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Vegetarianism/Veganism

Kelzie said:
Insects are under the class Insecta, and therefore irrelevant.
They are animals, I don't see why they would be irrelevant.

Kelzie said:
Not really, since you included domesticated dog in your example of the five most intelligent animals. Obviously, domestication doesn't have much of an effect.

Just because they are smart doesn't mean they are a valid example of natural selection. They were artificially bred to be the way they are.

Bonobos also share 95% of our DNA.
Source?

And how many "parts of nature" kill animals they don't intend to eat?

Bobcats, bears, tigers, hippos, and pretty much any other territorial creature.

Kelzie said:
Actually, this is kinda bad for your thesis. Out of the top five most intelligent animals, one is an herbivore...20% is hardly a tendency.
There are 7 on the list, so that's 6/7 or 86% non-herbivores in the top 7 (not to mention that the horse is last in the list) And that there are multiple species of great ape (7), new world monkeys (114), Dolphins and whales (144), Dogs (40), octopi (289), Crows and Ravens (43), but only 10 in the horse family. I will happily list the species of each family if you wish.
That's 637 species non-herbivore out of 647, giving me 98.5% tendency (using the top 7 as a sample) towards non-herbivore species.

CARNIVOROUS SPECIES AND OMNIVOROUS SPECIES ARE SMARTER THAN HERBIVORES 98.5% OF THE TIME. (using our broad calculation)
 
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As for "parts of nature" Let's talk about all of the poisonous animals. Poisonous snakes don't intend to eat humans. I know, they are protecting themselves. That is not the motive stated though. How many sharks eat a whole person? What should we do if one species(non-human) is extincting another? Nature ends certain species. Humans are part of nature. Motives are irrelevant. We are doing fine without the dinasaurs. I am not advocating purposely extincting species. I just think that it is silly to use an extinction argument to promote veganism (Sounds like a cult from Star Trek). BTW our closest relative is the chimpanzee and it shares 97% of our DNA.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
They are animals, I don't see why they would be irrelevant.

Really doesn't matter. There are just as many carnivores bugs that are just as dumb.

Just because they are smart doesn't mean they are a valid example of natural selection. They were artificially bred to be the way they are.

Well, then we're going to have to take all of the dogs out of your list.


"Bonobos and Common Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives, sharing approximately 95% of their DNA with us"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

Bobcats, bears, tigers, hippos, and pretty much any other territorial creature.

Bobcats, tigers and bears will eat you. And hippos. Another smart herbivore. My point was that none of these animals will search out a species (say wolves) and kill it.

There are 7 on the list, so that's 6/7 or 86% non-herbivores in the top 7 (not to mention that the horse is last in the list) And that there are multiple species of great ape (7), new world monkeys (114), Dolphins and whales (144), Dogs (40), octopi (289), Crows and Ravens (43), but only 10 in the horse family. I will happily list the species of each family if you wish.
That's 637 species non-herbivore out of 647, giving me 98.5% tendency (using the top 7 as a sample) towards non-herbivore species.

Well, we're going to have to take out the dogs. No natural selection and all. So that leaves 597. And I assume you don't believe that every single octopus is intelligent. Most likely half. Maybe. Many monkeys are herbivores. I'm not going to look at all 114 species, since it's your crazy theory, but be my guest. As I've already said, both gorillas and bonobos are herbivores, so you can't really count them. Orangutans are 97% vegan. So that knocks out most of your great apes species. And since they're the smartest, they should count more. Are you weighting this? You should be.

CARNIVOROUS SPECIES AND OMNIVOROUS SPECIES ARE SMARTER THAN HERBIVORES 98.5% OF THE TIME. (using our broad calculation)

You're theory really is kind of weak. And I don't think it was ranked correctly. Unless you think a crow is smarter than a horse?
 
Why don't we just get rid of all our technology and go back to the stone age too eh?



Sounds like its a fight of a primitives here.



Jesus people, nobody cares if you think you're superior to someone else.
 
Kelzie said:
Well, then we're going to have to take all of the dogs out of your list.
The DOMESTICATED dogs, not wild canines. There's about 40 other species that are not domesticated. Pay close attention to my posts if you want to understand them.

Kelzie said:
Bobcats, tigers and bears will eat you.
Not if they don't want to, and they are acting on territorial instincts. I've personally seen a bobcat kill a snake, and walk away and let it rot in the sun.

Kelzie said:
Well, we're going to have to take out the dogs. No natural selection and all. So that leaves 597. And I assume you don't believe that every single octopus is intelligent. Most likely half. Maybe. Many monkeys are herbivores. I'm not going to look at all 114 species, since it's your crazy theory, but be my guest. As I've already said, both gorillas and bonobos are herbivores, so you can't really count them. Orangutans are 97% vegan. So that knocks out most of your great apes species. And since they're the smartest, they should count more. Are you weighting this? You should be.

1) Everyone animal in the Dog family is domesticated? Are you insane? Coyotes and Jackals are far from domesticated.

2) You're making up weird things again. The Octopi family is on the list, and the other gains you get from stray herbivores in the mainly carnivorous families will get you very little.

3) You want me to go through every species to find out what percentage of the list of the world's smartest animals are non-herbivore?

For the love of moses...

I attemped it, but it is far too much... It would take a couple of hours, but I did find a few more herbavores, making it like 90% (of the smartest animals in the world are non-herbivores), which is a really good tendency. I might do it on saturday if you need more verification.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
The DOMESTICATED dogs, not wild canines. There's about 40 other species that are not domesticated. Pay close attention to my posts if you want to understand them.


Not if they don't want to, and they are acting on territorial instincts. I've personally seen a bobcat kill a snake, and walk away and let it rot in the sun.



1) Everyone animal in the Dog family is domesticated? Are you insane? Coyotes and Jackals are far from domesticated.

2) You're making up weird things again. The Octopi family is on the list, and the other gains you get from stray herbivores in the mainly carnivorous families will get you very little.

3) You want me to go through every species to find out what percentage of the list of the world's smartest animals are non-herbivore?

For the love of moses...

I attemped it, but it is far too much... It would take a couple of hours, but I did find a few more herbavores, making it like 90% (of the smartest animals in the world are non-herbivores), which is a really good tendency. I might do it on saturday if you need more verification.

The dog family? Are you joking? What, pray tell, is the DOG family? I can only assume you are talking about the Canidae Family. Regardless of what you were talking about, or think you were talking about, the website specifically links to domesticated dogs, when you click on dogs. Which is why we don't call wolves and coyotes dogs. :rofl
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_(disambiguation)
Dog may refer to:
Any species of carnivorous mammal in the family Canidae.
[ect...]
Sigh. For the sake of my sanity, just try to understand the simple parts at least. I'm going to have to ignore the stupid remarks from now on, it takes too much time to respond to them.

If all the other things on the list are common names of families, you'd think it would be pretty freaking obvious that "Dog" is referring to the common name of the Canine family.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_(disambiguation)

Sigh. For the sake of my sanity, just try to understand the simple parts at least. I'm going to have to ignore the stupid remarks from now on, it takes too much time to respond to them.

If all the other things on the list are common names of families, you'd think it would be pretty freaking obvious that "Dog" is referring to the common name of the Canine family.

Dude. This really shouldn't be this hard. It's your freakin source, after all. Go to the site where you found the most intelligent animals. Click on where it says "Dogs". It takes you directly to domestic dogs. Not the "dog family" :)lol: ). And "Dolphins and Whales" another group of animals on the list, are not a family. Unless you are trying to say there is a dolphin family along with a dog family? There is also not a raven or a crow family either. I really shouldn't have to explain your evidence to you.
 
Why do veggies and vegans push their lifestyle eating habits onto the rest of humanity? Why do they try so hard to make everyone else eat like them and deny that humans are omnivores? Its as if veggies are disturbed by the fact they're part of an omnivorous species that eats meat as well as vegetables and fruit. The human brain needs the nutrients found only in meat, so does the human blood, marrow and internal organs. Even though we could technically survive without meat and other foods if there was famine, we'll half starve ourselves of the things our bodies were made for. Without meat we become less stronger, physically weaker and thinner, and personlities will become quite dictatorial because they're compensating for the lack of meat in their bodies. The same would apply if we went totally without vegetables, fruit and other. If people choose to go without meat and vegetables then that's up to them but they shouldn't tell others what to do. Its scientific fact that human beings are omnivores.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
As for "parts of nature" Let's talk about all of the poisonous animals. Poisonous snakes don't intend to eat humans. I know, they are protecting themselves. That is not the motive stated though. How many sharks eat a whole person? What should we do if one species(non-human) is extincting another? Nature ends certain species. Humans are part of nature. Motives are irrelevant. We are doing fine without the dinasaurs. I am not advocating purposely extincting species. I just think that it is silly to use an extinction argument to promote veganism (Sounds like a cult from Star Trek). BTW our closest relative is the chimpanzee and it shares 97% of our DNA.

How many sharks eat a human who punched them in the face first? Sharks attack swimmers/surfers for no reason except that they are aggressive animals.
 
Ryuken said:
How many sharks eat a human who punched them in the face first? Sharks attack swimmers/surfers for no reason except that they are aggressive animals.

No, because the sharks instinctively think they've caught fish. When people enter the sea they're going to attract predators.
 
Kelzie said:
Cats are dumb.

I totally disagree! :x Its weird that most veggies think lowly of animals just because they lack the same intelligence as humans.
Cat's are very clever and they have their own form of intelligence IMO. Have you ever lived with one? People have no time for animals and they don't give them the same amount of respect and love they would to fellow humans.
 
I agree with you WinterSun-I think dogs and cats are very smart. People who don't appreciate them are just missing out on having a great companion. I have a dog, I love my dog, and I consider him part of my family.
 
WinterSun said:
Why do veggies and vegans push their lifestyle eating habits onto the rest of humanity? Why do they try so hard to make everyone else eat like them and deny that humans are omnivores? Its as if veggies are disturbed by the fact they're part of an omnivorous species that eats meat as well as vegetables and fruit. The human brain needs the nutrients found only in meat, so does the human blood, marrow and internal organs. Even though we could technically survive without meat and other foods if there was famine, we'll half starve ourselves of the things our bodies were made for. Without meat we become less stronger, physically weaker and thinner, and personlities will become quite dictatorial because they're compensating for the lack of meat in their bodies. The same would apply if we went totally without vegetables, fruit and other. If people choose to go without meat and vegetables then that's up to them but they shouldn't tell others what to do. Its scientific fact that human beings are omnivores.

Agreed. Amongst all that, Personally, I NEED the serotonin realease, when eating a blue rare steak (pull the horns off, wipe its arse and eat... kind-of -rare.)Then washed down with a JD and coke or an Alize and Courvoisier mix. Fantastalick! And it makes me all big and strong, too.
 
Kelzie said:
The dog family? Are you joking? What, pray tell, is the DOG family? I can only assume you are talking about the Canidae Family. Regardless of what you were talking about, or think you were talking about, the website specifically links to domesticated dogs, when you click on dogs. Which is why we don't call wolves and coyotes dogs. :rofl
I don't know what to tell you, I honestly think they you just aren't reading my posts.

From my source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_%28disambiguation%29 said:
Dog may refer to:

Any species of carnivorous mammal in the family Canidae.

The domesticated dog in particular.
The dog, a sign in Chinese astrology.
Dog, a character in the computer game Half-Life 2.
Dog Island, Florida, a barrier island in the Gulf of Mexico.

Some words have more than one meaning, and we must judge them by context. If all everything else on the list is a family, guess what "dog" means?
"Any species of carnivorous mammal in the family Canidae. "
The first one on the list, from "my" source.

PS, My roommate can't stop laughing at your posts :p
 
WinterSun said:
Why do veggies and vegans push their lifestyle eating habits onto the rest of humanity? Why do they try so hard to make everyone else eat like them and deny that humans are omnivores? Its as if veggies are disturbed by the fact they're part of an omnivorous species that eats meat as well as vegetables and fruit. The human brain needs the nutrients found only in meat, so does the human blood, marrow and internal organs. Even though we could technically survive without meat and other foods if there was famine, we'll half starve ourselves of the things our bodies were made for. Without meat we become less stronger, physically weaker and thinner, and personlities will become quite dictatorial because they're compensating for the lack of meat in their bodies. The same would apply if we went totally without vegetables, fruit and other. If people choose to go without meat and vegetables then that's up to them but they shouldn't tell others what to do. Its scientific fact that human beings are omnivores.

Seriously, this is so weird. Why would you come onto a thread that SPECIFICALLY says vegetarian/vegan and bitch that I'M pushing my habits on you? If you didn't want to read it, you shouldn't have clicked on it.

Do a little research. I run three miles a day and I eat no meat, eggs, or milk. Humans don't need it. It's a scientific fact. Every single medical association endorses a vegetarian/vegan diet. You think they'd do it if we needed meat?
 
WinterSun said:
I totally disagree! :x Its weird that most veggies think lowly of animals just because they lack the same intelligence as humans.
Cat's are very clever and they have their own form of intelligence IMO. Have you ever lived with one? People have no time for animals and they don't give them the same amount of respect and love they would to fellow humans.

And...what? I've had two cats. They're great creatures. And yeah, they lack intelligence that is measured according to human scales. So that makes them dumb. You seem to be the one judging them for it, not me. I love them despite their intelligence level.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
I don't know what to tell you, I honestly think they you just aren't reading my posts.

From my source:


Some words have more than one meaning, and we must judge them by context. If all everything else on the list is a family, guess what "dog" means?
"Any species of carnivorous mammal in the family Canidae. "
The first one on the list, from "my" source.

PS, My roommate can't stop laughing at your posts :p

Must you be so stubborn? The word specifically linked to the domestic dog. If they meant the Canidae family, they would have linked to it. And I thought I made it clear there is no such thing as a dolphin family? Actually, most of the list wasn't families.

PS. Your roommate huh? That is so gay. :roll: Why don't you just make up a fake degree next and refer to it like you're an expert?

PPS. My roommateS can't stop laughing at your posts. ;)
 
Kelzie said:
And...what? I've had two cats. They're great creatures. And yeah, they lack intelligence that is measured according to human scales. So that makes them dumb. You seem to be the one judging them for it, not me. I love them despite their intelligence level.

They are not, "dumb". They don't have the intelligence that we do in the way we do, a lot of it has to do with the fact they can't form words like we do and so they can't interact with us to exchange knowledge. But they can smell and hear better than we can, which means they do have useful qualities. You can't say that they are dumb just because they aren't on our level because in their own right they are smart and they are capable of surviving in their natural enviroment. If they were totally worthless and stupid, they would have extinct thousands of years ago.
 
George_Washington said:
They are not, "dumb". They don't have the intelligence that we do in the way we do, a lot of it has to do with the fact they can't form words like we do and so they can't interact with us to exchange knowledge. But they can smell and hear better than we can, which means they do have useful qualities. You can't say that they are dumb just because they aren't on our level because in their own right they are smart and they are capable of surviving in their natural enviroment. If they were totally worthless and stupid, they would have extinct thousands of years ago.

I never said they were worthless. They are not very intelligent on a scale that humans measure intelligence by. Sure their other senses are better than ours, no one is debating that. They are less intelligent than a lot of animals. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.
 
Kelzie said:
Must you be so stubborn? The word specifically linked to the domestic dog. If they meant the Canidae family, they would have linked to it. And I thought I made it clear there is no such thing as a dolphin family? Actually, most of the list wasn't families.
Rofl, fine ignore my posts.

Kelzie said:
PS. Your roommate huh? That is so gay. Why don't you just make up a fake degree next and refer to it like you're an expert?
PPS. My roommateS can't stop laughing at your posts.
Cute.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
Rofl, fine ignore my posts.


Cute.

Can we...call a truce or something? Cause we're not really debating anymore...so much as bickering. And while it's fun to play the bitch ever once and a while, it's getting old. Plus, certain *people* are trying to say that cats are intelligent and we just don't appreciate their obviously vastly superior mental abilities. And I know you don't agree with that.
 
galenrox said:
yeah dude, this has been ridiculous!

Yeah I know. Can you believe some people think cats are smart. Wackos out there, I tell ya. :screwy


:lol:
 
But they ARE smart in their own way. Intelligence is all relative. Just because there are animals out there that are smarter doesn't make them stupid. That would be like comparing two people and saying one is dumb because he or she can't understand differential equations.
 
George_Washington said:
But they ARE smart in their own way. Intelligence is all relative. Just because there are animals out there that are smarter doesn't make them stupid. That would be like comparing two people and saying one is dumb because he or she can't understand differential equations.

Intelligence is not relative. There are many ways to measure different types of intelligence.
 
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