Venezuela Is Falling Apart

[eohrnberger]

Much preferable to leave personalities out of it. However, on any topic, at some point - repeating misinformation, data that's been debunked, logical fallacies, or outright lies... and refusing to examine whether you might be incorrect... begins to shift the discussion from a collegial one to something else. If we are all interested in truth, fairness, and educating ourselves when possible and others when we have the means to do so... if we are all exhibiting a collegial approach to discourse... then I'd say personalities, or individual faults, do not need to come into play. We all have faults - and it's only polite to ignore them as much as possible. But when they impact the discussion, detour it fruitlessly, or even derail or stall it entirely... then our quirks become germane. I can't claim to know all there is to know about the characteristics and history of every variation on economic systems. But I do know a good bit. Enough to recognize an unfortunate level of ignorance on the topic when it is so glaringly presented, and insistently repeated. And when it threatens to derail the discussion.

Speaking of which - maybe there's a better sub-forum in which to discuss forum etiquette. Would you like to ask the moderators to send this discussion there?

Here I am trying to drag the topic bask to the thread title, presenting several different possible sub-topics related to it, and your post seems you want to keep dragging it off.

As to forum for forum etiquette discussions, I've never had a need for them. Seems I'm pretty polite and of general good mood, and not taking Internet forum posts all that seriously.

If you want to ask the mods to do something, that's fine. Have at it.

 

[David G]

Sanders 12 Point plan
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/

What a lovely summary!

Now... would you like to make a side-by-side comparison with the recent policies of Venezuela to support your allegations?

Nothing more on the No True Scotsman charge, eh? Well... your failure to correctly apply the term tells me something. Your unwillingness to address your mistake in a gentlemanly fashion tells me some more.

 

[Fenton]

What a lovely summary!

Now... would you like to make a side-by-side comparison with the recent policies of Venezuela to support your allegations?

Nothing more on the No True Scotsman charge, eh? Well... your failure to correctly apply the term tells me something. Your unwillingness to address your mistake in a gentlemanly fashion tells me some more.

You dismiss out of hand any comparative examples that would counter your assertion that Venezuelan Socialism is distinct from the Socialism that Sanders is selling

Welcome to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Ive given you Sanders Socialist proposals that include Nationalizing our Healthcare. If you cant make the comparison to Chavez's Nationalizing of Venezuela's industries and then running them into the ground then there's nothing I can do for you

Ive given yoy examples of Sanders plan to chase off private sector capital investment. If you cant make the comparisons to Chavez's driving off foreign and private investment with draconian Socialist legislation then there's nothing I can do for you.

You're just, AGAIN dismissing anything that contradicts your argument out of hand

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

I discovered a new channel called VICELAND that I like very much.

One regular show they have there is called States of Undress, where this cute little gal goes to different countries and looks at their fashion life, and other things.

When she was in Venezuela she had to pay a black market guy money to get here some TAMPONS. They are illegal there and cannot be sold in stores.

Plus she showed the scores of people in line at a drug store to buy things from the almost bare shelves at very expensive prices.

Tampons illegal? Complete insanity.

I like here show a lot because it does not sugar coat the reality of the way things are at places she visits.

Nor does she have any agenda to "prove" anything. She just shows it like it is.

 

[David G]

Responses interleaved --

You dismiss out of hand any comparative examples that would counter your assertion that Venezuelan Socialism is distinct from the Socialism that Sanders is selling

That would be incorrect. I am not dismissing them out of hand. I am saying you need to look at his 12-step program with more 'rigor'. I don't believe his policies - as shown with this list, or as suggested by his past proposals, approach the policies of present-day Argentina. I invited you to show how they did, in specific ways.

Welcome to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Again I fail to see how this applies. Here's a simple description of the Fallacy for your use in an explanation --

no true scotsman

You made what could be called an appeal to purity as a way to dismiss relevant criticisms or flaws of your argument.

In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one's argument.

Example: Angus declares that Scotsmen do not put sugar on their porridge, to which Lachlan points out that he is a Scotsman and puts sugar on his porridge. Furious, like a true Scot, Angus yells that no true Scotsman sugars his porridge.

Ive given you Sanders Socialist proposals that include Nationalizing our Healthcare. If you cant make the comparison to Chavez's Nationalizing of Venezuela's industries and then running them into the ground then there's nothing I can do for you

Nationalizing our health care delivery system is, indeed, a step toward socialism. I certainly wouldn't argue otherwise. As was worker's compensation, Medicare, Social Security, et.al. I have yet to hear from you how this step (obviously needed when one compares our outcomes to the rest of the Western Democracies) rises to the same level of Argentina nationalizing the means of production across swaths of industries.

Ive given yoy examples of Sanders plan to chase off private sector capital investment. If you cant make the comparisons to Chavez's driving off foreign and private investment with draconian Socialist legislation then there's nothing I can do for you.

Examples, you say? If you are referring to his 12 STEPS... which of them would you say would 'chase off...'?? Or are you referencing some other of your contributions that I missed? Be specific, please. More rigorous, if you will.

You're just, AGAIN dismissing anything that contradicts your argument out of hand

Simply repeating an assertion - without buttressing it further - does not strengthen your argument.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Do you mean to say you had wondered the same thing?

Have you wondered about any possible role of the Agency in the machinations in Brazil? I have.

What you did instead is make the implication with no proof so you can play liberal conspiracy hero. Of course you don't have anything resembling an argument which is why you worded it the way you did, so its harder to challenge.

 

[Thoreau72]

What you did instead is make the implication with no proof so you can play liberal conspiracy hero. Of course you don't have anything resembling an argument which is why you worded it the way you did, so its harder to challenge.

I hope you're not suggesting that the CIA does not exist? I know guys who worked many years for them as pilots in one or the other of their far flung aviation assets.

The State Dept is developing a reputation for regime change, has had such a reputation since the 1950s if you count it all. Why not Venezuela, Nicaragua, or about any other. That's just history.

 

[Fenton]

Responses interleaved --

* sigh *.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

" ad hoc attempt to retain a unreasoned assertion "

 

[OpportunityCost]

I hope you're not suggesting that the CIA does not exist? I know guys who worked many years for them as pilots in one or the other of their far flung aviation assets.

The State Dept is developing a reputation for regime change, has had such a reputation since the 1950s if you count it all. Why not Venezuela, Nicaragua, or about any other. That's just history.

My god. Show me where I argued the CIA does not exist? I'm asking you to prove your bull****. If you cant provide any evidence you are just slinging crap cause USA/CIA bad, which is just stupid.

 

[David G]

* sigh *.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

" ad hoc attempt to retain a unreasoned assertion "

Lovely. Let's use your citation --

No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1]

When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).[2]

So... I must be particularly dense today. Perhaps you can walk me thru it.

1. When it comes to the matter of equating Argentina & Bernie... what 'universal claim' did I make?
2. What 'counterexample' did you then offer?
3. How did I then 'move the goalposts' rhetorically?

 

[Thoreau72]

My god. Show me where I argued the CIA does not exist? I'm asking you to prove your bull****. If you cant provide any evidence you are just slinging crap cause USA/CIA bad, which is just stupid.

I never worked for the CIA, so I can't say. All I know about them is they don't often tell the actual truth. They've been caught lying so many times that a rational person cannot place much faith in the veracity of their stories. But the pilots were cool guys, just doing a job.

Yes, I'm guilty of being skeptical of what the Agency says. I was 22 years old when I found out they were in the dope business, so this stuff in Venezuela is rather mild by comparison. CIA and State Department pretty much rule the world. I may be cynical, but that does not make me wrong.

 

[OpportunityCost]

I never worked for the CIA, so I can't say. All I know about them is they don't often tell the actual truth. They've been caught lying so many times that a rational person cannot place much faith in the veracity of their stories. But the pilots were cool guys, just doing a job.

Yes, I'm guilty of being skeptical of what the Agency says. I was 22 years old when I found out they were in the dope business, so this stuff in Venezuela is rather mild by comparison. CIA and State Department pretty much rule the world. I may be cynical, but that does not make me wrong.

Also, that proof thing. Seems like just blowing smoke otherwise.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Since the trend this thread is to be wildly off-topic, I suppose I'll jump on the bandwagon.
1. The only good form of Socialism is the Libertarian brand.
2. Venezuela has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders.
3. The same people arguing what a dangerous threat BS is to America are the same people saying he has no ****ing chance at winning anyhow...

...SO HOW THE **** CAN HE BE A THREAT IF HE HAS NO ****ING CHANCE OF WINNING!?

:bangingheadagainstwall:

HOW CAN PEOPLE BE SO UNFATHOMABLY STUPID AND PROUD OF IT SIMULTANEOUSLY!?

SMDFH

 

[RetiredUSN]

Since the trend this thread is to be wildly off-topic, I suppose I'll jump on the bandwagon.
1. The only good form of Socialism is the Libertarian brand.
2. Venezuela has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders.
3. The same people arguing what a dangerous threat BS is to America are the same people saying he has no ****ing chance at winning anyhow...

...SO HOW THE **** CAN HE BE A THREAT IF HE HAS NO ****ING CHANCE OF WINNING!?

:bangingheadagainstwall:

HOW CAN PEOPLE BE SO UNFATHOMABLY STUPID AND PROUD OF IT SIMULTANEOUSLY!?

SMDFH

Perhaps you are not looking in from the outside? I guess it is easier for a person with no dog in a dog fight like myself.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

Birds of a feather.

Do they, or do they not both have their roots in 'socialism'?

Seems to me that between the two it's only a matter of degree.

To be fair, libertarians and communists are distant cousins. Different brands of socialism can be incredibly different from each other, and I've seen a number of people make good arguments for how Sanders's political philosophy isn't even real socialism.

While you're right that the gap between Chaves and Sanders is a matter of degrees, it's a relatively large gap.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

Funny thing is that many countries take the serum in the good days and refuse to realize what hurts before it kills them.

Much like any other opioid.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Perhaps you are not looking in from the outside? I guess it is easier for a person with no dog in a dog fight like myself.

I just don't see how Bernie Sanders can simultaneously lose the Presidential race and destroy the country......
(More Clinton camp propaganda, obviously).

 

[QuadpolarNutjob]

why did Venezuela think that the same centralized socialist policies which have been failing world-wide since their inception would work in Venezuela? because of oil? did Venezuela really think America was stealing their oil? it's called investment; you cant afford to put the infrastructure in to extract and process the oil, we'll put it in, but in return we get a good deal for xx years. that's capitalism, there is not a single example in world history of a capitalist republican democracy collapsing. there are numerous examples of formerly capitalist republican democracies, which are now borderline socialist nations, in economic death spiral. half of the EU comes to mind.

look at china; they abandoned the socialist nonsense in the late 70s because they could see where it was heading, where it was heading is next door...in north korea. China kept tight state control (and use it to actually AID their businesses!), but their businesses are allowed to freely compete more or less, and they thrive. meanwhile in the USA, we're implementing tight state control (and using it to strangle our businesses!).

people, don't believe me, don't believe anyone on the forum, do your research. it never works. socialism. never. works. don't destroy any more nations, don't kill any more people, for the love of whatever it is you believe in stop and think.

 

[Napoleon]

This is what socialist autocratic systems do.state power can stave disaster off for a long time, while social policies and public production of private goods undermine economic efficiency first and then society's basis. The collapse can be unexpected and faster than seems possible. We have seen this before. No surprise.

"Venezuela Is Falling Apart" is what you get from people who don't know what conditions were like in Venezuela under the oil barons.

 

[Fenton]

"Venezuela Is Falling Apart" is what you get from people who don't know what conditions were like in Venezuela under the oil barons.

Oh well never mind then. Venezuela is doing great !

 

[Napoleon]

Oh well never mind then. Venezuela is doing great !

It was doing great until oil prices started falling.

 

[Fenton]

It was doing great until oil prices started falling.

Nonsense

Why are there shortages of basic goods and supplies in Venezuelan stores right now ?

 

[eohrnberger]

"Venezuela Is Falling Apart" is what you get from people who don't know what conditions were like in Venezuela under the oil barons.

Did they have food and toilet paper and electricity? Because those things seems to be unavailable now.

 

[Napoleon]

Nonsense. Why are there shortages of basic goods and supplies in Venezuelan stores right now ?

Venezuela's problems ultimately boil down to oil prices. This is what happens when your territory has only 1 resource people want in large quantities and the market price tanks. It certainly isn't perfect, far from it, but the fact that people are complaining about toilet paper instead of a lack of basic education and healthcare should tell you how far they've come since the oil barons got the boot. Before Chavez, the best the vast majority of Venezuelans could hope for was that they wouldn't starve to death.

 

[Fenton]

Venezuela's problems ultimately boil down to oil prices. This is what happens when your territory has only 1 resource people want in large quantities and the market price tanks. It certainly isn't perfect, far from it, but the fact that people are complaining about toilet paper instead of a lack of basic education and healthcare should tell you how far they've come since the oil barons got the boot. Before Chavez, the best the vast majority of Venezuelans could hope for was that they wouldn't starve to death.

Cant answer the question? Venezuela has shortages of even the most basic supplies because Chavez and his inept retarded Socialist Central planners ran every industry they Nationalized ( stole ) into the ground.

They're dependent on imports for everything, even coffee, but importers dont want to be paid with worthless bolivars, so no goods and supplies.

Why are their bolivars worthless ? Because the Venezuala Govt starting printing, first to make a profit and now out of sheer desperation

Its called " Seignoriage", and no Nation is STUPID enough to try and use it as a way of making profit.....unless your Venezuela's Socialist Central planners that is

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-08-28/printing-money-goes-haywire-in-venezuela

No, they weren't " doing great " before oil prices dropped.

Their socialist central planners mismanaged their wealth producing industries into the ground and foolishly built their whole economy around a single volatile commodity and were printing sovereign currency to make a profit.

A IDIOTIC idea even by Socialist standards.