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Veterans - and attitudes about the draft (your thoughts?)

Aunt Spiker said:
My children's elementary school held a small and touching Veteran's Day ceremony at school. Some of the students prepared speeches to read. One invited the veterans upfront and asked each questions about their service (such as how long they've been in, why they joined, and how they felt about their country).

Two of the Veterans were drafted several decades ago - and both made a point to bring this up and to emphasize that they "had no choice, they had to go"

One then explained that he was fortunate not to go and fight (war or mission unnamed) because he was injured during training.

Everyone else, however (my husband included) in that line *did* choose to go and several of the men took obvious offense to the attitude and response of these two veterans - openly emphasizing in their responses that they *chose* to go and would encourage others to do the same.

Overall: I think the entire tension (over the entire exchange) that ensued was inappropriate - we were at school in front of hundreds of children - PreK-4th grade. The tension might not have been sensed by most of hte students but my daughter DID notice- and I'm sure other kids did too.

But my thought on this, more so, was about the 'Veteran' who didn't actually deploy. . . technically - he's not a *Veteran* . . . nor was he proud of his training-service time, either. He was bitter and seemed to use the opportunity to point that out. . . Personally - I found that to be horribly offensive and highly inappropriate *in general* (not just referring to it being done so *at * the school-ceremony)

Your thoughts on his response and his attitude (because I'm sure his attitude isnt' *just* to him)
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i just wonder why you think it's so awful that the man considered himself fortunate. don't you think student should be exposed to all points of view? how exactly did he espouse his bitterness?
 
cpwill said:
i don't think he was a 'veteran'. he didn't even make it out of training. i got hurt in Boot Camp - if I had been dropped from the service then I certainly would not have gone around claiming to be a Marine; and if i had, any Marine would have been justified in thumping me for it.
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I agree, if you never made it out of training you are not a veteran. Just like if you flunk out of med/law school you are not a doctor/lawyer. :shrug:

Don't try to claim to be something you are not. Another thing that bugs me is those officers who will claim to be "prior enlisted" in order to get the Joes to think more highly of them. and then when you ask for details you find out that they were a ROTC cadet that went to basic training.

signing up for basic does not make one a veteran and attending basic does not make one prior enlisted.
 
OscarB63 said:
I agree, if you never made it out of training you are not a veteran. Just like if you flunk out of med/law school you are not a doctor/lawyer. :shrug:

Don't try to claim to be something you are not. Another thing that bugs me is those officers who will claim to be "prior enlisted" in order to get the Joes to think more highly of them. and then when you ask for details you find out that they were a ROTC cadet that went to basic training.

signing up for basic does not make one a veteran and attending basic does not make one prior enlisted.
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i wonder why he was invited? stupid teachers?
 
liblady said:
i wonder why he was invited? stupid teachers?
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probably. that or he just flat out lied. teachers probably sent a request home with the kids asking if any of them had relatives who were veterans and "uncle Joe" told little timmy that he was a veteran.

I had a POS uncle like that. he always talked about what he did in Vietnam. You'd have thought he was a freakin war hero. In actuality, he was a cook in the Navy. never touched a weapon and the only "combat" he saw was fighting off the hookers on shore leave.
 
OscarB63 said:
probably. that or he just flat out lied. teachers probably sent a request home with the kids asking if any of them had relatives who were veterans and "uncle Joe" told little timmy that he was a veteran.

I had a POS uncle like that. he always talked about what he did in Vietnam. You'd have thought he was a freakin war hero. In actuality, he was a cook in the Navy. never touched a weapon and the only "combat" he saw was fighting off the hookers on shore leave.
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sorry, oscar, neither of us know that man's circumstances, or even what he really said. maybe what he said was misconstrued, but anyway, he has a right to his opinions. but i agree, he's not a veteran.
 
liblady said:
sorry, oscar, neither of us know that man's circumstances, or even what he really said. maybe what he said was misconstrued, but anyway, he has a right to his opinions. but i agree, he's not a veteran.
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he was invited to a veteran's day event because someone thought he was a veteran. Therefore, he lied, either outright or by omission. He knew he wasn't really a veteran and should have excused himself from this event when the invitation went out. The fact that he didn't leads me to believe he wanted to make some kind of "statement".

And I agree, he does have a right to his opinions. but he does not have the right to espouse them under the false pretense of being a veteran.

The only other alternative is that he is so freaking stupid that he actually believes washing out of basic training makes you a veteran. :shrug:
 
OscarB63 said:
he was invited to a veteran's day event because someone thought he was a veteran. Therefore, he lied, either outright or by omission. He knew he wasn't really a veteran and should have excused himself from this event when the invitation went out. The fact that he didn't leads me to believe he wanted to make some kind of "statement".

And I agree, he does have a right to his opinions. but he does not have the right to espouse them under the false pretense of being a veteran.

The only other alternative is that he is so freaking stupid that he actually believes washing out of basic training makes you a veteran. :shrug:
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if we knew the whole story i could better respond. and fwiw, some soldiers are stupid, just like any number of civilians.
 
liblady said:
if we knew the whole story i could better respond. and fwiw, some soldiers are stupid, just like any number of civilians.
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what more is there to know? the guy claimed he was drafted and injured in training and therefore never served. he is not a veteran. therefore we are left with 3 options

1. the guy is a liar.

2. the guy is ignorant and doesn't know the definition of "veteran".

3. the OP is a liar and made the whole damn thing up.


my money is on "the guy is a liar"
 
OscarB63 said:
what more is there to know? the guy claimed he was drafted and injured in training and therefore never served. he is not a veteran. therefore we are left with 3 options

1. the guy is a liar.

2. the guy is ignorant and doesn't know the definition of "veteran".

3. the OP is a liar and made the whole damn thing up.


my money is on "the guy is a liar"
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i agree with you he isn't really a veteran. but as for the rest of it? who knows. what i do know is that any responsible teacher would have a good idea of what a speaker would have to say to a class before inviting them.
 
You become a soldier when you sign on the dotted line, not when you finish basic training. You can be court martialed under military codes in basic training, so clearly you are a part of the military. He gave up his time, his energy, and clearly his health to serve his country, even if he didn't want to. Now, I'm not suggesting he deserves a purple heart or anything like that. But he certainly served his country.
 
Paschendale said:
You become a soldier when you sign on the dotted line, not when you finish basic training. You can be court martialed under military codes in basic training, so clearly you are a part of the military. He gave up his time, his energy, and clearly his health to serve his country, even if he didn't want to. Now, I'm not suggesting he deserves a purple heart or anything like that. But he certainly served his country.
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no, you become a "trainee" when you sign on the dotted line. you become a soldier when you finish training. you cannot be "court martialed under UCMJ in basic training". for periods of service less than 180 (which BMT is) you are given an administrative separation, not a courts martial. if you commit a felony (rape, murder, etc) while in basic training you get handed over to the appropriate civil authorities.

the only "service" he did for his country was to give a brief respite (however long he was there before he got hurt) to the next poor sap on the draftee list.

he is many things...but "veteran" is not one of them.
 
Paschendale said:
You become a soldier when you sign on the dotted line, not when you finish basic training. You can be court martialed under military codes in basic training, so clearly you are a part of the military. He gave up his time, his energy, and clearly his health to serve his country, even if he didn't want to. Now, I'm not suggesting he deserves a purple heart or anything like that. But he certainly served his country.
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Actually, even now days, most guys aren't considered a veteran until after they get out of training. In fact, while in Basic, it isn't even that hard to get out. If you really want out, they will separate you from the service. Now, you most likely will not ever be able to volunteer to serve in any branch after that if you do just quit, but it will just be a separation, no punishment (besides perhaps basic boot camp punishment including pushups and the like if the RDCs/DIs choose to administer it and the person chooses to do it). We were asked serveral times during Basic if we wanted to get out by the RDCs.

Now, I do understand that draftees wouldn't have been able to get out of Basic so easily, since they didn't volunteer to be there in the first place. But the guy didn't even make it through training. It might have been because of an injury in training, but still. He has very little actual experience with the military. It would be like someone commenting on how it was to be a doctor, who only made it to the end of medical school. He may have some of the training, but he wouldn't have any of the experience.
 
if he has a DD214 stating he was honorably discharged, he is a veteran
period

why would the school invite anyone who was not a veteran to speak at such a function. if he was not a veteran, then the school actively participated in the FUBAR
 
OscarB63 said:
I agree, if you never made it out of training you are not a veteran. Just like if you flunk out of med/law school you are not a doctor/lawyer. :shrug:

Don't try to claim to be something you are not. Another thing that bugs me is those officers who will claim to be "prior enlisted" in order to get the Joes to think more highly of them. and then when you ask for details you find out that they were a ROTC cadet that went to basic training.

signing up for basic does not make one a veteran and attending basic does not make one prior enlisted.
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exactly correct on both counts.
 
justabubba said:
if he has a DD214 stating he was honorably discharged, he is a veteran
period
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not according to the DoD. there are specific criteria one must meet to be considered a veteran. washing out of basic training is not one of them. sorry charlie. there is no way you can spin it to make this guy a veteran.

why would the school invite anyone who was not a veteran to speak at such a function. if he was not a veteran, then the school actively participated in the FUBAR
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as I said, the guy probably misrepresented himself to the school. they have no way to verify his official status and probably took him at his word. don't blame the school because this guy is a lying douchebag
 
 
OscarB63 said:
not according to the DoD. there are specific criteria one must meet to be considered a veteran. washing out of basic training is not one of them. sorry charlie. there is no way you can spin it to make this guy a veteran.
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if he was not a veteran, then how is it he would have a dd214 showing honorable discharge?
would he not have been discharged - honorably - from the military service?
if that is not the case, show us a cite which documents that those who are not found veterans would be issued those described dd214s

as I said, the guy probably misrepresented himself to the school. they have no way to verify his official status and probably took him at his word. don't blame the school because this guy is a lying douchebag
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you don't like that the invited guest was critical of the military service he was compelled to enter. and now you insist he is a liar, despite having not one iota of evidence that he misrepresented himself or his situation
quit making **** up
 
 
OscarB63 said:
good info. mere possession of a DD214 does not make one a veteran. being kicked out of the military after two weeks of training does not a veteran make.
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you have made a firm statement. now prove it. show us why the possession of a dd214 showing honorable discharge from the military service is not adequate for one to be found a veteran
 
OscarB63 said:
good info. mere possession of a DD214 does not make one a veteran. being kicked out of the military after two weeks of training does not a veteran make.
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I believe one needs 2 years of service to gain "veteran status" regardless.... except I believe if you see combat or are disabled.
 
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justabubba said:
if he was not a veteran, then how is it he would have a dd214 showing honorable discharge?
would he not have been discharged - honorably - from the military service?
if that is not the case, show us a cite which documents that those who are not found veterans would be issued those described dd214s
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everyone who enters training gets a DD214 when they leave. it is what is written in it that matters. unless you are convicted of a UCMJ violation you will get "under honorable conditions" even if you wash out of training. In order to be considered a veteran you have to actually SERVE in the military. according to the DoD, attending training does not count as "service". It is as simple as that.

If you wash out of basic training you are neither a soldier nor a veteran, just as if you wash out of medical school you are not a doctor.


you don't like that the invited guest was critical of the military service he was compelled to enter. and now you insist he is a liar, despite having not one iota of evidence that he misrepresented himself or his situation
quit making **** up
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his own statement is evidence that he misrepresented himself. he said he washed out of training due to an injury and NEVER HAD TO SERVE. by his own admission, he is not a veteran and thus had no place speaking as a veteran at a veteran's day event.

he is entitled to his opinion and free to express it. he is not, however, free to claim a status he never earned in order to give more weight/credibility to his opinion.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I believe one needs 2 years of service to gain "veteran status" regardless.... except I believe if you see combat or are disabled.
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it just like medical school. before you can call yourself "doctor" you have to successfully complete med school. before you can call yourself "soldier", "sailor", "airman", marine" you have to successfully complete basic training.

I went to flight school for a day, until they found out my vision wasn't 20/20. Using bubba's logic, I guess I can claim to be an AF pilot. :shrug:
 
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