Vegetarianism/Veganism

[Kelzie]

But I want to so bad, that I have to...

I want a Lexus RX 400h really, really bad. Doesn't mean I'll die if I don't get one. Or maybe I will.... :lol:

 

[HTColeman]

If one day I can afford a luxury car (and afford maintenence), I would die if I didn't have it. In the same way, I have to have meat, I might not die (assuming since you are still alive) but I would be the most miserable, bitter, 18 year old you have ever seen.

 

[Zebulon]

Oh yeah? Prove it. And just because we can eat meat, doesn't mean we were designed to.

Link from, of all things, the Vegetarian Resource Group

How's that?

I eat a balanced diet. I hardly consider that being very, VERY careful. I consider it healthy. And I am healthier than any omnivore I know.

*This link* goes over some of the issues you can run into. I'm honestly VERY surprised that you haven't heard of any of this. I'm not sure if you're just so strongly trying to debunk my argument that you won't mention it, or if you REALLY didn't do any research about the diet your on. Most vegans and vegetarians I know take this VERY seriously. I don't debate the health benefits, but I would also argue that, with a good, balanced diet, INCLUDING meat, that people can easily be just as healthy as you are.

However, since going vegetarian/vegan increases your life expectancy by an average of SEVEN years, and almost every single physician group has endorsed a vegetarian/vegan diet, I would say you're wrong.

Every single physician group has endorsed a vegetarian/vegan diet?!? REALLY??? Now THAT I'd need proof of, thank you very much. Harvard Medical soundly telling everyone that they should do that will be fine. Feel free to substitute another large, universally known and respected medical establishment as you wish.

Oh, and about the life expectancy, that's only due to the slowing of your metabolism, which can have... interesting side effect unless, again, you're VERY careful about regulating your intake of things. I could make people live 150 years by feeding them carefully designed pellets that resenble rabbit food in look, taste, and consistency. Do you want to do that?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here...you're talking about changing your species. I'm talking about a different diet, one that our species embraced before we invented tools. So what is your point?

My point? That just because you CAN do something, like fly everywhere, doesn't mean that it suddenly changes you into something your not, like a bird. Just because you eat only vegetables, that doesn't suddenly change humans into herbivores.

 

[Bro]

Hey,
The iron in beans is not 'heme iron'. Beans have a lot of iron, but it is absorbed extremely poorly by the human body. The best way to get iron is from the ion in blood (hemoglobin). Drinking pure blood would be the best way but we're humans not count dracula. So, the next best way is to get it from red meat (the blood in red meat). It is absorbed far more easily by the human body. Iron defficiency is an epidemic even in the 1st world. Omnivores have the best of both worlds. Btw, a pure vegetarian diet will not increase ones lifes expectancy by 7-8 yrs when comparing to a 'minor' meat eater. This is only true when one is comparing to most of the American population who eat tons of meat. I'm a 'minor' meat eater in that I may have some chicken wings once a week. If one is advocating a convenient, practical, balanced, and healthy diet, it is obvious that it is the minor meat eating omnivore diet. It is no less healthy than a purely vegetarian diet.

Being a medical student, I know a lot about the medical implications of many diets. Many physicians (if not all) recommend a vegetarian diet over a major meat eater diet. In fact, any sane physician would do this since the stats show that a diet high in meat is totally unhealthy at best. However, the majority of physicians simply do not recommend a vegetarian diet over a 'minor' meat diet. Studies have not shown that eating meat very occassionally has any dier consequences. Only studies on the general population that eats large quantities of meat have shown negative effects.

Back to the iron story. If a vegetarian were to have a severe wound they would obviously loose a lot of blood (iron loss in hemoglobin in blood). For a vegetarian to make up this lost iron, it is very very difficult. Iron is well conserved in the human body (unless there is a wound), but one must first get the iron via diet. I repeat, the best way to do this is by eating red meat. The iron will be replenished. To obtain full health benefits, one should then stop eating the red meat since red meat is simply not good for you. I only eat red meat to keep my iron levels constant (and because it tastes so juicy). Thus, I eat it very rarely. Omnivores have the best of both worlds, its quite simple.
Bro

 

[gfytt689]

Okay i lost a bet and have to be vegeterian for a week. so next week. ill tell you which way i prefer. If i prefer to eat meat or not.

 

[Kelzie]

Link from, of all things, the Vegetarian Resource Group

How's that?.

Big deal. It's one doctor. At the end of his article, he gives another doctor who believes that our ancestors were primarily vegetarian.

*This link* goes over some of the issues you can run into. I'm honestly VERY surprised that you haven't heard of any of this. I'm not sure if you're just so strongly trying to debunk my argument that you won't mention it, or if you REALLY didn't do any research about the diet your on. Most vegans and vegetarians I know take this VERY seriously. I don't debate the health benefits, but I would also argue that, with a good, balanced diet, INCLUDING meat, that people can easily be just as healthy as you are.

I don't even need to look at it. I know some of the problems junk food vegans run into. If you eat crap, what do you expect? Same goes for omnivores. However, I eat a balanced diet, try to get all my fruits and vegetables in for the day, and have one serving of soy, and one of beans. And I'm not deficient in anything.

Every single physician group has endorsed a vegetarian/vegan diet?!? REALLY??? Now THAT I'd need proof of, thank you very much. Harvard Medical soundly telling everyone that they should do that will be fine. Feel free to substitute another large, universally known and respected medical establishment as you wish.

Just a few that I have found: the Mayo Clinic, the American Heart Association, US Government (specifically, the doctors that devised the food pyramid), Cornell, the American Dietetic Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Liverpool John Moores University in England, American Cancer Society, National Cancer Institute, USDA, Dieticians of Canada, British Nutrition Foundation. I got bored looking. I'm sure there are more.

Oh, and about the life expectancy, that's only due to the slowing of your metabolism, which can have... interesting side effect unless, again, you're VERY careful about regulating your intake of things. I could make people live 150 years by feeding them carefully designed pellets that resenble rabbit food in look, taste, and consistency. Do you want to do that?

I have never read anything about a connection between veganism and a slow metabolism. Perhaps you are under the impression that we do not eat enough calories? If so, you are mistaken.

My point? That just because you CAN do something, like fly everywhere, doesn't mean that it suddenly changes you into something your not, like a bird. Just because you eat only vegetables, that doesn't suddenly change humans into herbivores.

Your analogy makes no sense. There are a lot of criteria that needs to be met before something can be classified as a bird. In fact, flying isn't even one of them. However, the classification of herbivore is "animal that only eats plants: an animal that feeds only or mainly on grass and other plants." I am an animal that eats only plants. I am an herbivore. You are an omnivore. Even though I believe that the human species was originally herbivores (again, how do you kill animals with no tools), a lot will have to happen for them to be herbivores again.

 

[Kelzie]

Hey,
The iron in beans is not 'heme iron'. Beans have a lot of iron, but it is absorbed extremely poorly by the human body. The best way to get iron is from the ion in blood (hemoglobin). Drinking pure blood would be the best way but we're humans not count dracula. So, the next best way is to get it from red meat (the blood in red meat). It is absorbed far more easily by the human body. Iron defficiency is an epidemic even in the 1st world. Omnivores have the best of both worlds. Btw, a pure vegetarian diet will not increase ones lifes expectancy by 7-8 yrs when comparing to a 'minor' meat eater. This is only true when one is comparing to most of the American population who eat tons of meat. I'm a 'minor' meat eater in that I may have some chicken wings once a week. If one is advocating a convenient, practical, balanced, and healthy diet, it is obvious that it is the minor meat eating omnivore diet. It is no less healthy than a purely vegetarian diet.

Being a medical student, I know a lot about the medical implications of many diets. Many physicians (if not all) recommend a vegetarian diet over a major meat eater diet. In fact, any sane physician would do this since the stats show that a diet high in meat is totally unhealthy at best. However, the majority of physicians simply do not recommend a vegetarian diet over a 'minor' meat diet. Studies have not shown that eating meat very occassionally has any dier consequences. Only studies on the general population that eats large quantities of meat have shown negative effects.

Back to the iron story. If a vegetarian were to have a severe wound they would obviously loose a lot of blood (iron loss in hemoglobin in blood). For a vegetarian to make up this lost iron, it is very very difficult. Iron is well conserved in the human body (unless there is a wound), but one must first get the iron via diet. I repeat, the best way to do this is by eating red meat. The iron will be replenished. To obtain full health benefits, one should then stop eating the red meat since red meat is simply not good for you. I only eat red meat to keep my iron levels constant (and because it tastes so juicy). Thus, I eat it very rarely. Omnivores have the best of both worlds, its quite simple.
Bro

I have a friend that's a med student. He always whines to me that they have no nutrition classes, and that's why he can't prove to me that vegetarianism is inferior to omnivorism. Where do you go to school?

Anyway, back to the bean story.

According to Reed Mangels, Ph.D.,R.D:

"Dried beans and dark green vegetables are especially good sources of iron, better on a per calorie basis than meat. Iron absorption is increased markedly by eating foods containing vitamin C along with foods containing iron. Vegetarians do not have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than do meat eaters."

He reached this conclusion after examining these studies/papers:

1. Anderson BM, Gibson RS, Sabry JH: The iron and zinc status of long-term vegetarian women. Am J Clin Nutr 34: 1042-1048,1981.

2. Latta D and Liebman M: Iron and zinc status of vegetarian and non-vegetarian males. Nutr Rep Int 30: 141-149, 1984.

3. Helman AD and Darnton-Hill I: Vitamin and iron status in new vegetarians. Am J Clin Nutr 45: 785-789, 1987.

4. Hallberg L: Bioavailability of dietary iron in man. Ann RevNutr 1: 123-147, 1981.

5. Food and Nutrition Board, National Research Council: Recommended Dietary Allowances, 10th ed. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1989


I have never consciously added foods with vitamin C in them to my meals. However, since I eat fruit with almost every meal, that would explain why I have no problem with iron. I stand by my claim. Eat a balanced diet, and veganism/vegetarianism is better for you than eating meat.

 

[Kelzie]

Okay i lost a bet and have to be vegeterian for a week. so next week. ill tell you which way i prefer. If i prefer to eat meat or not.

You should do it for two weeks. The first week's the worst.

 

[gfytt689]

i thaught one week was bad enough. lol. no im really an open minded person. buti dont want to do two weeks cause the day after the week is up its my uncle and cousins birthday.(yes on the same day) and they're having a barbeque and my uncle was a chef. and i honestly cant pass up this meat its way too good. but i find that life is better as a vegeterian i might not eat any meat. well maybe a bite. :mrgreen:

 

[gfytt689]

and why is the first week the worst?

 

[Kelzie]

and why is the first week the worst?

Cause you have no idea what's going on. I think I ate pringles and oreos the whole first week.

And your...system is getting used to all the fiber you are eating all of a sudden...let's just say you'll spend a lot of time in the bathroom.

 

[gfytt689]

Cause you have no idea what's going on. I think I ate pringles and oreos the whole first week.

And your...system is getting used to all the fiber you are eating all of a sudden...let's just say you'll spend a lot of time in the bathroom.

and you call this healthy. but i dont care. im not doing it to have fun.i want to see if i prefer eating milk or not. the only thing i need to get used to is soy. cause i had soy milk and i didnt like it at all. and i cant just not have it. if having food and drinks made of soy is what vegiterians and vegans do then thats what ill do.

and i have a question are you a vegeterian or vegan? ive been asuming vegan but i just want to make sure.

 

[Kelzie]

and you call this healthy. but i dont care. im not doing it to have fun.i want to see if i prefer eating milk or not. the only thing i need to get used to is soy. cause i had soy milk and i didnt like it at all. and i cant just not have it. if having food and drinks made of soy is what vegiterians and vegans do then thats what ill do.

and i have a question are you a vegeterian or vegan? ive been asuming vegan but i just want to make sure.

I don't call it healthy. I call it being a newbie. If you do a lot of research before you went veg., I'm sure you could avoid this "transition" phase, but I went cold turkey, out of the blue.

Yeah, soy milk takes getting used to. Seriously, try the vanilla for cereal and stuff. And the chocolate is good for drinking. The biggest problem is people expect it to taste like milk. And it doesn't. After a couple months, I was able to start using plain soy milk, because I was no longer expecting milk. It really doesn't taste bed, you just have to get used to it.

I'm a vegan.

 

[gfytt689]

after all this i dont really feel comfortable with this. but its only a week. and not one person would keep going if it was bad. and to tell you the truth this topic is the reason why i was willing to make the bet. and i actually held back a little while playing the game because i was curious to know how its like to be a vegeterian. and the person i made the bet with had it easy. all she had to do was eat a hamburger. and she is a vegeterian, but i had it harder. but whatever.

 

[Kelzie]

after all this i dont really feel comfortable with this. but its only a week. and not one person would keep going if it was bad. and to tell you the truth this topic is the reason why i was willing to make the bet. and i actually held back a little while playing the game because i was curious to know how its like to be a vegeterian. and the person i made the bet with had it easy. all she had to do was eat a hamburger. and she is a vegeterian, but i had it harder. but whatever.

After all what?

It's really not that hard. I promise.

 

[gfytt689]

i dont know why but im exited for tomorrow. i want to try be a vegeterian. and its getting late here so im going to sleep. i have all my meals tomorrow all planned out. lol. bye.

 

[HTColeman]

I don't call it healthy. I call it being a newbie. If you do a lot of research before you went veg., I'm sure you could avoid this "transition" phase, but I went cold turkey, out of the blue.

Yeah, soy milk takes getting used to. Seriously, try the vanilla for cereal and stuff. And the chocolate is good for drinking. The biggest problem is people expect it to taste like milk. And it doesn't. After a couple months, I was able to start using plain soy milk, because I was no longer expecting milk. It really doesn't taste bed, you just have to get used to it.

I'm a vegan.

My dad drinks soy milk b/c him and I are lactose intolerant, the vanilla soy is okay but it is definitly different. I just drink lactaid free milk. I have a queston, is being a vegetarian/vegan expensive, for all of the health foods?

 

[nkgupta80]

vegan can be expensive

 

[Kelzie]

My dad drinks soy milk b/c him and I are lactose intolerant, the vanilla soy is okay but it is definitly different. I just drink lactaid free milk. I have a queston, is being a vegetarian/vegan expensive, for all of the health foods?

I spend waayy less than I used to on food. Tofu's the only thing that can be expensive, but it's still cheaper than meat. Although really, that's only if you get the marinated kind.

And by the way, there's just been a new study finished on milk. They were looking into kids in the Philippines who were having a lot of liver cancer. It appears to have come from bad peanut butter, but the interesting thing is that the poorer kids weren't getting it, but the richer were. So they shipped some American doctors in to find out why, and they concluded it was a combination of a diet that consists of 15-20% protein (the average American diet does too), and casein, one of the proteins in milk, which turned the cancer on.

So they tested lab rats with a diet of casein protein (by the way, I have no problem with animal testing). Guaranteed, 100%, if you eat a similar percentage of casein protein in your diet, you WILL get cancer. Casein evidently turns on cancer cells. Of course, nobody drinks that much milk, but it seems like they're starting to think why the war on cancer is going so badly in the US. The doctor later studied China, which has an extremely low cancer rate, and coincidently (yeah right) a low milk consumption too.

 

[HTColeman]

Geez, just ruin everything for me.

 

[Kelzie]

Geez, just ruin everything for me.

Man, it's weird stuff. Did you read the example I gave? Think of a grown dog suckling off a giraffe. Makes as much sense as grown humans drinking from a cow. We are not calves. It is not meant for us. I'm not at all surprised to find all the bad things connected with it. Sorry to burst your bubble though. :lol:

 

[HTColeman]

That makes it sound so gross, but I am not going to drink my mother's milk.

 

[Zebulon]

Big deal. It's one doctor. At the end of his article, he gives another doctor who believes that our ancestors were primarily vegetarian.

I need to keep that in mind the next time I ask someone for evidence and they actually find some... "What? You found some evidence? Uh... Big deal! yeah, that's it!"

Oh, and our ACTUAL, biological ancestors, the chimpanzees, are ALSO OMNIVORES.

I don't even need to look at it. I know some of the problems junk food vegans run into. If you eat crap, what do you expect? Same goes for omnivores. However, I eat a balanced diet, try to get all my fruits and vegetables in for the day, and have one serving of soy, and one of beans. And I'm not deficient in anything.

Again with the brilliant retorts!! "What, MORE evidence? Won't even look at it." If you KNOW the problems they run into, why did you DENY there WERE any problems in a previous post?? Now I just think you're either backpedaling, or have no clue.

Just a few that I have found: the Mayo Clinic, the American Heart Association, US Government (specifically, the doctors that devised the food pyramid), Cornell, the American Dietetic Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Liverpool John Moores University in England, American Cancer Society, National Cancer Institute, USDA, Dieticians of Canada, British Nutrition Foundation. I got bored looking. I'm sure there are more.

You got any actual links to all these ringing endorsements that everyone on the planet should be a vege/vegan? Not that I'm going to bother to look at them, and I'll just say "Big deal", of course... :mrgreen:

I have never read anything about a connection between veganism and a slow metabolism. Perhaps you are under the impression that we do not eat enough calories? If so, you are mistaken.

Well, since you didn't bother to read my links, then no, you probably haven't read anything about slow metabolisms. And no, nothing was said about caloric intake by my argument. Nice attempt at redirect, though. I talked about slow metabolism, which, if you actually read things, you'd know about. Just because YOU don't read it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Your analogy makes no sense. There are a lot of criteria that needs to be met before something can be classified as a bird. In fact, flying isn't even one of them. However, the classification of herbivore is "animal that only eats plants: an animal that feeds only or mainly on grass and other plants." I am an animal that eats only plants. I am an herbivore. You are an omnivore. Even though I believe that the human species was originally herbivores (again, how do you kill animals with no tools), a lot will have to happen for them to be herbivores again.

You DO know, of course, that we can throw my whole analogy away and it doesn't suddenly make your shocking lack of information about your chosen lifestyle any better, right? I know this is your strongest "argument" to everything I posted, but expending all your arguments against what comes down to a turn of phrase on my part is pretty sad. To make you feel better, though, we can still argue that.

The classification of herbivore is NOT an animal that only eats plants, unless you're referencing a 3rd grade science book. What about biological adaptation? What about digestive tract form and function? What about mandibular adaptations? Just because you "eat veggies", you are NOT a herbivore.

Oh, and "how do you kill animals with no tools"??? You mean you don't know about every other carnivorous/omnivorous animal on the planet that does it without tools? Did tigers suddenly start using spears? Are wolves using guns now?

Sheesh!

 

[Kelzie]

I need to keep that in mind the next time I ask someone for evidence and they actually find some... "What? You found some evidence? Uh... Big deal! yeah, that's it!"

You didn't find some evidence. You found A opinion. And at the end of this opinion, the Dr. even pointed out that there were other doctors with a different opinion.

Oh, and our ACTUAL, biological ancestors, the chimpanzees, are ALSO OMNIVORES.

As someone else had so correctly pointed out to me, chimps aren't our ancestors. They're more like our cousins. This website details the info Jane Goodall has collected. Of the time chimps spend obtaining food, only 1.4% of it is dedicated to getting meat. And since plants don't fight back, really the vast majority of their food intake is vegetarian. Actually, the site says it better than I can:

"So, given the vanishingly small amount of flesh actually consumed in the average chimp diet, the lack of significant nutritional input supplied by sucking the juice and not swallowing the meat itself, the fact that abundant amounts of proteins and fats are much more readily available in nuts/seeds, the presence of undigested meat in feces, the overwhelming evidence is that chimp flesh-eating is merely a SOCIAL pathology, as it is in the human. The argument that chimp flesh-eating implies that humans "should" or have a "need" for flesh is seen to be totally absurd, and absolutely insupportable by the facts."

Again with the brilliant retorts!! "What, MORE evidence? Won't even look at it." If you KNOW the problems they run into, why did you DENY there WERE any problems in a previous post?? Now I just think you're either backpedaling, or have no clue.

Your opinion of brilliant retorts is exceedingly low. I suggest you read a couple of teach's post if you want to find a good retort. Mine was merely a response. Of course a vegetarian diet can be unhealthy, just like an omnivorous one can be. If you eat nothing but white rice and margarine, you will get sick. I have never denied that unhealthy eating leads to problems. However, if a person does a little research before jumping into veganism, they will have no problem. The key is a balanced diet, as I have said before.

You got any actual links to all these ringing endorsements that everyone on the planet should be a vege/vegan? Not that I'm going to bother to look at them, and I'll just say "Big deal", of course... :mrgreen:.

If your not going to bother looking, why would I bother wasting my time to find them again? And I didn't bother looking at ONE of your sites because I already knew what it would say: "if vegans eat a unhealthy diet, they will be unhealthy".

But since I love being right:

Mayo Clinic
the American Heart Association
Cornell
the American Dietetic Association
American Academy of Pediatrics
Stanford University School of Medicine
Liverpool John Moores University in England
American Cancer Society
National Cancer Institute
USDA
Dieticians of Canada
British Nutrition Foundation

Well, since you didn't bother to read my links, then no, you probably haven't read anything about slow metabolisms. And no, nothing was said about caloric intake by my argument. Nice attempt at redirect, though. I talked about slow metabolism, which, if you actually read things, you'd know about. Just because YOU don't read it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Unless you, yourself, are at the forefront of metabolism research, I believe nothing you say. Give me ONE sorce proving a connection between veganism and low metabolism. Just one. There are none. I've looked. Making stuff up doesn't help your argument any.

You DO know, of course, that we can throw my whole analogy away and it doesn't suddenly make your shocking lack of information about your chosen lifestyle any better, right? I know this is your strongest "argument" to everything I posted, but expending all your arguments against what comes down to a turn of phrase on my part is pretty sad. To make you feel better, though, we can still argue that.

Your analogy sucked and made no sense. That's why I threw it away. That is hardly the strongest point in my argument, it just shows that you are grasping at straws. I'm sorry, expending all my arguments on your nonsensical analogy? As if I only have a certain amount of argumentative points? And between the two of us, who do you think has done more research into a vegan lifestyle? I can promise that the answer is not you.

The classification of herbivore is NOT an animal that only eats plants, unless you're referencing a 3rd grade science book. What about biological adaptation? What about digestive tract form and function? What about mandibular adaptations? Just because you "eat veggies", you are NOT a herbivore.

Our digestive tract is adapted to eat plants. Our stomach acid is 20 times weaker than animals that eat meat. In fact, the only other type of creature that has stomach acid so weak is...herbivores! Our teeth our adapted to eat plants, not tear apart raw meat. Just because you eat meat doesn't mean you are an omnivore.

Oh, and "how do you kill animals with no tools"??? You mean you don't know about every other carnivorous/omnivorous animal on the planet that does it without tools? Did tigers suddenly start using spears? Are wolves using guns now?

Sheesh!

As I have posted before. If you can chase a deer down, rip it's throat out with your teeth, shred it's hide with your claws, and eat it's still warm flesh raw, than I will believe that you are meant to eat meat. Good luck.

 

[Kelzie]

i dont know why but im exited for tomorrow. i want to try be a vegeterian. and its getting late here so im going to sleep. i have all my meals tomorrow all planned out. lol. bye.

How'd the first day go? Hey are you trying veganism or vegetarianism?