roll:

Iraq and Nam are as different as night and day........

Yeah, George Bush had an exit strategy from Vietnam. :lol:

 

[Morrow]

I think you should be more specific about what comparisons are being considered unfair.

 

[dragonslayer]

1. South Vietnam was a legitimate government recognized by the United Nations, and South Vietnam invited the United States to come into Vietnam.

2. Iraq was a legitimate government recognized by the United Nations and the United States invaded Iraq for no known reason.

1. In one scenario, we are the helpers and allies of the Government.

2. In the second scenario, we are the destroyers of the Government, and enemy of Iraq, and we still are. the new government of Iraq is our puppet govenment.
If they did not agree with our policies in Iraq and they wanted us to leave, Bush and Cheney would kill them all and start over again.

 

[Fiercely Proud American]

Iraq is not another Vietnam - that is what the DemLibSocs of Congress and our society want everyone to believe.

But hey, I was there, don't take my word for it - consider - in part (it's only 7 pages long and a good read for anyone really interested):

Please wait while you are redirected

Iraq Is Not Vietnam
By Frederick W. Kagan
Frederick W. Kagan is resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.

WHEN AMERICAN GROUND forces paused briefly during the march to Baghdad in 2003, critics of the war were quick to warn of a “quagmire,” an oblique reference to the Vietnam War. Virtually as soon as it became clear that the conflict in Iraq had become an insurgency, analogies to Vietnam began to proliferate. This development is not surprising. Critics have equated every significant American military undertaking since 1975 to Vietnam, and the fear of being trapped in a Vietnam-like war has led to the frequent demand that U.S. leaders develop not plans to win wars, but “exit strategies,” plans to get out of messes.

There is no question that the Vietnam War scarred the American psyche deeply, nor that it continues to influence American foreign policy and military strategy profoundly. CENTCOM’s strategy for the counterinsurgency effort in Iraq is an attempt to avoid making Vietnam-like mistakes. Proponents of other strategies, like “combined action platoons” or “oil spot” approaches, most frequently derive those programs from what they believe are the “right” lessons of Vietnam. It is becoming increasingly an article of faith that the insurgency in Vietnam is similar enough to the insurgency in Iraq that we can draw useful lessons from the one to apply to the other. This is not the case.

The only thing the insurgencies in Iraq and Vietnam have in common is that in both cases American forces have fought revolutionaries. To make comparisons or draw lessons beyond that basic point misunderstands not only the particular historical cases, but also the value of studying history to draw lessons for the present.

The real reason that the Vietnam example remains so prominently in many people’s minds, of course, is that the U.S. lost that war. By comparing Iraq to Vietnam, many people are expressing the fear that because America lost one and because of certain superficial similarities, the U.S. is on the road to losing the other. This “lesson” of history is the least valid of all. America may fail in Iraq, but, if so, it will not be because of any similarity to Vietnam. It is much more likely, moreover, that if the Bush administration pursues a sound strategy in this struggle, the U.S. — and the Iraqi people — will win.

 

[26 X World Champs]

You wish my liberal friend.......:roll:

Iraq and Nam are as different as night and day........

Really? How so Navy Pride? How about, just this once you actually prove your assertion rather than just stating a one sentence opinion?

Please elaborate in detail with relevant examples and links to sites that back up your opinion how Iraq and Vietnam are "as different as night and day"?

Humor me Navy Pride, willya?

I think that the two wars are very different BUT the lessons (mistakes) we should have learned from Vietnam are being repeated over and over again by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice. So while the actual raisin d'etre for the conflicts are very different the management of the wars are eerily similar.

George Santayana:

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Truer words have never been spoken about the Bushniks! Emphasis on DOOMED!

 

[Fiercely Proud American]

26 X World Champs:

I think that the two wars are very different BUT the lessons (mistakes) we should have learned from Vietnam are being repeated over and over again by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice. So while the actual raisin d'etre for the conflicts are very different the management of the wars are eerily similar.

I would respectfully disagree with your assumption.

Perhaps you'd like to read the article I posted - then retrace how LBJ handled Vietnam as opposed to how President Bush has handled Iraq.

While I agree with going into Iraq - I do not agree with the overall handling of the ground war - which is why I started another thread on that subject.

However, again I will state Iraq is not another Vietnam.

 

[Fiercely Proud American]

Are comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq fair?

First, Iraq is not another Vietnam.

Now, some comparisons can be discussed to a point but to conclude they are the same is just plain stupid.

 

[ptsdkid]

First, Iraq is not another Vietnam.

Now, some comparisons can be discussed to a point but to conclude they are the same is just plain stupid.

***The only reasonable comparison one could make between the two, is that while liberals insured we would lose Vietnam--they are just as determined that we lose the Iraqi war. You do remember my asking for a modern day liberal quote showing that they want us to win this war? Still waiting for one.

 

[26 X World Champs]

26 X World Champs:


I would respectfully disagree with your assumption.

Perhaps you'd like to read the article I posted - then retrace how LBJ handled Vietnam as opposed to how President Bush has handled Iraq.

While I agree with going into Iraq - I do not agree with the overall handling of the ground war - which is why I started another thread on that subject.

However, again I will state Iraq is not another Vietnam.

That article is not from what I consider to be a creditable source, sorry. The American Enterprise Institute is one of the most partisan Republican organizations in America.

For example, some of their "fellows" are:

David Frum Canadian politics; U.S. politics; Bush administration (Bush speech writer who wrote the "Axis of Evil" speech and the "Yellowcake in Niger" speech.

Newt Gingrich Health care policy; Information technology; Military; U.S. politics

Jeane J. Kirkpatrick (1926-2006) Defense; Latin America; Europe; United Nations; Middle East; National security; Russian region

Irving Kristol (Bill Kristol's Father) Writes about politics, culture, ethics, and religion. In July 2002, President George W. Bush awarded Kristol the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Fred Thompson National security and intelligence (China, North Korea, and Russia)

Need I go on? I could give you another hundred or so examples. Not one "fellow" is a Democrat or a Progressive. The writings that AEI produces are always pro-Bush and defend every policy that he enacts.

My point again is not that the conflicts are the same but that the mistakes are similar, way too similar. What do the two conflicts have in common?

Both were wars waged to "defend" the USA from a phoney threat (Communism in Vietnam and Saddam and Al Qaeda in Iraq).

Both became un-winnable wars due to our presence (but not only due to our being there).

Both wars rallied locals against our presence and resulted in unexpected guerrilla attacks against Americans simply because we are there and thus became hated targets.

Both wars dragged on and on and on as they did we lost ground in the fight and that has caused the American public to turn against both wars in huge numbers.

Both cost immensely in lives lost and dollars spent. Both caused world opinion of the USA to diminish.

Both wars ended up being incredible recruiting tools for our enemies.

There are so many more similarities that I could write but I hope I've made my point.

Bottom line is that my point is not about how Iraq and Vietnam are similar in the day to day execution of the war or how we got there but they are eerily alike when you look at the results of our actions and the mistakes that brought about the results.

 

[26 X World Champs]

***The only reasonable comparison one could make between the two, is that while liberals insured we would lose Vietnam--they are just as determined that we lose the Iraqi war. You do remember my asking for a modern day liberal quote showing that they want us to win this war? Still waiting for one.

Your apparent misunderstanding of who America's enemies are is at the root of your not understanding what a terrible decision to go to war in Iraq was.

Saddam was never our enemy, never a threat in 2001, 2002 or 2003 and Iraq is most definitely not a threat to our security in 2007...except if you consider that our actions are serving as an unbelievable recruiting tool for people who hate Americans.

Our enemy was and is Al Qaeda! Bush has not spent our resources properly and that's why Al Qaeda has now regrouped and reorganized and restrengthened itself.

Get it? Iraq is not our enemy... Al Qaeda is and the Al Qaeda that is our enemy is not based in Iraq though we're indirectly training them now in how tp be much stronger fighters by the training grounds we've created for them in Iraq.

 

[EAGLE1]

I agree with much of the above.

Also, how did Liberals and not the military lose the Vietnam war?

 

[Navy Pride]

Make sure you remind people of that when they compare Iraq to WWII.

There is no comparison.....