Vietnam building deterrent against China in disputed seas with Submarines.....

[Demon of Light]

It's the reason there isn't a country on it's border that they haven't been to war with in the last 50 or 60 years.

Pakistan, North Korea, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Laos, Myanmar, Nepal, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan . . .

 

[Hamster Buddha]

Pakistan, North Korea, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Laos, Myanmar, Nepal, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan . . .

North Korea I don't count, it's essentially a province of China anyways. Now for the list of countries they have been involved in conflict:

Russia, Japan, Taiwan (Before they were Taiwan of course) Vietnam, Tibet, and India. So while your list might be bigger, my countries are bigger than yours.(I'll give you Pakistan though) The point still stands, that there isn't a major (except Pakistan) that they haven't been in conflict with.

 

[Perotista]

Looks like the Vietnamese will play with China's head.....while at the same time Putin gets to drop a sale of 3 more subs on them in 2 years. What say ye?


Vietnam will soon have a credible naval deterrent to China in the South China Sea in the form of Kilo-class submarines from Russia, which experts say could make Beijing think twice before pushing its much smaller neighbor around in disputed waters. A master of guerrilla warfare, Vietnam has taken possession of two of the state-of-the-art submarines and will get a third in November under a $2.6 billion deal agreed with Moscow in 2009. A final three are scheduled to be delivered within two years.

The Vietnamese are likely to run so-called area denial operations off its coast and around its military bases in the Spratly island chain of the South China Sea once the submarines are fully operational, experts said. That would complicate Chinese calculations over any military move against Vietnamese holdings in the Spratlys or in the event of an armed clash over disputed oil fields, even though China has a much larger navy, including a fleet of 70 submarines, they added.....snip~

Vietnam building deterrent against China in disputed seas with submarines

China is the Goliath of Asia much like we were the Goliath of the north. Vietnam is looking I think for some sort of a military alliance with us, they have already let us use Cam Ranh Bay. In fact we could probably port there or have some ships station there permanently if we wanted. Vietnam has also sent observers to our yearly Cobra Gold exercises in Thailand. They want to become a part of it. Countries participating besides Thailand and the U.S. include South Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia.

I would not be surprised if Vietnam does not become an active member in these exercises in a couple of years. As for the subs, they are nice to have.

 

[radioman]

China is the Goliath of Asia much like we were the Goliath of the north. Vietnam is looking I think for some sort of a military alliance with us, they have already let us use Cam Ranh Bay. In fact we could probably port there or have some ships station there permanently if we wanted. Vietnam has also sent observers to our yearly Cobra Gold exercises in Thailand. They want to become a part of it. Countries participating besides Thailand and the U.S. include South Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia.

I would not be surprised if Vietnam does not become an active member in these exercises in a couple of years. As for the subs, they are nice to have.

Hey, Pero.
This is all pretty funny.
It was just a couple weeks ago that some posters were very worried about a China-Russia natural gas deal.
Now Russia turns around and sells Vietnam subs, which would appear to undermine any renewed Sino-Soviet alliance.
Seems as if all the players in this little drama are looking out for their own best interests.
As they should.

 

[Perotista]

Hey, Pero.
This is all pretty funny.
It was just a couple weeks ago that some posters were very worried about a China-Russia natural gas deal.
Now Russia turns around and sells Vietnam subs, which would appear to undermine any renewed Sino-Soviet alliance.
Seems as if all the players in this little drama are looking out for their own best interests.
As they should.

The deal for the subs was made several years ago and Cobra Gold exercises in Thailand have been going on for over 30 years. I think Vietnam would like nothing better than to have both Russia and the U.S. as allies. Vietnam never trusted China, China at one point ruled Vietnam for a 1,000 years. That 1,000 years is not mistyping or adding one or two zeros.

China became a convenient ally of Vietnam during the war, much like we did with Joe Stalin during WWII. But animosity between China and Vietnam runs high.

 

[radioman]

Vietnam never trusted China, China at one point ruled Vietnam for a 1,000 years. That 1,000 years is not mistyping or adding one or two zeros.

animosity between China and Vietnam runs high.

Yeah, wasn't there a quote from Ho Chi Minh along the lines of....."I'd prefer to eat American s*** for a few years rather than Chinese s*** for a thousand..."
Possibly apocryphal but probably an accurate assessment of the Vietnamese attitude.

 

[Perotista]

Yeah, wasn't there a quote from Ho Chi Minh along the lines of....."I'd prefer to eat American s*** for a few years rather than Chinese s*** for a thousand..."
Possibly apocryphal but probably an accurate assessment of the Vietnamese attitude.

I don't know about that quote, but it does make sense. Ho never tried to defeat us militarily. He knew it couldn't be done. But he didn't need to, he could fight his little guerrilla war, he could choice when to fight and when not to, he chose where, the time etc. He knew we wouldn't invade the north and he had sanctuaries in Laos and Vietnam to supply and rest up his troops. His battle was political, his goal, to out last us and he succeeded just fine.

Oh, he tested us a couple of times with straight out conventional war, but both times it failed. Then he waited until we left. Then he tested us once more to see if we would return, the rest is history.

 

[radioman]

I don't know about that quote, but it does make sense. Ho never tried to defeat us militarily. He knew it couldn't be done. But he didn't need to, he could fight his little guerrilla war, he could choice when to fight and when not to, he chose where, the time etc. He knew we wouldn't invade the north and he had sanctuaries in Laos and Vietnam to supply and rest up his troops. His battle was political, his goal, to out last us and he succeeded just fine.

Oh, he tested us a couple of times with straight out conventional war, but both times it failed. Then he waited until we left. Then he tested us once more to see if we would return, the rest is history.

Very difficult to bomb such a primitive, widely dispersed enemy into submission.
Our bombing strategy worked in Serbia because they had an actual infrastructure worth destroying.

 

[Perotista]

Very difficult to bomb such a primitive, widely dispersed enemy into submission.
Our bombing strategy worked in Serbia because they had an actual infrastructure worth destroying.

Yes and whatever one might thing of Clinton, he never ruled out the use of ground forces.

 

[PoS]

Are you sure it started with a "c" and not another "a"? I could have sworn that was it.

Yep, they started it.

Who built up their navy and started harrassing the Vietnamese, Philippines and Japan?

Who started to print their passports with a map showing they owned the entire South China sea?

Who towed an oil rig into disputed waters?

Who started ramming Vietnamese fishing boats and sunk a few?

Who started an air exclusion zone over international waters?

I'll give you three guesses...

 

[Demon of Light]

North Korea I don't count, it's essentially a province of China anyways. Now for the list of countries they have been involved in conflict:

Russia, Japan, Taiwan (Before they were Taiwan of course) Vietnam, Tibet, and India. So while your list might be bigger, my countries are bigger than yours.(I'll give you Pakistan though) The point still stands, that there isn't a major (except Pakistan) that they haven't been in conflict with.

Taiwan and Tibet do not count since they were not really independent countries but territories that China reclaimed or has sought to reclaim. Not sure what you mean by Japan, unless you are talking about the non-violent tension, which does not really count, because the Sino-Japanese war was all on Japan. It is only Russia, Vietnam, and India where there were actual conflicts with foreign countries. The Sino-Indian War was border tension that escalated due to actions by both sides and was not some war of aggression. For you to treat the Sino-Soviet border conflict as aggression is just an example of ignorance on the geopolitics. The Sino-Vietnamese War is the only thing that could be described as a war of aggression, albeit in response to the Vietnamese invading China's ally Cambodia. Overall, China was in a defensive posture at that time and was not engaged in some expansionist conflict against any of those parties.

Yep, they started it.

Who built up their navy and started harrassing the Vietnamese, Philippines and Japan?

Who started to print their passports with a map showing they owned the entire South China sea?

Who towed an oil rig into disputed waters?

Who started ramming Vietnamese fishing boats and sunk a few?

Who started an air exclusion zone over international waters?

I'll give you three guesses...

Who seized all those islands and started building military bases and airports on them before China? Who has a rather horrific track record of invading and oppressing China that is now rapidly building up its own military as it tries to whitewash that horrific track record? What outside power that currently dominates the region once threatened to nuke China while having troops on their border and considers them to have been "lost" with many voices happily rejoicing in the thought of the downfall of its government?

 

[PoS]

Who seized all those islands and started building military bases and airports on them before China? Who has a rather horrific track record of invading and oppressing China that is now rapidly building up its own military as it tries to whitewash that horrific track record? What outside power that currently dominates the region once threatened to nuke China while having troops on their border and considers them to have been "lost" with many voices happily rejoicing in the thought of the downfall of its government?

So just because Japan invaded China over 75 years ago gives the Chinese the right to harass everyone now and attempt an annexation? Puh-lease. Japan was pretty peaceful since after the war and they are now only beginning to re-arm themselves thanks to China's provocations. China is the bad guy here, that is clear to everybody except the Chinese.

 

[Hamster Buddha]

Taiwan and Tibet do not count since they were not really independent countries but territories that China reclaimed or has sought to reclaim. Not sure what you mean by Japan, unless you are talking about the non-violent tension, which does not really count, because the Sino-Japanese war was all on Japan. It is only Russia, Vietnam, and India where there were actual conflicts with foreign countries. The Sino-Indian War was border tension that escalated due to actions by both sides and was not some war of aggression. For you to treat the Sino-Soviet border conflict as aggression is just an example of ignorance on the geopolitics. The Sino-Vietnamese War is the only thing that could be described as a war of aggression, albeit in response to the Vietnamese invading China's ally Cambodia. Overall, China was in a defensive posture at that time and was not engaged in some expansionist conflict against any of those parties.

With Japan, I was actually going as far back to World War 2, though on my part I did only say 60 years... I was a decade off, time flies . It's nice how you discount Tibet and Taiwan though, of course, I think a lot of people in said countries would have a real problem with you glossing over China's actions in both instances (namely the Dhali Llama). I get it, you want ot make excuses for China and that's fine, Monte on here makes excuses for Russia all the time and I'm cool with him. Still, that doesn't change the fact that China has always been of the mindset that all that is within her line of sight, is hers, and **** all else. Sort of manifest destiny if you will. This idea isn't a new one mind you, it dates back millenias, just recently have they had the ability to back up such claims. The important thing at this point is to recognize the only reason there is an arms race in the region (Whether it be here, or with Japan north of here) it's because of China's provocative action.

The question you should be asking is, how is this different from the Monroe Doctrine in the US. The reason for the difference, is that the Monroe Doctrine was a defensive one by it's nature. Unlike with China, the whole purpose of the policy was to prevent further interference from European powers. Many could argue that this has effectively turned the Latin and South American to the US's playground, and they wouldn't be far off. However, what it has also ensured is the fact that many independent countries have sprung up in an area where otherwise they would of still been colonizing. For example, much like was done to the the Chinese around the turn of the 20th century. As it concerns China, what they have going on isn't so much Monroe, but a Manifest Destiny. Just look at their policies in the South and East China Seas, and they can only be seen through expansionist lenses.

 

[iliveonramen]

According to what I am being told. We have over 70 ourselves. So the Chinese have already equaled us in Numbers.

When I see numbers mentioned I just remember back to the first Gulf War and the large "well supplied and well trained" Iraqi Republican Guard using Soviet arms.

 

[MMC]

When I see numbers mentioned I just remember back to the first Gulf War and the large "well supplied and well trained" Iraqi Republican Guard using Soviet arms.

Well....for myself. I would rather deal with an Iraqi Army or any Arab one than having to fight the Chinese. 100 mil Jet Li's puts that into perspective.

 

[Demon of Light]

So just because Japan invaded China over 75 years ago gives the Chinese the right to harass everyone now and attempt an annexation? Puh-lease. Japan was pretty peaceful since after the war and they are now only beginning to re-arm themselves thanks to China's provocations.

Japan's re-armament is not something that is just happening out of the blue and your attempt to pin that all on China is just a further demonstration of your general ignorance on these matters. If anything the "great China threat" has kept them from re-arming faster since it allows the U.S. an excuse to take some of the responsibility and take the burden off Japan. Remember that their peaceful stance was largely forced on them, not something they simply chose of their own volition.

The question you should be asking is, how is this different from the Monroe Doctrine in the US. The reason for the difference, is that the Monroe Doctrine was a defensive one by it's nature.

:inandout:

 

[PoS]

Japan's re-armament is not something that is just happening out of the blue and your attempt to pin that all on China is just a further demonstration of your general ignorance on these matters. If anything the "great China threat" has kept them from re-arming faster since it allows the U.S. an excuse to take some of the responsibility and take the burden off Japan. Remember that their peaceful stance was largely forced on them, not something they simply chose of their own volition.

You can demonize Japan all you want but the fact is they have been peaceful and refrained from massively rearming their military and rarely deployed them overseas until China started harassing all the other countries in the disputed region. So yes, China did start this arms race.

 

[Hamster Buddha]

Japan's re-armament is not something that is just happening out of the blue and your attempt to pin that all on China is just a further demonstration of your general ignorance on these matters. If anything the "great China threat" has kept them from re-arming faster since it allows the U.S. an excuse to take some of the responsibility and take the burden off Japan. Remember that their peaceful stance was largely forced on them, not something they simply chose of their own volition.

:inandout:

You're only thinking about it from the application of it in the 20th century. Remember in the beginning when it was setup, the US was still an isolationist country. But the last thing we were going to tolerate was further expansion of European powers into the area. I'm surprised you didn't know all this already though.

In any event, China's policy is of course very aggressive in nature. Sending in fishing boats by the hundreds and thousands to provoke action in the South China Sea? Declaring no-fly zones in disputed islands? It's clear who is the provocateur.