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Venezuelans Ransack Stores as Hunger Grips the Nation

Rogue Valley

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Venezuelans Ransack Stores as Hunger Grips the Nation

It's getting really, really bad.


VENEZ_FOOD_RIOTS_8_2006s_620_413_70.JPG
 

Glen Contrarian

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Yay socialism.

That's not socialism.
That's just you - and everyone who thinks like you - wanting to believe that it is.

Just because a nation includes the name "socialist" doesn't mean that it is, any more than the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy or a republic. Look at communism - real communism (as described by Marx and Engels) has never been implemented...it's always gone only so far as tyranny...and that's it. Having a truly communist government is every bit as unworkable, every bit as incompatible with human nature on the macro scale, as its polar opposite of libertarianism.

But socialism...that's different. ALL the first-world democracies are to significant degrees socialized...including America. Not only that, but we've BEEN socialized for over half a century. Did the West implode? Did our economies go down the toilet? No. We've only gotten better...

...which means we're doing something right. You can gripe and complain about socialism all you want, but for the past half century you've been LIVING in a socialized nation (yes, for the entirety of the Reagan presidency, too - and he even made it more socialized). America - like all other first-world democracies - is to a significant degree a socialized democracy, one in which socialist principles touch every facet of our lives. You don't have to like it...but that, sir, is reality.
 

countryboy

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Lol, and the socialist apologists come out of the woodwork.
 

Patrickt

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That's not socialism.
That's just you - and everyone who thinks like you - wanting to believe that it is.

Just because a nation includes the name "socialist" doesn't mean that it is, any more than the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy or a republic. Look at communism - real communism (as described by Marx and Engels) has never been implemented...it's always gone only so far as tyranny...and that's it. Having a truly communist government is every bit as unworkable, every bit as incompatible with human nature on the macro scale, as its polar opposite of libertarianism.

But socialism...that's different. ALL the first-world democracies are to significant degrees socialized...including America. Not only that, but we've BEEN socialized for over half a century. Did the West implode? Did our economies go down the toilet? No. We've only gotten better...

...which means we're doing something right. You can gripe and complain about socialism all you want, but for the past half century you've been LIVING in a socialized nation (yes, for the entirety of the Reagan presidency, too - and he even made it more socialized). America - like all other first-world democracies - is to a significant degree a socialized democracy, one in which socialist principles touch every facet of our lives. You don't have to like it...but that, sir, is reality.

I realize what you're saying. It's rather like the Democrat Party pretending to support democracy at any level. But, Hugo Chavez claimed to be a socialist and President Obama supported them and the government in Venezuela took over businesses and destroyed the economy. Sure seems like socialism.

I did like the part about communism going only so far as tyranny. When tyranny is a step in the process it will never go any further. Fifty years ago, Fidel Castro said he was temporary and would know when it was time to step down and have open elections. He didn't step down but his aging brothers have displaced him. Tyrants never voluntarily step down.
 

countryboy

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You support Trump's fascist authoritarianism over Bernie's libertarian socialism?

I sure as hell don't support Bern. I'm not a Trump supporter either, but I don't think you know what fascism is. Bernie and Hitlery are closer to the mark than Trump.
 

Glen Contrarian

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I sure as hell don't support Bern. I'm not a Trump supporter either, but I don't think you know what fascism is. Bernie and Hitlery are closer to the mark than Trump.

Lemme see here - you claim the guy who can't seem to go a week without telling outrageous and demonstrably false lies, who bans from his campaign any news organization who prints stuff he doesn't like, who has a documented history of not just stiffing his clients but also stiffing the lawyers who represented him in the lawsuits those clients brought, who encourages violence by his supporters...

...you're somehow claiming that he's somehow "less fascist" than Hillary or Trump?

Dude. You need to go educate yourself. That, and you need to be able to pull your head out of the right-wing echo chamber, to actually pay attention to the other side of the story. Remember, I was once like you...but I decided to check both sides of the story...and found out just how badly one needs to be cynical of ALL sides, and not just the side that one doesn't like.
 

Glen Contrarian

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I realize what you're saying. It's rather like the Democrat Party pretending to support democracy at any level. But, Hugo Chavez claimed to be a socialist and President Obama supported them and the government in Venezuela took over businesses and destroyed the economy. Sure seems like socialism.

I did like the part about communism going only so far as tyranny. When tyranny is a step in the process it will never go any further. Fifty years ago, Fidel Castro said he was temporary and would know when it was time to step down and have open elections. He didn't step down but his aging brothers have displaced him. Tyrants never voluntarily step down.

Communism is the polar opposite of libertarianism...and both are incompatible with the human nature of the masses. Oh, there will be some for whom those political models would work, but for whole populations? No.

And when it comes to "Obama supporting Chavez", there's a bit more to the story:

Despite commitments from U.S. President Barack Obama early in his presidency that the era of U.S. interference in Latin America was over, the policy of his government remains the same as it was during the Bush years. To this day the U.S. continues to finance the political opposition in Venezuela to the tune of millions of U.S. dollars a year, with a high-ranking official from the National Endowment for Democracy traveling to Venezuela in March 2015 to meet with politicians from the right-wing opposition.

On March 9, 2015 Obama issued an Executive Order that declared Venezuela a threat to U.S. national security, language his administration justified as a formality required to impose sanctions.


As I pointed out in the previous post, just because someone claims to be a socialist doesn't mean that he or she is one - I guess you could call such a person a "SINO", just as a lot of Republicans were referred to as "RINO's" in the past couple elections.

And one last thing - if "socialism" was what destroyed the Venezuelan economy, then explain why it is that ALL first-world democracies (including America) are socialized to a significant extent (and yes, America is significantly socialized) and ALL first-world democracies have been socialized democracies for over half a century...yet when it comes to standards of living and personal freedoms, why is it we're still on top? If socialism were SO bad, then how could EVERY first-world democracy remain among the best places to live in the world even after more than a half century?

In other words, the socialism-is-evil-and-terrible-for-the-economy dogma...is arguing against the real-world results. You've got to be able to explain why ALL first-world democracies are still on top even after more than half century of socialism being part and parcel of their economies.
 

natsb

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That's not socialism.
That's just you - and everyone who thinks like you - wanting to believe that it is.

Just because a nation includes the name "socialist" doesn't mean that it is, any more than the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy or a republic. Look at communism - real communism (as described by Marx and Engels) has never been implemented...it's always gone only so far as tyranny...and that's it. Having a truly communist government is every bit as unworkable, every bit as incompatible with human nature on the macro scale, as its polar opposite of libertarianism.

But socialism...that's different. ALL the first-world democracies are to significant degrees socialized...including America. Not only that, but we've BEEN socialized for over half a century. Did the West implode? Did our economies go down the toilet? No. We've only gotten better...

...which means we're doing something right. You can gripe and complain about socialism all you want, but for the past half century you've been LIVING in a socialized nation (yes, for the entirety of the Reagan presidency, too - and he even made it more socialized). America - like all other first-world democracies - is to a significant degree a socialized democracy, one in which socialist principles touch every facet of our lives. You don't have to like it...but that, sir, is reality.

No, that is socialism. Its just you - and everyone who thinks like you - wanting to believe that it isn't. There, I fixed it for you.

It only took three post for the predictable post to appear. This should be a drinking game. While always funny to watch the agonizing twisting of logic, it is getting a little long in the tooth. We always hear variations of the same stories. Either the failed country just didn't do it right, or socialism is redefined to mean something else.

Yes, it is socialism, and socialism always fails when the OPM runs out. It just takes longer in some countries than others.
 

Glen Contrarian

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No, that is socialism. Its just you - and everyone who thinks like you - wanting to believe that it isn't. There, I fixed it for you.

It only took three post for the predictable post to appear. This should be a drinking game. While always funny to watch the agonizing twisting of logic, it is getting a little long in the tooth. We always hear variations of the same stories. Either the failed country just didn't do it right, or socialism is redefined to mean something else.

Yes, it is socialism, and socialism always fails when the OPM runs out. It just takes longer in some countries than others.

If socialism's so terrible, then WHY is it that ALL first-world democracies (including America) are significantly socialized and have been for over a half century...yet we're all still on top when it comes to living standards and personal freedoms?

If socialism's so doggone terrible, then you've GOT to explain why even after more than a half century, the West hasn't wound up in the economic dustbin of history...but instead has remained on top.

WHY, guy? WHY are the real-world results 180-out from what you claim they oughta be? Explain why it is that the real-world results are NOT what conservative dogma says shoulda/woulda/oughta happen!
 

Wiggen

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thanks a lot, Obama! (Just saving time and effort for our right wing friends).
 

Patrickt

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Communism is the polar opposite of libertarianism...and both are incompatible with the human nature of the masses. Oh, there will be some for whom those political models would work, but for whole populations? No.

And when it comes to "Obama supporting Chavez", there's a bit more to the story:

Despite commitments from U.S. President Barack Obama early in his presidency that the era of U.S. interference in Latin America was over, the policy of his government remains the same as it was during the Bush years. To this day the U.S. continues to finance the political opposition in Venezuela to the tune of millions of U.S. dollars a year, with a high-ranking official from the National Endowment for Democracy traveling to Venezuela in March 2015 to meet with politicians from the right-wing opposition.

On March 9, 2015 Obama issued an Executive Order that declared Venezuela a threat to U.S. national security, language his administration justified as a formality required to impose sanctions.


As I pointed out in the previous post, just because someone claims to be a socialist doesn't mean that he or she is one - I guess you could call such a person a "SINO", just as a lot of Republicans were referred to as "RINO's" in the past couple elections.

And one last thing - if "socialism" was what destroyed the Venezuelan economy, then explain why it is that ALL first-world democracies (including America) are socialized to a significant extent (and yes, America is significantly socialized) and ALL first-world democracies have been socialized democracies for over half a century...yet when it comes to standards of living and personal freedoms, why is it we're still on top? If socialism were SO bad, then how could EVERY first-world democracy remain among the best places to live in the world even after more than a half century?

In other words, the socialism-is-evil-and-terrible-for-the-economy dogma...is arguing against the real-world results. You've got to be able to explain why ALL first-world democracies are still on top even after more than half century of socialism being part and parcel of their economies.

Limited socialism works as long as the capitalist activity can support it. Eventually, it folds. As for Obama/Hugo Chavez, there is more to the story. As soon as Honduras ousted President Zelaya, a Chavez surrogate, President Obama moved to force Honduras to let him back in as President.
 

Roadvirus

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Ah Socialism! Ain't it great?
 

natsb

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If socialism's so terrible, then WHY is it that ALL first-world democracies (including America) are significantly socialized and have been for over a half century...yet we're all still on top when it comes to living standards and personal freedoms?

If socialism's so doggone terrible, then you've GOT to explain why even after more than a half century, the West hasn't wound up in the economic dustbin of history...but instead has remained on top.

WHY, guy? WHY are the real-world results 180-out from what you claim they oughta be? Explain why it is that the real-world results are NOT what conservative dogma says shoulda/woulda/oughta happen!

Perhaps doing a little homework would save you from post like that. Socialism is always followed by collapse. Collapse is always followed by capitalism. Capitalism is always followed by socialism. Rinse and repeat. Socialisms appeal is easy. At some point in any democracy the people discover they can vote themselves a portion of other people's wealth. Santa Clause always wins elections.

Mayhap, you just haven't been paying attention. The EU is in serious trouble. Many of the States have already run out of OPM (Greece, Spain, etc), and the others are under stress of collapse trying to prop them up. In the "not paying attention" category, I guess you haven't noticed Great Britain having a vote to see if they can separate.. The oil fields in the socialist utopias of northern Europe are drying up. When the oil is gone, their socialism will follow; just like in Venezuela.

Can't be serious about everything being peachy in the USA. Our economy, freedoms, and living standards have been in a serious slide for the last fifty years. Just when we started the socialism experiment, hmmm... just a coincidence I suppose.
 

Glen Contrarian

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Perhaps doing a little homework would save you from post like that. Socialism is always followed by collapse. Collapse is always followed by capitalism. Capitalism is always followed by socialism. Rinse and repeat. Socialisms appeal is easy. At some point in any democracy the people discover they can vote themselves a portion of other people's wealth. Santa Clause always wins elections.

Mayhap, you just haven't been paying attention. The EU is in serious trouble. Many of the States have already run out of OPM (Greece, Spain, etc), and the others are under stress of collapse trying to prop them up. In the "not paying attention" category, I guess you haven't noticed Great Britain having a vote to see if they can separate.. The oil fields in the socialist utopias of northern Europe are drying up. When the oil is gone, their socialism will follow; just like in Venezuela.

Can't be serious about everything being peachy in the USA. Our economy, freedoms, and living standards have been in a serious slide for the last fifty years. Just when we started the socialism experiment, hmmm... just a coincidence I suppose.

Are you familiar with the phrase, "Familiarity breeds contempt"? I'll explain why towards the bottom.

Know what? I just got back from Italy and Greece a couple weeks ago...and while they are still very much in a recession (there's a t-shirt I saw that said, "Keep Calm and F**k the Crisis") - the stores are closed at about the same rate ours were during the Great Recession...but at the same time, they weren't doing that badly, either. In Athens' harbor were several super yachts, and one particularly large one (larger than one of our destroyers) that (allegedly) belonged to the king of Qatar.

BUT one thing that was very obvious was that NO, Greece is not even close to being a third-world nation. I know this because I've lived in and still have a house in a third-world nation (Philippines), and I know first-hand the difference between a third-world and a first-world nation...and Greece ain't a third-world nation - far from it!

When it comes to Spain, if you'll check, they are on the rebound - especially given that (according to reports several weeks ago) the tourists are avoiding the Middle East and northern Africa like the plague, and are instead flocking to Spain (Barcelona in particular).

So why did I remind you that "Familiarity breeds contempt"? Because the more a person is familiar with something, the more that person knows about that thing, the less that person respects that thing...the less that person realizes how special that thing really is. I remind you of this because you apparently don't realize just how well off America and the rest of the first-world nations really are when compared to the third-world nations.

Oh, and one more thing - there's one thing you'll find out when you live in a third-world democracy: there's not just an almost complete lack of a social safety net, but they're almost libertarian in nature. There's very little of what you seem to believe is socialism (and no, Venezuela isn't even close to being a socialist nation). The golden rule applies - you got the gold, you make the rules. You can do pretty much what you want as long as you can afford it. But when you live there for a while, you start realizing just how much you took for granted living in America...and how special America is...and how special all other first-world democracies are.
 

Glen Contrarian

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Limited socialism works as long as the capitalist activity can support it. Eventually, it folds. As for Obama/Hugo Chavez, there is more to the story. As soon as Honduras ousted President Zelaya, a Chavez surrogate, President Obama moved to force Honduras to let him back in as President.

It's been doing pretty doggone good for the first-world democracies for over a half century. Germany - which is a LOT more socialized than we are - has a much lower debt-to-GDP ratio, and they normally run a budget surplus.

In other words, it can be done - all that's required is the courage to do it, to get past the frankly irrational fear that grips America's right wing that seems to think that America's unable to do something when other first-world democracies are doing it and making it work very well indeed.
 

Abbazorkzog

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I sure as hell don't support Bern. I'm not a Trump supporter either, but I don't think you know what fascism is. Bernie and Hitlery are closer to the mark than Trump.

Hitlery maybe (she is a right-winger after all). But Fascism wasn't left- or right-wing. You may be thinking of Nazism which was indeed right-wing.
 

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If socialism's so terrible, then WHY is it that ALL first-world democracies (including America) are significantly socialized and have been for over a half century...yet we're all still on top when it comes to living standards and personal freedoms?

If socialism's so doggone terrible, then you've GOT to explain why even after more than a half century, the West hasn't wound up in the economic dustbin of history...but instead has remained on top.

Because you are confusing a "mixed economy" with Socialism. The US is neither a socialist system or a pure free market system. Having elements which are as you say "socialized" is not socialism---at least not the kind folks like Bernie Sanders ... and case in point, the late Hugo Chavez have advocated.
 

countryboy

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Hitlery maybe (she is a right-winger after all). But Fascism wasn't left- or right-wing. You may be thinking of Nazism which was indeed right-wing.

Good grief, how far to the left would one need to be to consider Hitlery a "right-winger"? :doh

I know the difference between fascism and national socialism. National socialism may be considered "right wing" by leftist pseudo-intellectuals, but it bears absolutely no resemblance to American conservatism. Do libs actually believe they fool anyone with these mischaracterizations?
 

Abbazorkzog

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Good grief, how far to the left would one need to be to consider Hitlery a "right-winger"? :doh

I know the difference between fascism and national socialism. National socialism may be considered "right wing" by leftist pseudo-intellectuals, but it bears absolutely no resemblance to American conservatism. Do libs actually believe they fool anyone with these mischaracterizations?

Liberalism isn't inherently left-wing and Conservatism isn't inherently right-wing. The USSR was very Conservative.

Hillary is merely a right-wing liberal.
 
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