Veterans Administration Busted For Non Qualified Doctors Diagnosing TBI's

[Hawkeye10]

Let's talk about how Obama vastly increased the workload against the advise of the DC Establishment, without suitable increases in resources, in the face of a massive doctor shortage, with no effort to fix the dysfunction that has long existed even after he was informed of it (there is no evidence that he ever figured this out for himself).

Obama is not part of the problem, a major part?

**** that.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Let's talk about how Obama vastly increased the workload against the advise of the DC Establishment, without suitable increases in resources, in the face of a massive doctor shortage, with no effort to fix the dysfunction that has long existed even after he was informed of it (there is no evidence that he ever figured this out for himself).

Obama is not part of the problem, a major part?

**** that.

You sound like he had a choice. Of course he vastly increased the workload.
Disabled veterans were being stacked up in the halls like cord wood, thanks to the Iraq/AfPak Wars.
The Phoenix VA was BEGGING for expansion money AND staff money because cheap housing during the crash had sent tons of disabled vets to Phoenix in search of a respite, thus their caseload QUADRUPLED.
Guess what the Republicans did? Same thing they did with Benghazi, they CUT the funding and then they turned around and blamed everyone else but themselves for a record number of sick veterans in Phoenix DYING before they could even be seen.

That's because the Phoenix VA was SWAMPED.
What the F*CK are you supposed to do when there is a flood of disabled veterans fresh off a massive war?
Against the advice of the DC Establishment my rosy red ass, we're supposed to listen to the goddam VA staff who knows what they need and when they need it, not the "establishment" or some asshole congressman who couldn't give two sh!ts.

Just because you say it with passion doesn't mean sh!t pal, because you clearly don't KNOW SH!T about the issue.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Dont delude yourself, yes Washington moves slow, but 7 years as the boss has an impact, even in Washington.

What is he? A god? A king?

The VA doesn't need him pointing fingers and giving orders to function or improve. I've been to some of the most advanced mili-healthcare facilities (NICOE, etc)... didn't see Obama there telling everyone how to run their ship.

and if we can build facilities like the NICOE, we can improve everything else.

First step: clean out ALL THE ****.
The only way to do THAT is to hold people accountable when they **** up - no more excuses and no more skeletons in the closet.

 

[Hawkeye10]

What is he? A god? A king?

The VA doesn't need him pointing fingers and giving orders to function or improve. I've been to some of the most advanced mili-healthcare facilities (NICOE, etc)... didn't see Obama there telling everyone how to run their ship.

and if we can build facilities like the NICOE, we can improve everything else.

First step: clean out ALL THE ****.
The only way to do THAT is to hold people accountable when they **** up - no more excuses and no more skeletons in the closet.

Are you not listening? People DO NOT WANT TO WORK AT THE VA. Do you understand what that means if you manage the VA? Reforms must be made by changing systems, and then trying to get current employees to buy into the reform, not by taking out our frustrations on the hide of current employees.

This is management 101.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Are you not listening? People DO NOT WANT TO WORK AT THE VA. Do you understand what that means if you manage the VA? Reforms must be made by changing systems, and then trying to get current employees to buy into the reform, not by taking out our frustrations on the hide of current employees.

This is management 101.

Why are you trying to throw that out there AGAIN as if 'improving working conditions' and 'making the work environment more enticing for new employees' isn't part of renovating the system? I figured that was a given part of the entire problem.

So . . . what were you trying to say? what's your hang up?

You clearly want them to improve things - so on that we agree.
There's a laundry list of things that need improving - so on that we agree.
It'll be a complicated process but well worth it - on that we agree.
It'll take care, time, planning, and research - on that we agree.
It won't happen overnight - on that we agree.

So what's your problem here?

The only thing we're not agreeing on is WHO is responsible. To me - the POTUS is a meh fleck of an issue. He'll just take credit where it's not due. Congress and all sorts of other people are where the real decisions, research, and new-plan of improvement rest.

And now that's settled: The idea that there aren't enough 'qualified doctors to test TBI' is ridiculous... because ALL THE TIME, they can outsource patients to civilian doctors. It's really that simple. My husband has 10 doctors - 4 are civilian. Over the last 5 years he's gone to 5 states for healthcare and seen over 30 doctors, 8 of which were solely located at the NICOE in Maryland.

Which brings up one serious flaw in the VA system: REDUNDANCY. My husband did not need to be tested by more than 30 doctors in 5 states to diagnose him. Especially not after receiving a 1 month million dollar workover at the NICOE... oh but VA system in the other 4 states didn't want to accept the NICOE diagnosis. They just rejected it and wanted their own version of tests done.

So . . . you were saying? I could walk you through the hell that is the VA cluster**** if you'd like. Somewhere on this forum is, in fact, a very length multi-page research paper of my own on this very topic.

That unqualified doctors who should NOT be diagnosing TBI's is like 1% of the entire problem. But hey - better than nothing. Every tiny discovery and improvement is still progress I support.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Why are you trying to throw that out there AGAIN as if 'improving working conditions' and 'making the work environment more enticing for new employees' isn't part of renovating the system? I figured that was a given part of the entire problem.

So . . . what were you trying to say? what's your hang up?

You clearly want them to improve things - so on that we agree.
There's a laundry list of things that need improving - so on that we agree.
It'll be a complicated process but well worth it - on that we agree.
It'll take care, time, planning, and research - on that we agree.
It won't happen overnight - on that we agree.

So what's your problem here?

The only thing we're not agreeing on is WHO is responsible. To me - the POTUS is a meh fleck of an issue. He'll just take credit where it's not due. Congress and all sorts of other people are where the real decisions, research, and new-plan of improvement rest.

Excuse me? I have been very clear here. The problem is that you let Obama off the hook, when he is a big part of the problem. I am ****ing pissed at Obama for not giving two ****s about how well or not well government works, as he asked for more power for government. He could have saved the day at the VA, instead he did not one ****ing thing to head off disaster, to include admitting that there was a problem, as he set out to actually make the problem worse. I am a socialist for cripes sake, you should understand well why this pisses me off so......He either is colossally stupid or else he is a lying scumbag son of a bitch and if so then **** him.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Excuse me? I have been very clear here. The problem is that you let Obama off the hook, when he is a big part of the problem. I am ****ing pissed at Obama for not giving two ****s about how well or not well government works, as he asked for more power for government. He could have saved the day at the VA, instead he did not one ****ing thing to head off disaster, to include admitting that there was a problem, as he set out to actually make the problem worse. I am a socialist for cripes sake, you should understand well why this pisses me off so......He either is colossally stupid or else he is a lying scumbag son of a bitch and if so then **** him.

Disasters like Walter Reed didn't happen the moment Obama became president. The disaster that was Walter Reed, for example, came to light when BUSH was president. Do you not remember that? The NICOE unit was first created by the Department of Defense in 2007.

If you spend all your time blaming Obama you're letting yourself just be blind to the greater and more significant problem: DECADES OF NEGLECT AND POOR OVERALL MANAGEMENT TOP TO BOTTOM.

Now - enough of your ****. If you want to spend all your time trying to beat a dead horse, go ahead.

But I've been at this **** LONGER THAN OBAMA'S BEEN IN ****ING OFFICE . . . So, you were saying?

 

[Hawkeye10]

Disasters like Walter Reed didn't happen the moment Obama became president. The disaster that was Walter Reed, for example, came to light when BUSH was president. Do you not remember that? The NICOE unit was first created by the Department of Defense in 2007.

If you spend all your time blaming Obama you're letting yourself just be blind to the greater and more significant problem: DECADES OF NEGLECT AND POOR OVERALL MANAGEMENT TOP TO BOTTOM.

Now - enough of your ****. If you want to spend all your time trying to beat a dead horse, go ahead.

But I've been at this **** LONGER THAN OBAMA'S BEEN IN ****ING OFFICE . . . So, you were saying?

**** them all then, but dont let Obama off the hook, you betray the collective when you do. You have a duty to me to admit the truth. Your failure to do the right thing here must be notated.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

**** them all then, but dont let Obama off the hook.

:applaud

Now you get it!

Just don't forget - the President, whomever it is, is not the one in control of this ****. If you're looking to the POTUS for the answer, he won't have them because he doesn't have the brains or the influence.

[lol - though I wouldn't put it past Obama to try to Executive Order fix everything. "I hereby declare you broken... and now fixed." - 'cause he is a moron like that.]

 

[Hawkeye10]

:applaud

Now you get it!

Just don't forget - the President, whomever it is, is not the one in control of this ****. If you're looking to the POTUS for the answer, he won't have them because he doesn't have the brains or the influence.

[lol - though I wouldn't put it past Obama to try to Executive Order fix everything. "I hereby declare you broken... and now fixed." - 'cause he is a moron like that.]

I dont care that Trump knows little at the moment, because I dont expect POTUS to have the answers, I expect POTUS to hire the best people, listen to them, and from a wide range of opinions from very smart people who dont agree pick what looks to be the best option, and to do this better than the average bear. But lets be clear, when it comes to the functioning of the executive branch the buck stops at the desk of POTUS, no matter how dim and/or incompetent they are.

Note: Auntie made the above post before I fully edited it. I tend to write very fast/post/ then edit if I have time. My posts sometimes change a great deal in edit.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Two guys riding down the highway, speeding.
Cop pulls them over. After smelling liquor on the driver's breath, he pulls them out and ultimately searches their vehicle.
He finds cocaine under one of the seats.

Who's is it?
Doesn't matter. If they don't come clean in a believable way, they both risk being charged.

--

If a teacher walks in on another teacher molesting a student and fails to report the incident to the police, he can ultimately be found responsible for enabling child abuse to take place. (Sandusky).

--

See the point? Time and time again the law does not distinguish much - if at all - between 'actually having committed the crime' and 'enabling the crime to be committed'.

If you are A HOSPITAL you thereby employ doctors or at least take responsibility when you refer claimant patients TO a doctor. That's part of the whole kit and kaboodle.

YOU seem to want to say they're not responsible for any of this? That's not how it works. The VA doesn't get a walk just because 'they might have taken someone else's WORD for it' . . . THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO ****ING KNOW.

--

Having to deal with the VA ALL THE TIME (injured husband) and especially dealing with TBI issues all the time - I'm glad this came to light and I'm glad the floor is being swept when it comes to the VA and their inane bull****.

We're supposed to be one of the most advanced medical care system nations in the WORLD - and our military care is piss poor embarrassing. NO EXCUSES.

EXCUSES are exactly why it's such a **** mess!

Have you ever worked as an investigator? I have. In the Navy, I was an investigator, then the shipboard equivalent of a chief of police, and then I was the assistant (and sometimes acting) legal officer. It was my job, my DUTY to determine what had actually happened and why...and I took that duty very seriously, to make sure the bad guys were caught and punished...and to make sure that the innocent were not wrongfully convicted.

And THAT, ma'am, is why I posted the below statement a few comments back:

First off, do you really think that the people at the VA are going to get together and agree to claim that this or that doctor was a specialist in a certain area, when they already knew that he was not a specialist in that area? Or is it more likely that the doctor himself claimed to have that specialty, and the VA failed to verify it? Don't get me wrong - the VA is and should be still responsible...but it's flat wrong to accuse the VA of lying or falsifying information. Why is it wrong? Because "lying" and "falsifying information" requires that they KNEW that what they were saying was false...and I see no indication anywhere that this is the case.

Hold the VA responsible, absolutely! But don't accuse them of lying when you have zero proof that they deliberately - with full knowledge of what they were doing - misled the patients and their families. YES, the VA must be held responsible...but to accuse them of deliberate deception (as part of what would HAVE to be by definition a conspiracy) is not just wrong, but also illegal if the accusation causes unnecessary harm to those accused.

One last thing - you might be having a hard time with the VA, but it's wrong to ignore everything they do that is right...and they've certainly done right by me, as has TriCare. If you'll check, medical mistakes appear to be the third-leading cause of death in America...and the thing is, that total includes ALL health care - the military health care community...and the FAR larger civilian health care community. In other words, it's not a government or a civilian thing - it's a HUMAN thing. You would do well to understand that.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Have you ever worked as an investigator? I have. In the Navy, I was an investigator, then the shipboard equivalent of a chief of police, and then I was the assistant (and sometimes acting) legal officer. It was my job, my DUTY to determine what had actually happened and why...and I took that duty very seriously, to make sure the bad guys were caught and punished...and to make sure that the innocent were not wrongfully convicted.

And THAT, ma'am, is why I posted the below statement a few comments back:

First off, do you really think that the people at the VA are going to get together and agree to claim that this or that doctor was a specialist in a certain area, when they already knew that he was not a specialist in that area? Or is it more likely that the doctor himself claimed to have that specialty, and the VA failed to verify it? Don't get me wrong - the VA is and should be still responsible...but it's flat wrong to accuse the VA of lying or falsifying information. Why is it wrong? Because "lying" and "falsifying information" requires that they KNEW that what they were saying was false...and I see no indication anywhere that this is the case.

Hold the VA responsible, absolutely! But don't accuse them of lying when you have zero proof that they deliberately - with full knowledge of what they were doing - misled the patients and their families. YES, the VA must be held responsible...but to accuse them of deliberate deception (as part of what would HAVE to be by definition a conspiracy) is not just wrong, but also illegal if the accusation causes unnecessary harm to those accused.

One last thing - you might be having a hard time with the VA, but it's wrong to ignore everything they do that is right...and they've certainly done right by me, as has TriCare. If you'll check, medical mistakes appear to be the third-leading cause of death in America...and the thing is, that total includes ALL health care - the military health care community...and the FAR larger civilian health care community. In other words, it's not a government or a civilian thing - it's a HUMAN thing. You would do well to understand that.

If you and I agree that there's wrong going on here and it needs to be improved and address.. then what are you trying to debate, here?

I say: no excuses.
And you say . . . ? Certainly you're not saying 'yes - excuses' (of course you're not)

I don't get your actual issue, here.

 

[jaeger19]

I have a healthcare business that contracts with the VA. We hate dealing with the VA. the only reason that we even have a contract with them is because without it, Vets would have to travel 60-100 miles to get care.

In their effort to save money.. they end up costing more taxpayer money.. and getting worse care for Vets.

Shameful.

 

[Chomsky]

As a veteran rated with 80% disability, I have an opinion about the VA. I dont need the VA. I have 2 other forms of insurance. I use the VA services if fr no other reason than to stay connected to the VA because I never know what tomorrow is going to bring. I have an exceptional primary care provider at the VA as well as a private primary care provider. I only see my VA PC once a year for annual checkups and updates. Ive had surgery twice at the VA. Never again.

OK...this may not be a popular position with other vets...but you know...I volunteered to serve. I have deployed 7 times into combat zones. I did my job. I chose my job. I am grateful for the opportunities my service earned. I think everyone deserves the medical care they pay for or in the case of veterans, earned/sacrificed for. And in many ways the VA IS a great medical care resource. I see the value in having a veteran specific VA. I dont think because of my service I deserve anything special...just what I earned. The VA was not meant as a service to cover ALL vets. It was meant as a service to cover those disabled vets with special needs.

MOST veterans do not need the VA. MOST veterans do not have service connected disabilities. MOST veterans that retire have Tricare and Tricare provides good medical insurance. I really believe that the biggest problem the VA system faces is that it is overburdened by services NOT originally intended. Some of that is from service members. Some of it is systemic. Some of it is political. Heck...I think the BIGGEST problem in the VA system began when they started the concurrent disability pay system.

Not sure if I am answering your question. The VA is a good system...its just overwhelmed/overburdened.

I say I agree.

I am retired military so I can use the VA. But I don't because I can afford better alternatives. Not all veterans can.

A belated thank you for these responses.

Yeah, these were the answers I was looking for.

For all the noise in the media and posturing among the political class, it seems just about every vet I've ever talked to is pretty dayem happy to have the VA as a resource.

I suspect most vets would be easier & best served by private providers under VA insurance for their general medical needs, but I think there is a place for the VA for those with combat specific needs, including mental health.

But that's from me on the outside looking in ...

 

[VanceMack]

A belated thank you for these responses.

Yeah, these were the answers I was looking for.

For all the noise in the media and posturing among the political class, it seems just about every vet I've ever talked to is pretty dayem happy to have the VA as a resource.

I suspect most vets would be easier & best served by private providers under VA insurance for their general medical needs, but I think there is a place for the VA for those with combat specific needs, including mental health.

But that's from me on the outside looking in ...

You do have to get though...its not just the medical care that the VA is covering and that is feeding the beast. The VA also provides education benefits, career retraining, and the biggie...concurrent disability pay.

EDIT...added: Just for clarification. When i first joined we knew we would get paid crappy wages. The military used to (and I assume still does) send out a sheet annually that showed what you REALLY were getting paid as opposed to what you were actually getting paid. In exchange for the low pay you were getting the tax free benefit of the commissary and Exchange but also...if you put in your 20 you were getting paid insurance for you and your spouse for life and for your kids til they were 18 or 26 depending on if they attended college. You were also paying for a retirement package that would pay you half your salary of your high three career progression for the rest of your life. So...when you looked at that sheet and knew you were only getting paid 26,000 a year, it was supposed to lesson the sting that if you served all 20 your actual annual pay was more like 70,000. Those were true 'entitlements', because if you stayed, you got paid.

If you became disabled...it USED to be that of the 100% of your retirement check, a percentage equal to your disability rating was paid by the VA and it was now tax free. So...if you were 50% disabled you still got your 100% but 50 came from DFAS and 50% came from the VA. Then...a while back, a bunch of vet groups lobbied because they felt it was unfair that your pay was cut at all and that you should get not only your 100% retirement but an ADDITIONAL 50% paid by the VA...tax free.

Think there is a financial incentive to be 'disabled' now?

 

[Chomsky]

You do have to get though...its not just the medical care that the VA is covering and that is feeding the beast. The VA also provides education benefits, career retraining, and the biggie...concurrent disability pay.

EDIT...added: Just for clarification. When i first joined we knew we would get paid crappy wages. The military used to (and I assume still does) send out a sheet annually that showed what you REALLY were getting paid as opposed to what you were actually getting paid. In exchange for the low pay you were getting the tax free benefit of the commissary and Exchange but also...if you put in your 20 you were getting paid insurance for you and your spouse for life and for your kids til they were 18 or 26 depending on if they attended college. You were also paying for a retirement package that would pay you half your salary of your high three career progression for the rest of your life. So...when you looked at that sheet and knew you were only getting paid 26,000 a year, it was supposed to lesson the sting that if you served all 20 your actual annual pay was more like 70,000. Those were true 'entitlements', because if you stayed, you got paid.

If you became disabled...it USED to be that of the 100% of your retirement check, a percentage equal to your disability rating was paid by the VA and it was now tax free. So...if you were 50% disabled you still got your 100% but 50 came from DFAS and 50% came from the VA. Then...a while back, a bunch of vet groups lobbied because they felt it was unfair that your pay was cut at all and that you should get not only your 100% retirement but an ADDITIONAL 50% paid by the VA...tax free.

Think there is a financial incentive to be 'disabled' now?

Exactly.

And let's not forget Uncle takes care of you for your time in! No rent, no food expenses, no transportation requirements, no utilities, etc etc. A lot of young guys from marginal neighborhoods and poor financial or familial situations hopped on to get started on the right track to adulthood!

I've worked with several such individuals, and they thank Uncle Sam for getting them going. Hell during 'Nam in my city it was common enough for guys that were young and found themselves facing first-time nonviolent charges (ex: car theft), to cut a deal to serve in exchange for dropping charges. I know of two guys in particular, one came out straight and I have no idea of the other.

I'm not saying the service should be a reform school, but in my neighborhood of many vets (including my father), a stint in the service was seen as a good way to make a straight-shooting man out of a boy regardless of whether he was at risk or not! :thumbs:

 

[VanceMack]

Exactly.

And let's not forget Uncle takes care of you for your time in! No rent, no food expenses, no transportation requirements, no utilities, etc etc. A lot of young guys from marginal neighborhoods and poor financial or familial situations hopped on to get started on the right track to adulthood!

I've worked with several such individuals, and they thank Uncle Sam for getting them going. Hell during 'Nam in my city it was common enough for guys that were young and found themselves facing first-time nonviolent charges (ex: car theft), to cut a deal to serve in exchange for dropping charges. I know of two guys in particular, one came out straight and I have no idea of the other.

I'm not saying the service should be a reform school, but in my neighborhood of many vets (including my father), a stint in the service was seen as a good way to make a straight-shooting man out of a boy regardless of whether he was at risk or not! :thumbs:

Thats all part of the deal. You take greatly reduced pay, serve at your countries whim, dont get paid overtime...and the government makes money because its cheaper to house you in a one room dorm with common areas than to pay everyone a salary commensurate to the job. No complaints...its give and take but its all by choice.