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Viability point

What is the cut off point for abortions per the OP premises?

  • Never allow an abortion even if it kills the mother and child.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14
It's always intriguing when people refuse to answer a hypothetical.

First, there definitely is evidence. Guttmacher's own staff determined that women aren't getting later abortions for reason of fetal anomalies or life endangerment. They simply didn't know they were pregnant until late, and got an abortion for the same reasons cited for early abortions.

If a law were passed banning abortions after viability (however it is defined) would you support it?
How about a link to the Guttmacher study that says women "aren't getting later abortions for reasons of fetal anomalies or life endangerment." Post the and the quote that says women "simply didn't know they were pregnant until late and go an abortion for the same reasons cited for early abortions.

Clever how you imply that early abortions are done for whimsical , irrelevant and selfish reasons....... clever by really nasty.
 
Bodily autonomy up until the point of fetal viability.

After that threshold it should only be to save mothers life.
 
What I'm for or against is irrelevant. The question is at what point does the state have an interest in the fetus compelling enough to interject the itself into the decision of whether to abort or not.
If you had read Roe v Wade you would know at what point the state has an interest: and you would know why. It's all explained in the decision. Why do you get you information out of the bottom of the of the information dumpster?Read original sources so you have some clue before you start spouting nonsense.
 
How about a link to the Guttmacher study that says women "aren't getting later abortions for reasons of fetal anomalies or life endangerment." Post the link and the quote that says women "simply didn't know they were pregnant until late and got an abortion for the same reasons cited for early abortions.

Clever how you imply that early abortions are done for whimsical , irrelevant and selfish reasons....... clever by really nasty.
We are waiting for your link. We'll wait another 4 hours and then we'll assume that information is just another scrap of propaganda from the bottom of the information dumpster with no available source or links.
 
Bodily autonomy up until the point of fetal viability.

After that threshold it should only be to save mothers life.
I'd like to think that a fellow citizen would allow the woman to have an abortion to protect her from, say, paralysis from the neck down or when there was a fetal anomaly (they are not just disabled).
 
If you are pro-choice, do you feel that abortion should be available on-demand at any point, or only before the viability point of development?
I'm happy with the current araingment.
 
...The question is at what point does the state have an interest in the fetus compelling enough to...
Roe v. Wade section 9a spells that out pretty clearly.
 
Viability is a red herring, and always has been. That a human being is dependent on another is not justification to kill him or her. That's how the Nazis viewed things.
Damn... I never expected to read such a stupid post from you.
 
Are you opposed to abortion after viability?
That is not relevant. What matters is that the woman has control of her own body. There are many non-human examples of animals/insects doing shit that compromises another animal/insect's body and nobody is upset at the host defending itself. Everybody deserves the right to bodily autonomy.
 
Are you opposed to abortion after viability?
Pretty much everybody, and most importantly mothers, are opposed to abortion after viability.

The stats back this up but that does not stop stupid ****ing arguments being used again and again like yours... to create drama.

Stop trying to control other people. That is a 1400's way of viewing the world. People need to evolve.
 
I'd like to think that a fellow citizen would allow the woman to have an abortion to protect her from, say, paralysis from the neck down or when there was a fetal anomaly (they are not just disabled).

Fair point
 
SO this will be mostly for the pro-choice side, although I am putting some choices for the pro-life because you know that they will chime in regardless.

If you are prochoice, do you feel that abortion should be available on demand at any point, or only before the viability point of development? Why or why not?

Premises:
Viability point is obviously variable, so yes an arbitrary point would have to be decided, much like we use 18 as the arbitrary point of adulthood. That exact point is not important for the question.

The question is assuming that the mother's life is not in imminent danger nor is the fetus in danger of dying in womb or shortly after birth nor is deformed in any manner.

The mother has been aware of the pregnancy since at least 12 weeks (3 months), if not sooner.
I’m willing to listen to arguments restricting abortion after 24 weeks.
 
I'm not sure that this is completely the case for viability; because it is the point at which the fetus could take in oxygen outside the woman, by potentially voluntary breathing. As for the age of majority, though, it should have everything to do with what is voluntary and mental.
IS viability just breathing, or should the ability to suckle also be a criteria for viability? And again, while we can say that these points happen around such and such week, that is still based upon a bell curve average, and some will be viable before that point and some after. Hence if a point is encoded into law, it is arbitrarily chooses. Same with age of majority. That is why there is such a high range around the world.
 
No that makes no sense at all. If 99% of the people do want abortion and the government still insists on making it legal then those 99% are living under a tyranny not a democracy.

So you are saying that if 99% of the people in the US want it legal for the government to just come in on a moment's notice and take blood or a spare organ on a moment's notice, then such should be legal? Or if 99% of the people want the US to be under Catholic based law, that it should be?

And if you have bothered to read any of my posts through many abortion threads you will find I am not among those who hold contradictory views in such a manner.

I can't recall if you personally made the argument, but if one makes the argument that a woman can abort because the ZEF is not among the "born" and thus has no rights, then you can't turn around and claim she can't abort later in the pregnancy. That would be a contradictory view. What would be the basis for restricting that abortion?

Women do not get late term abortions on a whim, there is no evidence of that.

Never claimed otherwise. Is there a certain significant number of people who have to engage in something for the right to engage in that to exist? If gun ownership drops below a certain amount, say .01%, does the right to bear arms suddenly no longer become a right?

Doctors are bound by their own ethics and must try and save the life of a preemie if possible.

Never claimed otherwise here either. Ultimately a woman's right is to have the pregnancy terminated, not terminate her genetic offspring. That is why she can not abort an offspring of hers if it is in a surrogate's womb. Furthermore, ethics would be something above and beyond the law. There is no law that mandates that a woman wanting an abortion forces a doctor to provide one, nor what they do afterwards. That is also beyond the scope of the question. I had the phrase "if you can find a doctor willing" in option 3 for a reason.

The argument of viability is nothing more than another foolish attempt by anti abortionists to demonise women.

Then there should be no problem with a woman having the right to abort the fetus right through month 9.

Abortion is a private medical issue not a legal one.

Then so is conversion therapy.

And please do not bother to point out you are not an anti abortionist when you are catering to their propaganda of demonising women.

So, I am the one who is advocating that women should be allowed to choose to do with their bodies, right through month 9, what they want to do, because it is their bodies, and yet somehow I am demonizing women? How do you figure that? What argument for saying that they should be allowed to abort earlier in the pregnancy's, suddenly go away? Does the fetus suddenly get rights or personhood? Does her right of bodily autonomy suddenly go away? Is it suddenly no longer a decision between her and her doctor?

If you want a personal choice then make it on a subject that does not try and demonise women by pretending that they will get abortions for no good reason in late term and the rest of society (meaning men) should decide for women what they can or cannot do.

Define a good reason for an abortion. Is not wanting to no longer be pregnant a good reason? What makes it a good reason at 20 weeks but not at 30 weeks? Keep in mind, the number of women who would get one has nothing to do with whether it's a good reason or not. I'll go back to my earlier premise; if 99% of women don't want to get abortions for any reason, is it suddenly no longer a right to get an abortion. If only one woman a year wants to get an abortion, does not that right to do so still exist, or does it go away because practically no one gets one? And for that matter, looking at early term abortions, does a woman even need a good reason to get an abortion? Isn't it her right to get one, regardless of whether the reason is good or bad?
 
I have made my point clear and answered. Which is no, I do not support an unnecessary law. Abortion is not a legal issue.
SO then you do support a woman being able to get an abortion right up to the end. That's all I wanted to know.
 
Bodily autonomy up until the point of fetal viability.

After that threshold it should only be to save mothers life.
Why does the bodily autonomy suddenly go away?
 
Note I said the word should. I did not say prohibit.
You still said bodily autonomy up to viability. So if the mother's life is not in danger, why is her bodily autonomy suddenly gone?
 
You still said bodily autonomy up to viability. So if the mother's life is not in danger, why is her bodily autonomy suddenly gone?

Where did I say it was gone?
 
Are you opposed to abortion after viability?
No, I'm not opposed to abortion after viability. It's a physical, medical, psychiatric, and financial issue that requires decision making from the woman, the doctor and the family. Unfortunately religious conservatives have tangled it into a moral and religious web of emotionalism about who is morally right and who is evil.

Abortion should be free from religious moralizing. Abortion, like a colonoscopy, an appendectomy, the setting of a broken bone should include a family consultation about mental and physical health of the patient, family stability and financial resources. It doesn't require input from the local Evangelical Church of the Inerrant Bible or any other sect claiming exclusive rights to the correct morality.

The interests of the state in the health of the fetus as a potential new citizen are protected by feticide and/or infanticide laws in all states. No physician would recommend the abortion of a healthy, normal, viable fetus any more than they would recommend the amputation of a healthy normal foot.
 
Why does the bodily autonomy suddenly go away?
Because at some point it really is a shared experience.

24-36 weeks, fetal rights come into play

12-24 weeks, you better come up with a good argument for why I should care about the fetus.

0-12 weeks, you have got to be kidding me. I don't give a **** about a sub-12 week ZEF.
 
Actually doctors are opposed to abortion when there is viability. There own medical ethics standard does not allow abortion after viability unless more than one doctor agrees the child will not survive.

What, no concern if it's the woman at stake?
 
24-36 weeks, fetal rights come into play

On what basis does the fetus get rights, and how does it override the woman's bodily autonomy?
 
What, no concern if it's the woman at stake?
I did specify in the OP that the hypothetical woman was not at risk of dying.
 
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