Vegetarianism/Veganism

[TurtleDude]

No, I haven't heard of her.

But, PETA's nuts. I give em weird looks whenever they try to get me to sign something. I'm not that weird.

They funnel money to the ALF which Janet Reno called the most dangerous domestic terrorist group in the USA. IN cincinnati, the circus comes to town in early spring. For a couple years a girl who is cute as she is stupid, is placed in a small cage wearing nothing but tiger stripes, a bikini bottom and a placard across her chest saying THE CIRCUS EXPLOITS TIGERS. Its usually about 40 degrees. The crowds come to stare at her, not support FITA and a couple years ago, couple smart frat boys came with a sign saying

PETA EXPLOITS WOMEN'S NAKED BODIES

 

[-Demosthenes-]

Any diet can be abused. I have never said otherwise.

Yet the implication is there.

 

[Kelzie]

Yet the implication is there.

Only if you're imagining it.

 

[George_Washington]

Only if you're imagining it.

But you've admitted your bias towards vegetables so there is a bias there.

I don't understand why vegans don't want to eat fish. Fish is very healthy, just as healthy as vegetables in a lot of ways. Plus fish tastes 1,000,000 times better than vegetables. :smile:

 

[George_Washington]

depends on what quality there, cause I'll eat 20 cans of Walmart canned green beans before I even look at another can of Walmart canned Salmon, but if you're talking about pacific northwest fish, like Washington, Canada, and Alaska, hell yeah!

Yeah sometimes fish out of the can can really suck. I like raw fish and seaweed the best like sushi but I also love lobster, shrimp, crab, etc. I like just about anything that comes from the sea.

 

[Kelzie]

But you've admitted your bias towards vegetables so there is a bias there.

I don't understand why vegans don't want to eat fish. Fish is very healthy, just as healthy as vegetables in a lot of ways. Plus fish tastes 1,000,000 times better than vegetables. :smile:

I will never say that a vegan diet cannot be screwed up as bad as an omnivore diet. But I do believe, that if you do it right, a vegan diet is more healthy than an omnivorous one.

With the possible exception of fish. There are a couple studies out right now that say that eating fish is healthier than not eating fish. Of course you have to compare that to all the scary crap that's in fish right not (hard metals, cow brains that they can't feed to cows anymore, etc). So the verdict is still out on fish as far as I'm concerned. I'm a reasonable vegan. I'm not going to sacrifice my health for fish if it turns out they are better for you than not eating them.

 

[George_Washington]

Yeah that's cool. Also Kelzie, I will say that I do like SOME vegetables depending on how they are cooked and stuff. I like corn and I really do like fried okra.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

I will never say that a vegan diet cannot be screwed up as bad as an omnivore diet. But I do believe, that if you do it right, a vegan diet is more healthy than an omnivorous one.

With the possible exception of fish. There are a couple studies out right now that say that eating fish is healthier than not eating fish. Of course you have to compare that to all the scary crap that's in fish right not (hard metals, cow brains that they can't feed to cows anymore, etc). So the verdict is still out on fish as far as I'm concerned. I'm a reasonable vegan. I'm not going to sacrifice my health for fish if it turns out they are better for you than not eating them.

I am curious as to how a vegan diet is considered "natural," however.

 

[Kelzie]

I am curious as to how a vegan diet is considered "natural," however.

How is it not?

 

[-Demosthenes-]

How is it not?

How is it? To get the necessary nutrients you have to eat different artificially fortified grain products, artificially created vitamins, or large amounts of a certain plant that has no other use for human consumption.

Animals eat other animals... Are not animals natural? Or are they conveniently left out...

The want for less pain for animals is commendable (although the moral superiority complex is tiring) but to claim that is more natural, more healthy for you seems unfounded, and then all you can say is: "How is it not?"

A vegan diet can be just as healthy as a moderate meat diet (although slightly less practical). Most vegans don't even argue this point. There is no aspect of a vegan diet that cannot be shared with a non-vegan diet (except the obvious "non-vegan" part). What's debatable about Veganism lies in the moral aspect, not the healthful or "natural" one.

 

[Kelzie]

How is it? To get the necessary nutrients you have to eat different artificially fortified grain products, artificially created vitamins, or large amounts of a certain plant that has no other use for human consumption.

Animals eat other animals... Are not animals natural? Or are they conveniently left out...

The want for less pain for animals is commendable (although the moral superiority complex is tiring) but to claim that is more natural, more healthy for you seems unfounded, and then all you can say is: "How is it not?"

A vegan diet can be just as healthy as a moderate meat diet (although slightly less practical). Most vegans don't even argue this point. There is no aspect of a vegan diet that cannot be shared with a non-vegan diet (except the obvious "non-vegan" part). What's debatable about Veganism lies in the moral aspect, not the healthful or "natural" one.

I was actually looking for proof to back up your statement. You know, to debate?

There is a single vitamin that vegans cannot get from their diet: B12. Since humans used to get this drinking from streams, I'd say that processed water is the unnatural thing, not the diet. Not that I have a problem with processed water, mind you.

And you get B12 from a vitamin too.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

I was actually looking for proof to back up your statement. You know, to debate?

I said: "I am curious as to how a vegan diet is considered "natural," however."
How do I present evidence for this?

There is a single vitamin that vegans cannot get from their diet: B12.

Yes, nothing that they cannot get from their diet of artificially enriched grain products and large amounts of otherwise useless plants, except B12.

 

[Kelzie]

I said: "I am curious as to how a vegan diet is considered "natural," however."
How do I present evidence for this?


Yes, nothing that they cannot get from their diet of artificially enriched grain products and large amounts of otherwise useless plants, except B12.

So...you've got nothing then.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

So...you've got nothing then.

If a diet of artificially enriched grain products and large amounts of otherwise useless plants is "natural," then something is terribly wrong with nature.

 

[Kelzie]

If a diet of artificially enriched grain products and large amounts of otherwise useless plants is "natural," then something is terribly wrong with nature.

Did you even read my last post? B12 in streams? Processed water? No? And your B12 is artificially enriched too.

Is this the only thread you post in? I'd hate to think I'm stealing all your sunshine away from the other members.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

Did you even read my last post? B12 in streams? Processed water? No? And your B12 is artificially enriched too.

Source? I can find nothing on the web that says anything about B12 in streams, a common fact sheet gives you:

The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found no significant B12. ...

Nothing about it being in streams, although I can imagine how it could get into streams...

Bacteria present in the large intestine are able to synthesise B12. In the past, it has been thought that the B12 produced by these colonic bacteria could be absorbed and utilised by humans. However, the bacteria produce B12 too far down the intestine for absorption to occur, B12 not being absorbed through the colon lining.

Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries.

And specifically for vegetarians or vegans:

Good sources of vitamin B12 for vegetarians are dairy products or free-range eggs. ½ pint of milk (full fat or semi skimmed) contains 1.2 µg. A slice of vegetarian cheddar cheese (40g) contains 0.5 µg. A boiled egg contains 0.7 µg. Fermentation in the manufacture of yoghurt destroys much of the B12 present. Boiling milk can also destroy much of the B12.

Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals.

Vegetarians can eat eggs and milk (correct?) so they can get B12, but alas there is no source that does not involve artificially fortified processed products (artificially, mind you) or vitamins (also artificial, very artificial) for vegans.

What "nature" is might be defined by what nature does, nature's animals do not eat artificially processed products nor do they take a multi-vitamin every day, therefore it is the logical conclusion is that Veganism is not only artificial, but about as far removed from nature, in terms of diet, that you can get without rocks.

From a vegan website:

Vitamin B12, which is produced by bacteria, is needed in microscopic amounts and is essential for the nervous system and all cell growth. Deficiency can lead to pernicious anaemia, spinal cord degeneration and death as well as to dangerously high homocysteine levels, which can lead to heart attack. While most cases of B12 deficiency are caused by malabsorption by the individual, not by a deficient diet, vegans, children, pregnant and lactating women should get a regular supply of B12 from specially fortified foods, including soy milk and Sanitarium Marmite. Read labels to be sure. B12 tablets (derived from non-animal sources) are available as a supplement. Vegetarians who eat dairy products and eggs also obtain B12 from those sources. (See more on vitamin B12 on this site).

It's either eggs and milk, or artificially processed B12 fortified products.

So, here are the symptoms of a "natural" vegan:

Signs, symptoms, and health problems associated with vitamin B12 deficiency
Characteristic signs, symptoms, and health problems associated with B12 deficiency include anemia, fatigue, weakness, constipation, loss of appetite, and weight loss [1,3,12].
Deficiency also can lead to neurological changes such as numbness and tingling in the hands and feet [7,13].
Additional symptoms of B12 deficiency are difficulty in maintaining balance, depression, confusion, dementia, poor memory, and soreness of the mouth or tongue [14].
Signs of vitamin B12 deficiency in infancy include failure to thrive, movement disorders, delayed development, and megaloblastic anemia [15].

Here are all of the foods that contain B12:

[Food, Micrograms (μg) per serving, percent daily value]
Mollusks, clam, mixed species, cooked, 3 ounces 84.1 1400
Liver, beef, braised, 1 slice 47.9 780
Fortified breakfast cereals, (100%) fortified), ¾ cup 6.0 100
Trout, rainbow, wild, cooked, 3 ounces 5.4 90
Salmon, sockeye, cooked, 3 ounces 4.9 80
Trout, rainbow, farmed, cooked, 3 ounces 4.2 50
Beef, top sirloin, lean, choice, broiled, 3 ounces 2.4 40
Fast Food, Cheeseburger, regular, double patty & bun, 1 sandwich 1.9 30
Fast Food, Taco, 1 large 1.6 25
Fortified breakfast cereals (25% fortified), ¾ cup 1.5 25
Yogurt, plain, skim, with 13 grams protein per cup, 1 cup 1.4 25
Haddock, cooked, 3 ounces 1.2 20
Clams, breaded & fried, ¾ cup 1.1 20
Tuna, white, canned in water, drained solids, 3 ounces 1.0 15
Milk, 1 cup 0.9 15
Pork, cured, ham, lean only, canned, roasted, 3 ounces 0.6 10
Egg, whole, hard boiled, 1 0.6 10
American pasteurized cheese food, 1 ounces 0.3 6
Chicken, breast, meat only, roasted, ½ breast 0.3 6

Any vegan foods?

 

[Kelzie]

Not that I'm saying you didn't look. Cause I'm sure you did. You just didn't look hard enough.

"Because modern-day vegans and vegetarians do not consume vitamin B12 from our environment as did our ancestors (on the surface of root vegetables, drinking water from free-flowing streams and wells, etc.), people nourishing themselves on exclusively plant-based foods would be wise to consume vitamin B12-enriched foods, or some food or supplement containing at least 5 to 10 micrograms (mcg.) of vitamin B12 one to two times weekly."

http://www.earthsave.org/newsletters/dinshah.htm

 

[-Demosthenes-]

Upon further study (and a freaking crap load of reading) it seems to be the soil that carries the bacteria that makes the B12, so it makes sense that it would be associated with ground water, streams, and the surfaces of roots. So, it seems, in this respect, you are correct, it is possible to get B12 making bacteria from natural sources (although it does involve eating dirt).

It seems that there is a supplement of sorts called "primal defense." The actual substance is a bacterial colony cultivated in dirt, it is ingested (dirt and all) for those deficient of B12.