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Venezuela Is Falling Apart

Cant answer the question? Venezuela has shortages of even the most basic supplies because Chavez and his inept retarded Socialist Central planners ran every industry they Nationalized ( stole ) into the ground.

They're dependent on imports for everything, even coffee, but importers dont want to be paid with worthless bolivars, so no goods and supplies.

Why are their bolivars worthless ? Because the Venezuala Govt starting printing, first to make a profit and now out of sheer desperation

Its called " Seignoriage", and no Nation is STUPID enough to try and use it as a way of making profit.....unless your Venezuela's Socialist Central planners that is

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-08-28/printing-money-goes-haywire-in-venezuela

No, they weren't " doing great " before oil prices dropped.

Their socialist central planners mismanaged their wealth producing industries into the ground and foolishly built their whole economy around a single volatile commodity and were printing sovereign currency to make a profit.

Those "wealth producing industries" were absolute garbage before he was elected because the only people who ever saw any of that wealth were the oil barons and landed aristocracy. Venezuela had staggering poverty rates spanning decades and the vast majority of the population had very little access to education, healthcare, and even clean water and food let alone toilet paper. The tiny number of people who benefited from those "wealth producing industries" couldn't care less. That is why Chavez was elected in the first place.

The Venezuelan economy has always been built around a single commodity and you are deliberately omitting the tremendous growth in economy and vast improvement in the lives of the majority of Venezuelans created by Chavez in the years leading up to the collapse in oil prices. The accrual of debt that resulted from the decline in oil prices is what prompted the government to start printing money and they tried to mitigate the impacts through currency manipulation. Not a new strategy in Venezuela by any means so making out like any of these things are unique to the socialist government is just a lie. The difference is that Venezuelans now have a government that cares about their quality of their lives in the good times and the bad times rather than being lorded over by a capitalist aristocracy that doesn't care at all.
 
Those "wealth producing industries" were absolute garbage before he was elected because the only people who ever saw any of that wealth were the oil barons and landed aristocracy. Venezuela had staggering poverty rates spanning decades and the vast majority of the population had very little access to education, healthcare, and even clean water and food let alone toilet paper. The tiny number of people who benefited from those "wealth producing industries" couldn't care less. That is why Chavez was elected in the first place.

The Venezuelan economy has always been built around a single commodity and you are deliberately omitting the tremendous growth in economy and vast improvement in the lives of the majority of Venezuelans created by Chavez in the years leading up to the collapse in oil prices. The accrual of debt that resulted from the decline in oil prices is what prompted the government to start printing money and they tried to mitigate the impacts through currency manipulation. Not a new strategy in Venezuela by any means so making out like any of these things are unique to the socialist government is just a lie. The difference is that Venezuelans now have a government that cares about their quality of their lives in the good times and the bad times rather than being lorded over by a capitalist aristocracy that doesn't care at all.

Wow, all the " good "Chavez did has been wiped out by his own corrupt toxic ideology.

Venezuela has to import COFFEE of all things ( Lol ! ). Has to import food, basic supplies, and no " Seignoriage " isn't debt " mitigation" , its actually a really good way to make your currency absolutely worthless really quickly

Its why no sovereign nation has tried it to any extent...exept for Venezuela

So who's been in charge ? Not Capitalist, not people who understand basic market principles.

No, Socialist have been in charge for some time now.

They're the ones who chose not to diversify, who chose not to build up other sectors and who chose to become DEPENDENT ON IMPORTERS WHILE THEY WERE DESTROYING THEIR CURRENCY

Oil prices are just a side not to the Socialist basket case that is Venezuela
 
Wow, all the " good "Chavez did has been wiped out by his own corrupt toxic ideology.

Venezuela has to import COFFEE of all things ( Lol ! ). Has to import food, basic supplies, and no " Seignoriage " isn't debt " mitigation" , its actually a really good way to make your currency absolutely worthless really quickly

Its why no sovereign nation has tried it to any extent...exept for Venezuela

So who's been in charge ? Not Capitalist, not people who understand basic market principles.

No, Socialist have been in charge for some time now.

They're the ones who chose not to diversify, who chose not to build up other sectors and who chose to become DEPENDENT ON IMPORTERS WHILE THEY WERE DESTROYING THEIR CURRENCY

Oil prices are just a side not to the Socialist basket case that is Venezuela

Again, you either don't know anything about Venezuela's economy before Chavez was elected or you are deliberately omitting it.
 
why did Venezuela think that the same centralized socialist policies which have been failing world-wide since their inception would work in Venezuela? because of oil? did Venezuela really think America was stealing their oil? it's called investment; you cant afford to put the infrastructure in to extract and process the oil, we'll put it in, but in return we get a good deal for xx years. that's capitalism, there is not a single example in world history of a capitalist republican democracy collapsing. there are numerous examples of formerly capitalist republican democracies, which are now borderline socialist nations, in economic death spiral. half of the EU comes to mind.

look at china; they abandoned the socialist nonsense in the late 70s because they could see where it was heading, where it was heading is next door...in north korea. China kept tight state control (and use it to actually AID their businesses!), but their businesses are allowed to freely compete more or less, and they thrive. meanwhile in the USA, we're implementing tight state control (and using it to strangle our businesses!).

people, don't believe me, don't believe anyone on the forum, do your research. it never works. socialism. never. works. don't destroy any more nations, don't kill any more people, for the love of whatever it is you believe in stop and think.

Once again I find myself suggesting some reading. The book, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" is a quite good intro to the topic of how developed countries, esp. the U.S. have 're-colonialized' developing countries.
 
The more the government runs an economy, the more ****ed up that economy will be.

That is a macroeconomic natural law.
 
"Venezuela Is Falling Apart" is what you get from people who don't know what conditions were like in Venezuela under the oil barons.

Which is what one would say, if one didn't know how much better off the country would be, had it not had the lost decade. Chavez could have helped the people. He had the power, but he chose to install really destructive policies, if long term development is the aim. The people living today are the losers and he was the winner. It is as easy as that.
 
Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro has issued a 60 day state of emergency, but parliament says it is not necessary and is only a political tactic to suppress protests. Food is becoming scarce, water and electricity are rationed, Venezuelan currency is worthless, and the murder rate is now one of the highest in the world. Protests continue in Caracas and other large cities.


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The more the government runs an economy, the more ****ed up that economy will be.

That is a macroeconomic natural law.

There's truth in there. It's badly stated, but some truth abides.

We have yet to see a case where a government could successfully 'run' an economy. Central Planning has been a failure everywhere I can think of that it's been tried.

OTOH... government has an absolutely crucial role in running a capitalist economy. It must regulate in order to keep the playing field more or less level (managing with an aim toward equal opportunity - not equal outcomes)... and to keep capitalism's inherent tendency to oscillate out of control... under control.

Blanket statements - like the one above - do as much to obscure the reality as to illuminate it.
 
Gosh, maybe I'm related to Putin?!?!?!

Still, all things considered, and with your permission, I am curious as to what role the CIA might have played in this destabilization effort.

Lord Only Knows how much our boys like to foment regime change 'round the globe, especially in South America.

Maybe The Donald is going to change the regime inside the Beltway, eh? ;)

To be clear, and correct me if I'm wrong, there is absolutely nothing indicating the CIA had anything to do with this, right? And it's just as possible that it was done by the Chinese or Russians or anyone else that could.
 
To be clear, and correct me if I'm wrong, there is absolutely nothing indicating the CIA had anything to do with this, right? And it's just as possible that it was done by the Chinese or Russians or anyone else that could.

Nothing I've seen... but I haven't dug into it, either. Of course, one of the aims of such actions is invisibility. The next choice is plausible deniability. So... odds are... we'd never know. Keeps those conspiracy theorists busy. And keeps the citizenry blissfully ignorant.
 
There's truth in there. It's badly stated, but some truth abides.

We have yet to see a case where a government could successfully 'run' an economy. Central Planning has been a failure everywhere I can think of that it's been tried.

OTOH... government has an absolutely crucial role in running a capitalist economy. It must regulate in order to keep the playing field more or less level (managing with an aim toward equal opportunity - not equal outcomes)... and to keep capitalism's inherent tendency to oscillate out of control... under control.

Blanket statements - like the one above - do as much to obscure the reality as to illuminate it.

Govt does NOT need to be heavily involved in a Capitalist economy.

Their unprecedented involvement and interference created the Housing bubble and led to trillions of dollars in Subprime backed MBSs being distributed throughout the Worlds capital markets

In the early 90's the Govt declared that the decades old standards used by Banks to thoroughly vet the ability of a lender to pay back their loans were innately discriminatory

Clinton put together a 10 Federal agency strong " Fair Lending Task Force " and then set out on a unprecedented Federal initiative to shake down private lenders

Lenders were sued by the DOJ, HUD and community activist groups like ACORN into submission.

The GSEs were then co-opted by Clinton to buy these loans by while Clinton appointed his corrupt Democrat buddies ( Franklin Raines, Jamie Gorelick, Valerie Jarret ) to run them into the ground by buying up a massive amount of worthless loans

The Subprime fiasco was rooted in Govt policies that forced the Banks to meet the Govt's standard of " fairness" and in the end, the people who those regulations were created for lost the most.
 
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Nothing I've seen... but I haven't dug into it, either. Of course, one of the aims of such actions is invisibility. The next choice is plausible deniability. So... odds are... we'd never know. Keeps those conspiracy theorists busy. And keeps the citizenry blissfully ignorant.

There is always something or someone that knows something. If there is nothing, then they probably had nothing to do with it. An investigator once told me that he was sure that there was no conspiracy to assassinate JFK, because in all those years there would have been someone that knew something and would have used it to get out of a jamb. There was nothing, ever.
 
Govt does NOT need to be heavily involved in a Capitalist economy.

Their unprecedented involvement and interference created the Housing bubble and led to trillions of dollars in Subprime backed MBSs being distributed throughout the Worlds capital markets

In the early 90's the Govt declared that the decades old standards used by Banks to thoroughly vet the ability of a lender to pay back their loans were innately discriminatory

Clinton put together a 10 Federal agency strong " Fair Lending Task Force " and then set out on a unprecedented Federal initiative to shake down private lenders

Lenders were sued by the DOJ, HUD and community activist groups like ACORN into submission.

The GSEs were then co-opted by Clinton to buy these loans by while Clinton appointed his corrupt Democrat buddies ( Franklin Raines, Jamie Gorelick, Valerie Jarret ) to run them into the ground by buying up a massive amount of worthless loans

The Subprime fiasco was rooted in Govt policies that forced the Banks to meet the Govt's standard of " fairness" and in the end, the people who those regulations were created for lost the most.

Saaayyyy... aren't you the fella that accused me of dishonest debate, thru the use of a No True Scotsman fallacy? And when I challenged that assertion you responded with a link that defines that fallacy... but did not support your allegation? And so I asked you again (see my #60) to support your allegation, by use of the criteria stated in your own link? And you haven't? It's a bit hard to engage with you - when that sort of egregious allegation is hanging over our head. Would you like to finally support it... or are you ready to withdraw it? Matters not to me, and once it's resolved - we can move on to other topics.
 
Saaayyyy... aren't you the fella that accused me of dishonest debate, thru the use of a No True Scotsman fallacy? And when I challenged that assertion you responded with a link that defines that fallacy... but did not support your allegation? And so I asked you again (see my #60) to support your allegation, by use of the criteria stated in your own link? And you haven't? It's a bit hard to engage with you - when that sort of egregious allegation is hanging over our head. Would you like to finally support it... or are you ready to withdraw it? Matters not to me, and once it's resolved - we can move on to other topics.

I already responded by linking to Wiki and quoting the definition of what a " No True Scotsman fallacy " actually is

You seem to have you're own personal definition so Im not going to waste any more time trying to convince you otherwise

Now, back to the post you just ignored.

Govt involvement into a Capitalist economy under the pretense of mitigating disparity and or assuring some subjective standard of " fairness " is absolutely destructive.

Hard to believe there are Americans that actually think the Govt should be given the authority to be the ultimate arbiter of " fairness " AFTER the 2008 Subprime crisis but, here we are with a avowed Socialist gaining ground on Hillary

Our education system has been going down hill for sometime I suppose

The people that advocate such a thing ignore outright the glaring examples ( my last post ) of the intended or unintended consequences of such over reach and further have no earthly concept of the truely innovative concepts writen in our founding documents

Natural law, inalienable rights, individual liberty and a constrained Govt. All of which are not compatible with Sanders or any other version of Socialism

Nothing new or innovative about what Sanders is selling. What he's selling is archaic, regressive and authortarian.

Its been tried again and again, and its failed miserably again and again
 
The current economic problems in Venezuela have nothing to do with the future of the USA.

Come back in 40 years and we'll talk about it.

Yes, yes... Just an isolated incident? The thing is, you don't want to wait 40 years when you are up to your neck in it and your goose is cooked. Or is it the slowly boiling frog?

Whatever the case, you will be eaten up.
 
Yes, yes... Just an isolated incident? The thing is, you don't want to wait 40 years when you are up to your neck in it and your goose is cooked. Or is it the slowly boiling frog?

Whatever the case, you will be eaten up.



You might be eaten up but I won't be.

I live in Europe and I'm completely isolated from Venezuela's problems.
 
You might be eaten up but I won't be.

I live in Europe and I'm completely isolated from Venezuela's problems.

You're not isolated from the ideology that created Venezuela's problems

If you live in Europe that is.
 
You're not isolated from the ideology that created Venezuela's problems

If you live in Europe that is.



I don't waste time worrying about ideology that causes problems for others.

If you want to do that 24/7 get after it.

:lol:
 
I don't waste time worrying about ideology that causes problems for others.

If you want to do that 24/7 get after it.

:lol:

Im not worried.

Progressivism, Liberalism, Leftist, etc has its own built in self destruct mechanism.

It doesn't do what it promises and the more its implemented, the more people that are forced to endure the consequences whether intended or unintended the greater the push to do away with it.

The 2014 Midterm routing of the Democrats by the GOP is a great example of just that

Hillary having to resort to pathetic pandering, identity Poltics and empty promises to gain support is another good example of it

I mean she cant run on the last 8 years of Obama's "successes " can she ? Nope

She cant run on her onw succeses and accomplishments can she ? Nope.

Her tenure at the State Department was disastrous.

So, leftism's built in self destruct mechanism . Its like a Fertilizer for growing Conservatives.
 
Im not worried.

Progressivism, Liberalism, Leftist, etc has its own built in self destruct mechanism.

It doesn't do what it promises and the more its implemented, the more people that are forced to endure the consequences whether intended or unintended the greater the push to do away with it.

The 2014 Midterm routing of the Democrats by the GOP is a great example of just that

Hillary having to resort to pathetic pandering, identity Poltics and empty promises to gain support is another good example of it
I mean she cant run on the last 8 years of Obama's "successes " can she ? Nope

She cant run on her onw succeses and accomplishments can she ? Nope.

Her tenure at the State Department was disastrous.

So, leftism's built in self destruct mechanism . Its like a Fertilizer for growing Conservatives.



Come back and tell us all about it after Clinton hands Trump his backside in November.

The clock is ticking.

No one can stop time and/or change.
 
Come back and tell us all about it after Clinton hands Trump his backside in November.

The clock is ticking.

No one can stop time and/or change.



Yea Hillary's a veritable shoe in this November.....Lol !

Trump and Hillary tied in swing states
Dead heat: Trump, Clinton tied in 3 swing-state polls - POLITICO

I love how her supporters think that the absence of a DOJ indictment means shes guaranteed the Presidency

So they must be thinking that because establishment is all the rage this election cycle ( its so not ) that corrupt establishment is even better.

Yea her getting away with something that would have pur the average American in Federal prison for years, maybe even decades is really going to appeal to the undecided and independent voters

Lol....she's almost better off being indicted
 
To be clear, and correct me if I'm wrong, there is absolutely nothing indicating the CIA had anything to do with this, right? And it's just as possible that it was done by the Chinese or Russians or anyone else that could.

Certainly nothing in the mainstream media, no. But if the CIA were involved in it, would notice be published in the msm? Not likely.

Until Hasenfuss was shot down in Central America all those years ago, nobody had been told by the mainstream media of any CIA involvement.

What makes the CIA a suspect is its decades long record of regime change. Venezuela had fairly warm relations with Russia and the Russian navy some years back. The animosity between the US government and Chavez and his successor has been well known.

China and Russia don't seem to do things that way. The old soviets just invaded a country to bring it into line. The Chinese exercise their foreign influence through mutually beneficial commercial efforts and gifts such as the soccer stadium they built for at least one African country.

No, an ordinary citizen cannot prove any CIA involvement, and until Snowden came along, no citizen could prove the NSA was gathering all that illegal data. I merely speculate there is such involvement in the recent events in Venezuela and Brazil.
 
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