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Viability point

What is the cut off point for abortions per the OP premises?

  • Never allow an abortion even if it kills the mother and child.

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maquiscat

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SO this will be mostly for the pro-choice side, although I am putting some choices for the pro-life because you know that they will chime in regardless.

If you are prochoice, do you feel that abortion should be available on demand at any point, or only before the viability point of development? Why or why not?

Premises:
Viability point is obviously variable, so yes an arbitrary point would have to be decided, much like we use 18 as the arbitrary point of adulthood. That exact point is not important for the question.

The question is assuming that the mother's life is not in imminent danger nor is the fetus in danger of dying in womb or shortly after birth nor is deformed in any manner.

The mother has been aware of the pregnancy since at least 12 weeks (3 months), if not sooner.
 

Phys251

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SO this will be mostly for the pro-choice side, although I am putting some choices for the pro-life because you know that they will chime in regardless.

If you are prochoice, do you feel that abortion should be available on demand at any point, or only before the viability point of development? Why or why not?

Premises:
Viability point is obviously variable, so yes an arbitrary point would have to be decided, much like we use 18 as the arbitrary point of adulthood. That exact point is not important for the question.

The question is assuming that the mother's life is not in imminent danger nor is the fetus in danger of dying in womb or shortly after birth nor is deformed in any manner.

The mother has been aware of the pregnancy since at least 12 weeks (3 months), if not sooner.

Viability means the minimum time in womb that the fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving outside the womb. Before this time, abortion should be legal and easily accessible for any reason of any kind. This was the crux of the Roe v. Wade ruling.

After viability, I am willing to support some restrictions on abortions. For example, I do not believe that third-term abortions on demand should be legal. There should be a legitimate reason, such as a serious threat to the mother's health or a severe birth defect.
 

choiceone

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Viability means the minimum time in womb that the fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving outside the womb. Before this time, abortion should be legal and easily accessible for any reason of any kind. This was the crux of the Roe v. Wade ruling.

After viability, I am willing to support some restrictions on abortions. For example, I do not believe that third-term abortions on demand should be legal. There should be a legitimate reason, such as a serious threat to the mother's health or a severe birth defect.
I agree with your choice. Doctors in places without restrictions such as Canada and Oregon ordinarily use viability as their own guide, anyway.

Roe v Wade made a trimester system and set the limit for the third trimester, with 26 weeks the limit because that was medically determined viability at the time. This changed with Planned Parenthood v Casey, because viability had been determined to be about 22+ weeks.

The plurality opinion in the latter case suggested that there could be a future problem because viability could be set back farther and farther. Articles on line often say that artificial wombs will soon be here. However, viability has not changed since the date of that case, 1992, because of the fetal lung development stage.

The Mississippi case taken up by the SC doesn't like viability, claiming it is too ambiguous, and has made a law asserting 15 weeks.
 

Phys251

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I agree with your choice. Doctors in places without restrictions such as Canada and Oregon ordinarily use viability as their own guide, anyway.

Roe v Wade made a trimester system and set the limit for the third trimester, with 26 weeks the limit because that was medically determined viability at the time. This changed with Planned Parenthood v Casey, because viability had been determined to be about 22+ weeks.

The plurality opinion in the latter case suggested that there could be a future problem because viability could be set back farther and farther. Articles on line often say that artificial wombs will soon be here. However, viability has not changed since the date of that case, 1992, because of the fetal lung development stage.

The Mississippi case taken up by the SC doesn't like viability, claiming it is too ambiguous, and has made a law asserting 15 weeks.

That's why we need a Constitutional Amendment protecting all womb owners' absolute right to abortion on demand prior to viability or 22 weeks, whichever comes later. Any change to that should require nothing less than another Amendment, not a ruling from a bunch of unaccountable, right-wing activist judges.
 

choiceone

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That's why we need a Constitutional Amendment protecting all womb owners' absolute right to abortion on demand prior to viability or 22 weeks, whichever comes later. Any change to that should require nothing less than another Amendment, not a ruling from a bunch of unaccountable, right-wing activist judges.
Yes.
 

ecofarm

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18 for adulthood is not arbitrary. It could not as easily have been 6 or 50. It's established by the experience and power a person amasses according to age and then applying that to social dynamics in determining an ability to make informed consent.

It's absurd that you propose adulthood could as easily be 6 years old.
 

soylentgreen

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For a country that has been bred to fear its own government you people place a lot of trust in the governments ability to make these decisions.

There is no need for abortion to be a matter of law. It is a medical issue between a woman and a doctor. It is simply demonising women to argue that they will get late terms abortions if they are legal. There really are no evidence that women try to get abortions at that late stage just on a whim. And doctors are under a medical ethical law and it is a law as it can be used to bar a doctor from practising if they break it.
 

ecofarm

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Further, let's not pretend 18 is some stark and sudden line that one might stumble across. There's a whole lot of years of grey area, 19, 20, etc wherein a full grown man dating that person is sick and pathetic and ****ed up and he probably should go to prison but he doesn't because it's technically legal. However, at some point that sick and pathetic behavior crosses a line and becomes criminal. Let's be clear: getting anywhere near that line is sick and pathetic and probably should be imprisoned. Crossing that line leaves behind all doubt and is, thankfully, prosecuted.

There's nothing arbitrary about it.
 

maquiscat

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18 for adulthood is not arbitrary. It could not as easily have been 6 or 50. It's established by the experience and power a person amasses according to age and then applying that to social dynamics in determining an ability to make informed consent.

It's absurd that you propose adulthood could as easily be 6 years old.
If you look at human history, adulthood has been as early as 11 or 12. For awhile in recent history it was 16, and has now been moved up to 18. And there are those who feel it should be 21 or even 25. The reality is that 1) maturity varies from person to person, meaning that one person might be mature enough for adulthood at 16 and another at 21. And 2) what society determines to be maturity varies not only person to person, but age to age. So yes, it is an arbitrary determination, even if it comes within a limited range.
 
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maquiscat

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For a country that has been bred to fear its own government you people place a lot of trust in the governments ability to make these decisions.

There is no need for abortion to be a matter of law. It is a medical issue between a woman and a doctor. It is simply demonising women to argue that they will get late terms abortions if they are legal. There really are no evidence that women try to get abortions at that late stage just on a whim. And doctors are under a medical ethical law and it is a law as it can be used to bar a doctor from practising if they break it.
Personally, I am just looking for individual opinions, even if that is not where they politically stand. Hmmm. I probably should have included that in the premises as well.

However, regardless of where you stand on the issue, it needs to be recognized that abortion/pregnancy is a very unique situation. One life (regardless of whether it is recognized as a person or not) is using the bodily resources of another. There is no other similar situation. The closest we have organ/blood donation. It's not like we are using humans for dialysis or blood cleaning. So we do need to look at this through law to determine if rights exists, and whose rights override who's when there is conflict.
 

maquiscat

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Do you know why?
Did you respond before I did my edit? I had accidentally hit the post because of a car bounce (I'm currently a passa
 

ecofarm

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Did you respond before I did my edit? I had accidentally hit the post because of a car bounce (I'm currently a passa

It's because women were property and the younger, thus less experienced, the more valuable. It wasn't because kids were so grown up.
 

maquiscat

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It's because women were property and the younger, thus less experienced, the more valuable. It wasn't because kids were so grown up.
That was the age of adulthood for males as well. Try again.
 

ecofarm

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That was the age of adulthood for males as well. Try again.

Males were treated differently. The age of adulthood was the result of commodity price. It had nothing to do with kids supposedly being super grown up. That's an absurd and dumbass claim.
 

choiceone

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Males were treated differently. The age of adulthood was the result of commodity price. It had nothing to do with kids supposedly being super grown up. That's an absurd and dumbass claim.

You people talking about the age of adulthood seem to be on the wrong forum. This forum is about the point of viability in the abortion debate.
 

soylentgreen

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Personally, I am just looking for individual opinions, even if that is not where they politically stand. Hmmm. I probably should have included that in the premises as well.

However, regardless of where you stand on the issue, it needs to be recognized that abortion/pregnancy is a very unique situation. One life (regardless of whether it is recognized as a person or not) is using the bodily resources of another. There is no other similar situation. The closest we have organ/blood donation. It's not like we are using humans for dialysis or blood cleaning. So we do need to look at this through law to determine if rights exists, and whose rights override who's when there is conflict.
No I disagree there is no difference in the abortion case. It is just the anti abortionists trying to pretend there is.

No one is arguing that we need government to interfere with the right a man to say no to a kidney transplant even when the donor is dead and no longer needs their kidney. It is still a choice the individual makes for themselves. Abortion is just a decision made between a woman and a doctor it needs no more government interference than a man does when deciding what happens to his body.
 

Bodi

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SO this will be mostly for the pro-choice side, although I am putting some choices for the pro-life because you know that they will chime in regardless.

If you are prochoice, do you feel that abortion should be available on demand at any point, or only before the viability point of development? Why or why not?

Premises:
Viability point is obviously variable, so yes an arbitrary point would have to be decided, much like we use 18 as the arbitrary point of adulthood. That exact point is not important for the question.

The question is assuming that the mother's life is not in imminent danger nor is the fetus in danger of dying in womb or shortly after birth nor is deformed in any manner.

The mother has been aware of the pregnancy since at least 12 weeks (3 months), if not sooner.
I would like to think that mothers could and would make their chose PRIOR to viability. It is pretty shitty to wait much longer but in some cases it can not be helped and no matter what the woman should have the final say about her body... even if it is after viability. But we all know that the longer a pregnancy lasts the less likely that an abortion will occur.
 

Bodi

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That's why we need a Constitutional Amendment protecting all womb owners' absolute right to abortion on demand prior to viability or 22 weeks, whichever comes later. Any change to that should require nothing less than another Amendment, not a ruling from a bunch of unaccountable, right-wing activist judges.
That is the only way to do it... an Amendment.

Of have the President grant future pardons to all women who have an abortion.
 

Bodi

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If you look at human history, adulthood has been as early as 11 or 12. For awhile in recent history it was 16, and has now been moved up to 18. And there are those who feel it should be 21 or even 25. The reality is that 1) maturity varies from person to person, meaning that one person might be mature enough for adulthood at 16 and another at 21. And 2) what society determines to be maturity varies not only person to person, but age to age. So yes, it is an arbitrary determination, even if it comes within a limited range.
Adulthood was never 11 or 12...

11 year old girls being married off to old letch's for business partnerships and child bearing was common though.
 

Atreus21

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SO this will be mostly for the pro-choice side, although I am putting some choices for the pro-life because you know that they will chime in regardless.

If you are prochoice, do you feel that abortion should be available on demand at any point, or only before the viability point of development? Why or why not?

Premises:
Viability point is obviously variable, so yes an arbitrary point would have to be decided, much like we use 18 as the arbitrary point of adulthood. That exact point is not important for the question.

The question is assuming that the mother's life is not in imminent danger nor is the fetus in danger of dying in womb or shortly after birth nor is deformed in any manner.

The mother has been aware of the pregnancy since at least 12 weeks (3 months), if not sooner.

Viability is a red herring, and always has been. That a human being is dependent on another is not justification to kill him or her. That's how the Nazis viewed things.
 

weaver2

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Viability is a red herring, and always has been. That a human being is dependent on another is not justification to kill him or her. That's how the Nazis viewed things.
Viability is not a red herring. The SC in Roe v Wade settled the issue of when the state had a compelling interest in the fetus and could make laws controlling abortion. They concluded that until viability of the fetus the state had no interest in the fetus but that they had a compelling interest in the health of the mother which they determined meant that abortion should be available (legal) to all women without hindrance from the state until viability.

There is no connection between the American issue of abortion and the Nazi torture of and experimentation on people. That whole argument is not just dumb it is irrelevant.
 

Atreus21

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Viability is not a red herring. The SC in Roe v Wade settled the issue of when the state had a compelling interest in the fetus and could make laws controlling abortion. They concluded that until viability of the fetus the state had no interest in the fetus but that they had a compelling interest in the health of the mother which they determined meant that abortion should be available (legal) to all women without hindrance from the state until viability.

There is no connection between the American issue of abortion and the Nazi torture of and experimentation on people. That whole argument is not just dumb it is irrelevant.

Are you opposed to abortion after viability?
 

weaver2

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Are you opposed to abortion after viability?
What I'm for or against is irrelevant. The question is at what point does the state have an interest in the fetus compelling enough to interject the itself into the decision of whether to abort or not.
 

soylentgreen

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Are you opposed to abortion after viability?
Actually doctors are opposed to abortion when there is viability. There own medical ethics standard does not allow abortion after viability unless more than one doctor agrees the child will not survive.
 
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