Venezuela Is Falling Apart

[shrubnose]

The us imports approximately 700,000 barrels day or a 1/4 of a billion barrels a year from Venezuela

which is a concern to the US.

How is that connected to the shortage of toilet paper there?

Fill us in.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

How is that connected to the shortage of toilet paper there?

Fill us in.

You cannot figure out how the amount oil and the price we pay for that oil affects their economy as well as ours.

 

[RetiredUSN]

You cannot figure out how the amount oil and the price we pay for that oil affects their economy as well as ours.

Sounds like Venezuela put all of it eggs in one basket.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Because Bernie Sanders who can't even win the election is such a serious threat to the US (which this topic isn't about either)...

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Sounds like Venezuela put all of it eggs in one basket.

That is one of the problems with a country with limited resources. I think is the classic problem of having more people than the area can support. As a finite amount of resources are divided among more and more people poverty is the usual result. Nature has solved that problem in the past and most likely will do it again.

 

[jmotivator]

Sounds like Venezuela put all of it eggs in one basket.

Exactly. The Chavismo economy drove out all of the private business when oil was at $100 a barrel and they couldn't help but stay in the green. But like the US housing bubble assumption that real estate could no longer lose value, or Greece's assumption that cheap money selling carbon credits would continue in perpetuity, or Venezuela operating under the assumption that $100 a barrel could never come to an end... much like Cuban dependence of the largess of Communist mega states assumed that those countries would live on forever and were caught off guard when the Soviet Union collapsed.

Over and over... short sighted, rosy assumptions make for terrible business models.

 

[joG]

I like to think of socialism as economic morphine: when you're in shock and missing a couple pints of blood, it's a really good idea to have a dose! If you keep taking it, though, you're not going to feel so good.

Funny thing is that many countries take the serum in the good days and refuse to realize what hurts before it kills them.

 

[OpportunityCost]

One cannot help but wonder exactly what the CIA role is in this situation.

One cannot help but wonder why you would make such a woefully easy begging the question fallacy. :yawn:

 

[David G]

One cannot help but wonder why you would make such a woefully easy begging the question fallacy. :yawn:

Well... it's certainly a bit of a detour from the OP... otoh - the OP was vague enough that such a musing seems perfectly understandable. Though - perhaps worth of its own thread...

 

[David G]

Can anything ever happen in the world that isnt the fault of the US govt?

No... there probably isn't <G>

But seriously... we are involved in more places, and in more ways, than most folks realize. For those who would know more, the book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" is a good place to start.

 

[David G]

I'd have to agree. The most recent example of a failed socialist state. I don't think that the Bernie supporters will pay the needed attention to this that it deserves, and if they are dimly aware, I don't think they'll be in a frame of mind to draw the correct and needed conclusions from Venezuela's collapse.

Feel the Bern Venezuela...

What silliness. Anyone who equates the brand of Socialism attempted in Venezuela with the sort of Democratic Socialism espoused by Bernie Sanders is either deliberately lying or woefully ignorant.

 

[eohrnberger]

What silliness. Anyone who equates the brand of Socialism attempted in Venezuela with the sort of Democratic Socialism espoused by Bernie Sanders is either deliberately lying or woefully ignorant.

Birds of a feather.

Do they, or do they not both have their roots in 'socialism'?

Seems to me that between the two it's only a matter of degree.

 

[David G]

Birds of a feather.

Do they, or do they not both have their roots in 'socialism'?

Seems to me that between the two it's only a matter of degree.

If you actually do not comprehend the distinction... my condolences. My suggestion would be: talk less; read more.

 

[Fenton]

What silliness. Anyone who equates the brand of Socialism attempted in Venezuela with the sort of Democratic Socialism espoused by Bernie Sanders is either deliberately lying or woefully ignorant.

There's little distinction between the two and you're no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't change that

You're just poorly informed when it comes to the real consequences of Socialist initiatives and how Venezuela got to where its at today

Chavez and his inept Socialist central planners mismanaged and drove into the ground every wealth creating industry they stole.

They drove out private and foreign investment and made outsourcing illegal.

Sanders if he had his way would do the same. Nationalize large sectors of the US economy and drive off Capital investment in our economy with idiotic tax inceeases and draconian regulations

 

[VanceMack]

Birds of a feather.

Do they, or do they not both have their roots in 'socialism'?

Seems to me that between the two it's only a matter of degree.

"Democratic Socialism" is neither democratic nor socialism. Advocates of Democratic Socialism merely want capitalism with social service programs on steroids. They NEED capitalism because thriving capitalist economies can then be raided to pay for social programs.

Sanders however has long ago shown his stripes. He admires the communist dictators of central America. He would love to take us down that road because he is a true believer. Congress would not let that happen. At least not at the present construction.

 

[David G]

There's little distinction between the two and you're no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't change that

You're just poorly informed when it comes to the real consequences of Socialist initiatives and how Venezuela got to where its at today

Chavez and his inept Socialist central planners mismanaged and drove into the ground every wealth creating industry they stole.

They drove out private and foreign investment and made outsourcing illegal.

Sanders if he had his way would do the same. Nationalize large sectors of the US economy and drive off Capital investment in our economy with idiotic tax inceeases and draconian regulations

First - you appear to misunderstand what the No True... fallacy actually IS. Here ya go... you might want to review, and modify your allegation? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Second - the bolded assertion. It's a problem. See... Sanders has a large 'body of work' which can be examined. And when examined - offers very little by way of suggestion that he and Chavez share a mindset or approach to policy issues.

 

[eohrnberger]

First - you appear to misunderstand what the No True... fallacy actually IS. Here ya go... you might want to review, and modify your allegation? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Second - the bolded assertion. It's a problem. See... Sanders has a large 'body of work' which can be examined. And when examined - offers very little by way of suggestion that he and Chavez share a mindset or approach to policy issues.

Not so much by my reading.

In 1985 Sanders traveled to Managua, Nicaragua to celebrate the sixth anniversary of the rise to power of Daniel Ortega and his Marxist-Leninist Sandinista government. In a letter which he addressed to the people of Nicaragua, Sanders denounced the anti-Communist activities of the Reagan administration, which he said was under the control of corporate interests. Assuring the Nicaraguans that Americans were “fair minded people” who had more to offer “than the bombs and economic sabotage” promoted by Reagan, he declared: “In the long run, I am certain that you will win, and that your heroic revolution against the Somoza dictatorship will be maintained and strengthened.”

Following his trip to Nicaragua, Sanders penned a letter to the White House indicating that Ortega would be willing to meet with Reagan to negotiate a resolution to the conflict. The mayor also sought to enlist the help of former president Jimmy Carter, telling him that the people of Nicaragua were very fond of him. Sanders even invited Ortega to visit Burlington, though the Nicaraguan president declined.

By no means was Sanders's trip to Nicaragua his only trek to a Communist country. He also visited Fidel Castro's Cuba in the 1980s and had a friendly meeting with the mayor of Havana.

In an August 8, 1985 interview on a Vermont government-access television station, Sanders discussed his recent trip to Nicaragua and drew parallels between the Castro and Ortega regimes. "In 1961," he said, "[America] invaded Cuba, and everybody was totally convinced that Castro was the worst guy in the world, that all the Cuban people were going to rise up in rebellion against Fidel Castro. They forgot that he educated the kids, gave them health care, totally transformed the society. You know, not to say Fidel Castro and Cuba are perfect -- they are certainly not -- but just because Ronald Reagan dislikes these people does not mean to say that the people in their own nations feel the same way. So they expected this tremendous uprising in Cuba; it never came. And if they are expecting a tremendous uprising in Nicaragua, they are very, very, very mistaken." (For video of this 1985 interview, click here.)
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2266
[/quot]

 

[Fenton]

First - you appear to misunderstand what the No True... fallacy actually IS. Here ya go... you might want to review, and modify your allegation? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Second - the bolded assertion. It's a problem. See... Sanders has a large 'body of work' which can be examined. And when examined - offers very little by way of suggestion that he and Chavez share a mindset or approach to policy issues.

Sanders also has a website where he lays out his plans to tank whats left of our economy and turn our healthcare over to a bloated, corrupt, unaccountable and mismanaged bureaucracy.

So all of America can learn what its like to be put on a Govt waiting list and then ignored until you die

Has anyone been held accountable for the what the VA did to hundreds of thousands of US Veterans ?

Nope. The Govt is never held accountable especially when the Democrats are running the show.

He's pretty clear on his plan to chase off Capital investment ( higher taxes ) and his plans to drive up energy cost on the Middle class and poor through his plan to tax Co2

Liberalism, Socialism, Leftism whatever you wan to call it doesn't do what it claims. It only creates equality and stops disparity by wiping out the Middle-class.

The Middle class are a threat to people like Sanders because they have through hard work and education have accrued enough wealth to be independent and that means they're not dependent on the Govt

Ironic that some people see Sanders and his ideas as innovative. There's nothing new about what he's proposing

Innovative is limited Govt, personal liberty and the concept of Natural law. The content of our founding documents which aren't compatible in any way with what Sanders is proposing

 

[David G]

Not so much by my reading.

In 1985 Sanders traveled to Managua, Nicaragua to celebrate the sixth anniversary of the rise to power of Daniel Ortega and his Marxist-Leninist Sandinista government. In a letter which he addressed to the people of Nicaragua, Sanders denounced the anti-Communist activities of the Reagan administration, which he said was under the control of corporate interests. Assuring the Nicaraguans that Americans were “fair minded people” who had more to offer “than the bombs and economic sabotage” promoted by Reagan, he declared: “In the long run, I am certain that you will win, and that your heroic revolution against the Somoza dictatorship will be maintained and strengthened.”

Following his trip to Nicaragua, Sanders penned a letter to the White House indicating that Ortega would be willing to meet with Reagan to negotiate a resolution to the conflict. The mayor also sought to enlist the help of former president Jimmy Carter, telling him that the people of Nicaragua were very fond of him. Sanders even invited Ortega to visit Burlington, though the Nicaraguan president declined.

By no means was Sanders's trip to Nicaragua his only trek to a Communist country. He also visited Fidel Castro's Cuba in the 1980s and had a friendly meeting with the mayor of Havana.

In an August 8, 1985 interview on a Vermont government-access television station, Sanders discussed his recent trip to Nicaragua and drew parallels between the Castro and Ortega regimes. "In 1961," he said, "[America] invaded Cuba, and everybody was totally convinced that Castro was the worst guy in the world, that all the Cuban people were going to rise up in rebellion against Fidel Castro. They forgot that he educated the kids, gave them health care, totally transformed the society. You know, not to say Fidel Castro and Cuba are perfect -- they are certainly not -- but just because Ronald Reagan dislikes these people does not mean to say that the people in their own nations feel the same way. So they expected this tremendous uprising in Cuba; it never came. And if they are expecting a tremendous uprising in Nicaragua, they are very, very, very mistaken." (For video of this 1985 interview, click here.)
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2266
[/quot]

Stipulated.

And all rather beside the point. The depth of your ignorance is evident. We're all ignorant of lots of things. This is one of yours. My prior advice stands.

 

[eohrnberger]

Stipulated.

And all rather beside the point. The depth of your ignorance is evident. We're all ignorant of lots of things. This is one of yours. My prior advice stands.

Probably should make the topic of discussion Venezuela, how it is falling apart because of socialism, similarities and differences in Chavez's version of socialism and Bernie's version of socialism, and not so much about me. What do you think?

Anyway, from what I'm seeing here, Bernie is pretty much a Communist in all but name only. A name he avoids in favor of 'democratic Socialist' (mixed case purposeful), probably because if he called himself a Communist, he'd get no where in the election. As it is he's gathering great numbers of little to no information voters, who probably don't have a clue as to his background, his 'body of work' (although I don't think he's worked much in his life - constantly being in elected office instead), and have bought into the 'give me free stuff' meme Bernie keeps pushing.

 

[David G]

Sanders also has a website where he lays out his plans to tank whats left of our economy and turn our healthcare over to a bloated, corrupt, unaccountable and mismanaged bureaucracy.

So all of America can learn what its like to be put on a Govt waiting list and then ignored until you die

Has anyone been held accountable for the what the VA did to hundreds of thousands of US Veterans ?

Nope. The Govt is never held accountable especially when the Democrats are running the show.

He's pretty clear on his plan to chase off Capital investment ( higher taxes ) and his plans to drive up energy cost on the Middle class and poor through his plan to tax Co2

Liberalism, Socialism, Leftism whatever you wan to call it doesn't do what it claims. It only creates equality and stops disparity by wiping out the Middle-class.

The Middle class are a threat to people like Sanders because they have through hard work and education have accrued enough wealth to be independent and that means they're not dependent on the Govt

Ironic that some people see Sanders and his ideas as innovative. There's nothing new about what he's proposing

Innovative is limited Govt, personal liberty and the concept of Natural law. The content of our founding documents which aren't compatible in any way with what Sanders is proposing

I would characterize your interpretation of Sander's positions as... faulty. But since you chose not to link to the website you refer to... I'll do so, and people can decide for themselves: https://berniesanders.com/?nosplash=true/

BTW - gave up on the NTS allegation? Want to make it some other Logical Fallacy? Or are you simply ready to acknowledge your error?

 

[Fenton]

I would characterize your interpretation of Sander's positions as... faulty. But since you chose not to link to the website you refer to... I'll do so, and people can decide for themselves: https://berniesanders.com/?nosplash=true/

BTW - gave up on the NTS allegation? Want to make it some other Logical Fallacy? Or are you simply ready to acknowledge your error?

Sanders 12 Point plan
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/

 

[Thoreau72]

One cannot help but wonder why you would make such a woefully easy begging the question fallacy. :yawn:

Do you mean to say you had wondered the same thing?

Have you wondered about any possible role of the Agency in the machinations in Brazil? I have.

 

[David G]

Probably should make the topic of discussion Venezuela, how it is falling apart because of socialism, similarities and differences in Chavez's version of socialism and Bernie's version of socialism, and not so much about me. What do you think?

Anyway, from what I'm seeing here, Bernie is pretty much a Communist in all but name only. A name he avoids in favor of 'democratic Socialist' (mixed case purposeful), probably because if he called himself a Communist, he'd get no where in the election. As it is he's gathering great numbers of little to no information voters, who probably don't have a clue as to his background, his 'body of work' (although I don't think he's worked much in his life - constantly being in elected office instead), and have bought into the 'give me free stuff' meme Bernie keeps pushing.

Much preferable to leave personalities out of it. However, on any topic, at some point - repeating misinformation, data that's been debunked, logical fallacies, or outright lies... and refusing to examine whether you might be incorrect... begins to shift the discussion from a collegial one to something else. If we are all interested in truth, fairness, and educating ourselves when possible and others when we have the means to do so... if we are all exhibiting a collegial approach to discourse... then I'd say personalities, or individual faults, do not need to come into play. We all have faults - and it's only polite to ignore them as much as possible. But when they impact the discussion, detour it fruitlessly, or even derail or stall it entirely... then our quirks become germane. I can't claim to know all there is to know about the characteristics and history of every variation on economic systems. But I do know a good bit. Enough to recognize an unfortunate level of ignorance on the topic when it is so glaringly presented, and insistently repeated. And when it threatens to derail the discussion.

Speaking of which - maybe there's a better sub-forum in which to discuss forum etiquette. Would you like to ask the moderators to send this discussion there?

 

[Quag]

Do you mean to say you had wondered the same thing?

Have you wondered about any possible role of the Agency in the machinations in Brazil? I have.

Of course you have, but then you think Sandy Hook was staged and radioactive non exploding mini-nukes that explode and emit no radiation were used on 911.