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Venezuelan Socialism Enters Its Death Squad Phase

LowDown

LowDown

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New York Times: CARACAS, Venezuela — The agents barged into the home of Yonaiker Ordóñez, 18, on Sunday morning as he slept. Dressed in helmets and carrying rifles, the men grabbed the teenager and forced him to another room without explaining why they came, his family said.

“They took him to the area behind and killed him there,” said his sister, Yengly González.

The operation resembled one of the many police raids against the gangs that terrorize Venezuela’s poor neighborhoods. But Mr. Ordóñez’s only crime, his family said, was that he attended a protest against the government days before.
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Maduro has formed a special force of secret police to rub out political opponents. So far they have been killing poor people who have little means to defend themselves or fight back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Sean Penn had no comment.
 
One wonders if the Democratic Socialists of America are going to retract their support for Maduro.

https://www.dsausa.org/statements/dsa-statement-on-us-intervention-in-venezuela/

Though there have been reports of repression on the part of the Venezuelan security forces (including the brief arrest of Guaidó himself outside Caracas) and property damage on the part of opposition protesters (including the arson of an important community center in Caracas), significant confrontations between government and opposition supporters have yet to materialize. Nor has there been any indication that top military leaders are planning to break with Maduro. Nonetheless, the situation remains extremely tense. Any small political miscalculation could provoke serious violence and chaos in the country.

The role of the United States government in this unfolding situation over the last two weeks has been substantial and extremely counterproductive. Its actions have served only to deepen political divisions and decrease the likelihood of a peaceful solution to the crisis. President Trump and Vice President Pence have both expressed their full support for the unelected Guaidó as acting President, and are working tirelessly to organize other nations to do the same. Further, Trump has stated that he is contemplating a military intervention in Venezuela, and the US National Security Council has indicated that it is strongly considering an embargo on Venezuelan oil imports to the United States. These actions would each have catastrophic consequences for the already suffering Venezuelan people. The US government is clearly more interested in using Venezuela as a boogeyman to show the dangers of socialism than in playing a constructive role in resolving the crisis. Unfortunately the consequences of this rhetorical posturing are all too real for the Venezuelan people.
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Solidarity with the people of Venezuela! Solidarity with the Bolivarian Revolution!
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For the good of Venezuelans and the future of their country, Maduro must go. Recognizing Guaido as interim president and freezing assets/sanctions should be the limit of our involvement. No U.S. troops.
 
Socialism: You can vote your way into it, but you have to shoot your way out of it.
 
Ah yes, another kick Venezuela American conservative circle jerk, which wouldn’t a problem.

Venezuela’s government deserves to be kicked, but what happened is extremely complex and some of it goes back further than Chavez.

But it’s used as a one size fits all bludgeon to say that:

“yah see libs! You want stuff like UHC, this is what happens!”
 
jmotivator said:
Ah, another "B-b-but that's not real socialism!" poster. :roll:
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Not at all. There are forms of socialism in Sweden, the US, Mexico, etc., as well as the attempts in Venezuela. Real socialism, like real capitalism, doesn't exist. At times, systems leaning one way or the other have used repression to maintain themselves. Note the anti-socialist decades of deaths squads in Guatemala, the censorship of the press in revolutionary Nicaragua, the repression in Cuba, the dropping of leftist dissidents from helicopters in Argentina.
 
Nickyjo said:
Not at all. There are forms of socialism in Sweden, the US, Mexico, etc., as well as the attempts in Venezuela. Real socialism, like real capitalism, doesn't exist. At times, systems leaning one way or the other have used repression to maintain themselves. Note the anti-socialist decades of deaths squads in Guatemala, the censorship of the press in revolutionary Nicaragua, the repression in Cuba, the dropping of leftist dissidents from helicopters in Argentina.
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Maybe read what I said sometime rather than punching at straw men.

Also... bonus points for this:

jmotivator said:
Ah, another "B-b-but that's not real socialism!" poster. :roll:
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Nickyjo said:
Not at all. There are forms of socialism in Sweden, the US, Mexico, etc., as well as the attempts in Venezuela. Real socialism, like real capitalism, doesn't exist. At times, systems leaning one way or the other have used repression to maintain themselves. Note the anti-socialist decades of deaths squads in Guatemala, the censorship of the press in revolutionary Nicaragua, the repression in Cuba, the dropping of leftist dissidents from helicopters in Argentina.
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Soooo... not at all like "B-b-but that's not real socialism!" ... what you meant to say was that it's not like real socialism? :roll:
 
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jmotivator said:
Maybe read what I said sometime rather than punching at straw men.

Also... bonus points for this:






Soooo... not at all like "B-b-but that's not real socialism!" ... what you meant to say was that it's not like real socialism? :roll:
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Don't understand. I was responding to the need to have to shoot your way out of socialism notion. Not true. Though I will admit that socialist policies are hard to undo once established, from Social Security to the ACA. I suspect that when the Maduro regime hopefully is no more, many of its "socialistic" characteristics will be retained by what government follows.
 
Nickyjo said:
Don't understand. I was responding to the need to have to shoot your way out of socialism notion. Not true. Though I will admit that socialist policies are hard to undo once established, from Social Security to the ACA. I suspect that when the Maduro regime hopefully is no more, many of its "socialistic" characteristics will be retained by what government follows.
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You were responding to the statement about shooting your way out of socialism with 1) the argument that there is no socialism and 2) examples of existing pseudo socialist programs, not a examples of peaceful exits from Socialism.

The world is filled with examples of attempts at socialism that all end in death and disaster.

Many people have voted in Socialist states, but when it falls apart they find they can't vote their way back out again. The exit tends to require bullets. That is the point.

Now, it you wanted to attack the statement you could argue that there are plenty of cases where people shot their way into Socialism, too... but my statement wasn't an absolute on that count.
 
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jmotivator said:
You were responding to the statement about shooting your way out of socialism with 1) the argument that there is no socialism and 2) examples of existing pseudo socialist programs, not a examples of peaceful exits from Socialism.

The world is filled with examples of attempts at socialism that all end in death and disaster.

Many people have voted in Socialist states, but when it falls apart they find they can't vote their way back out again. The exit tends to require bullets. That is the point.

Now, it you wanted to attack the statement you could argue that there are plenty of cases where people shot their way into Socialism, too... but my statement wasn't an absolute on that count.
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I suppose one has to define socialism to get somewhere in this back and forth. But I repeat that the greater factor keeping socialist-like programs or governments together whether in Sweden or Venezuela is people’s enjoyment of their benefits. I doubt those protesting Maduro are complaining about his socialist programs.
 
Nickyjo said:
I suppose one has to define socialism to get somewhere in this back and forth. But I repeat that the greater factor keeping socialist-like programs or governments together whether in Sweden or Venezuela is people’s enjoyment of their benefits. I doubt those protesting Maduro are complaining about his socialist programs.
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Sure, people enjoy the benefits, untilk the government runs out of money, then they decide to do something else and the government doesn't reliquish control... and the shooting starts.

The reason "socialism" works in Scandinavian countries is that it isn't Socialism. The social programs and limited industries are fed by a capitalist economy that generates the the required capital to feed the social projects.

A Socialist state lacks the capitalist economy to feed it... eventually.

SocvCap.jpg
 
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LowDown said:
Maduro has formed a special force of secret police to rub out political opponents. So far they have been killing poor people who have little means to defend themselves or fight back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Sean Penn had no comment.
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Were the Nicaraguan death squads that the U.S. supported a result of capitalism?

Whether a country is considered more capitalist or socialist has nothing to do with the possibility of death squads. Agusto Pinochet was a right-wing despot who was famous for his death squads.

Dozens of African countries have capitalist dictators who use death squads.

I hope one day your thinking matures a bit beyond this black and white simplistic analysis.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
Were the Nicaraguan death squads that the U.S. supported a result of capitalism?

Whether a country is considered more capitalist or socialist has nothing to do with the possibility of death squads. Agusto Pinochet was a right-wing despot who was famous for his death squads.

Dozens of African countries have capitalist dictators who use death squads.

I hope one day your thinking matures a bit beyond this black and white simplistic analysis.
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Whataboutism.
 
jmotivator said:
The reason "socialism" works in Scandinavian countries is that it isn't Socialism.
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When Democrats try to copy the Scandinavian model you call it socialism. When Democrats point to Scandinavia as successful socialism you say it's not socialism.

So let me ask you plainly. Should Democrats who want to copy from various Scandinavian countries socialists?
 
apdst said:
Whataboutism.
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Nope. Whataboutism is when you point to some other negative event or person in an attempt to excuse some current issue.

I pointed out that his attempt to associate death squads with socialism isn't rational because there are and have been plenty of capitalist death squads. That's not whataboutism. That's simply demonstrating that a claimed correlation is false.
 
jmotivator said:
Sure, people enjoy the benefits, untilk the government runs out of money, then they decide to do something else and the government doesn't reliquish control... and the shooting starts.

The reason "socialism" works in Scandinavian countries is that it isn't Socialism. The social programs and limited industries are fed by a capitalist economy that generates the the required capital to feed the social projects.

A Socialist state lacks the capitalist economy to feed it... eventually.

View attachment 67249338
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Was private business eliminated in Venezuela under Maduro and Chavez? Didn’t know that. I assumed they just mismanaged things horribly.
 
Nickyjo said:
I suppose one has to define socialism to get somewhere in this back and forth. But I repeat that the greater factor keeping socialist-like programs or governments together whether in Sweden or Venezuela is people’s enjoyment of their benefits. I doubt those protesting Maduro are complaining about his socialist programs.
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Sweden has privatized social security. I bet you would never go for that in The United States.
 
Nickyjo said:
I suppose one has to define socialism to get somewhere in this back and forth. But I repeat that the greater factor keeping socialist-like programs or governments together whether in Sweden or Venezuela is people’s enjoyment of their benefits. I doubt those protesting Maduro are complaining about his socialist programs.
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Observers and economists have stated that the crisis is not the result of a conflict or natural disaster but the consequences of*populist*policies that began under the Chávez administration's*Bolivarian Revolution,[11][12][13][14][15][16]*with the*Brookings Institution*stating that "Venezuela has really become the poster child for how the combination of corruption, economic mismanagement, and undemocratic governance can lead to widespread suffering".[17]
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-From Wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_in_Venezuela


It isn't about the people's enjoyment of the benefits but can a country sustain it. I'm sure they love and support all those policies, right up to the point that it caused all those who were supporting it to flee, leaving them with mass shortages, hyperinflation, and unemployment.
 
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