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Vegetarianism/Veganism

FiremanRyan

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Kelzie said:
I didn't say I eat nothing but brown rice.

no, you said a person could get all the protein they need from eating brown rice which isnt true.


Kelzie said:
Omegas 3 and 6 are easy, they are in most vegetable oils, which is in almost everything I eat.

thats true, vegetable oils contain alpa-linoleic acid which is based from Omega 3 and 6 but it does not contain EPA or DHA fatty acids that are essential and found only in Omega 3 from fish.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Hope you're enjoying your debate.
 

Kelzie

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FiremanRyan said:
i partly mis-worded what i said. B12 IS a bacteria which is naturally synthesized by animals, but plants are not sourses of it. this is why they have to be fortified with it.

B12 is not a bacteria. B12 is a vitamin. B12 can be synthesized by bacteria, among other things, but not by animals. Since animals can not synthesize B12, they get it from the bacteria. I see no difference in getting it from animals who have gotten it from the bacteria, and just getting it from the bacteria, which is what vitamins do (well,the vegan one's anyway)

FiremanRyan said:
thats true, vegetable oils contain alpa-linoleic acid which is based from Omega 3 and 6 but it does not contain EPA or DHA fatty acids that are essential and found only in Omega 3 from fish.

"An alternative approach would be to consume increased amounts of a chemically related fat known as alpha-linolenic acid (alpha-LA). alpha-LA is a naturally occurring fat found in abundance in leaves and seeds such as rape (12% alpha-LA) and flax (56% alpha-LA) that can be converted in the body to LC n-3 PUFA" from here

In other words, Alpha-linolenic Acid is converted in the body to EPA and DHA.
 

FiremanRyan

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Kelzie said:
B12 is not a bacteria. B12 is a vitamin. B12 can be synthesized by bacteria, among other things, but not by animals. Since animals can not synthesize B12, they get it from the bacteria. I see no difference in getting it from animals who have gotten it from the bacteria, and just getting it from the bacteria, which is what vitamins do (well,the vegan one's anyway)

maybe im not understanding what you're trying to say. heres the basis of my argument:

Vitamin B12 is found in animal products (whether its naturally there or synthesized there from something else, it doesnt matter at this point). usable sources of B12 are NOT found anywhere in the plant world. this is why foods like cereals dont have B12 in them naturally, its not like youre eating the bacteria which will be made into B12 in your body. these foods must be fortified with B12 isolate, or you would never get it from them.
 

Kelzie

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I'm saying that you and I get our B12 from the same source: bacteria. The only difference is that you have a steak for a middle man.
 

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Kelzie said:
I'm saying that you and I get our B12 from the same source: bacteria. The only difference is that you have a steak for a middle man.


This is what you get for being a minority here :rofl

I'd like to ask you, do Vegans eat Fish?
 

Kelzie

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Arch Enemy said:
This is what you get for being a minority here :rofl

I'd like to ask you, do Vegans eat Fish?

I am comfortable with my minority status. ;) Vegans don't. Neither do vegetarian. Unless they're cheaters. Or unless fish have started growing on trees...There's a word for it. Piscutarion or something weird like that.
 

FiremanRyan

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i think theyre called Pesco-Vegetarians. its supposed to be the healthiest diet anyone could be on.
 

Arch Enemy

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That's what I was getting at.

Obviously true vegans aren't the healthiest people on the planet.. so alot of them (the ones I know) are Hippocrates!

Healthiest people on the planet?

Japanese people on the Island of Okinawa. They usually have a full-time Job at the age of 100.
 

Kelzie

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Arch Enemy said:
That's what I was getting at.

Obviously true vegans aren't the healthiest people on the planet.. so alot of them (the ones I know) are Hippocrates!

Healthiest people on the planet?

Japanese people on the Island of Okinawa. They usually have a full-time Job at the age of 100.

Obviously? How is that obvious? And even if they aren't the healthiest, how does that make them hypocrites?
 

Simon W. Moon

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Kelzie said:
Obviously? How is that obvious? And even if they aren't the healthiest, how does that make them hypocrites?
He said Hippocrates. He even capitalized it.
Why he said it, I don't know.
 

Kelzie

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Simon W. Moon said:
He said Hippocrates. He even capitalized it.
Why he said it, I don't know.

:sigh: I noticed. I was thinking it might be a typo. A capitilized typo...probably not huh. :slapme: Wasn't Hippocrates a geometrist...geometer...guy who dealt with geometry?
 

Arch Enemy

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Kelzie said:
Obviously? How is that obvious? And even if they aren't the healthiest, how does that make them hypocrites?

I'm sorry that I seem so stereotypical, but the only Vegans that I personally know are all snobby and tell me how the way the eat is the best for them. That what I'm doing is wrong, what irritates me, is they do this every damn time.. it's one of those situations where you want to dropkick them.
 

Kelzie

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Arch Enemy said:
I'm sorry that I seem so stereotypical, but the only Vegans that I personally know are all snobby and tell me how the way the eat is the best for them. That what I'm doing is wrong, what irritates me, is they do this every damn time.. it's one of those situations where you want to dropkick them.

I here ya. Trust me. And what's worse is every time you bring up a good point (ie. scallops...it's just a muscle, no central nervous system, what's wrong with eating it) they just respond with "well if I ate it, I wouldn't be a vegan". And the problem is...
 

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I think it's cool if people want to live like that. There are really very few veggies I like, so I would probably die of malnutrition.

I would just like to point out that even in the animal world, the lines can become blurred. Dogs and cats will regularly snack on plants. One of my horses enjoys hamburgers and dog food. In addition, there have been reported cases of horses eating road kill and even a few cases of horses killing and eating smaller animals like goats (I know it sounds hard to believe but it was published in a well respected equine publication). Pigs, which people generally regard as herbivores will most definitely eat meat if given the chance.
 

akyron

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Kelzie said:
And then, there's the fact that gorillas, well all great apes, which are our closest animal ancestors are 99% vegan.

Gorillas get old at 35. The oldest known reached the decrepit age of 53.
Ill take a steak every once in a while.
Thanks.
 

Kelzie

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Fu_chick said:
I think it's cool if people want to live like that. There are really very few veggies I like, so I would probably die of malnutrition.

I would just like to point out that even in the animal world, the lines can become blurred. Dogs and cats will regularly snack on plants. One of my horses enjoys hamburgers and dog food. In addition, there have been reported cases of horses eating road kill and even a few cases of horses killing and eating smaller animals like goats (I know it sounds hard to believe but it was published in a well respected equine publication). Pigs, which people generally regard as herbivores will most definitely eat meat if given the chance.

Same with me when I first started. :mrgreen: God I hated mushrooms. But after forcing myself to eat them, I discovered it was mostly just from hating them when I was younger (okay, I still hate shiitakes).

Pigs and dogs are omnivores, so them eating plants doesn't surprise me. Huh...well I wasn't aware (guess you learn something new everyday), but according to this lady, "Our feline friends are classified as true carnivores because they must consume meat in order to survive...dogs are classified as omnivores. They can survive on a diet of either plant or animal origin if it is balanced and diverse. "

I don't know about this definition...every other one I've found says omnivores eat both meat and plants. But I suppose if she's right, humans can't be omnivores, because we can't survive off just meat. Which is why I think she has perhaps mispoken, because I know some vegans (myself included) who would jump on it in a second.

Anyway, back to horses and cats. I am not saying that humans can't eat meat. Certainly they can. Just like horses can eat meat, and cats can eat plants. However there is no question that cats have digestive tracts and characteristics more suitable towards eating meats, while horses are more suited to eating plants. Just like humans are more suited to eating plants (intestinal length aside anyway :lol: ).
 

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I think it's wonderful if people are vegetarian, or better yet, vegan! I truly admire you vegan folks! (I am a vegetarian, slowly working up towards vegan status.. and actually, if you had any tips, I would greatly appreciate it. I know this is supposed to be a debate, but seriously, if you have any helpful hints on veganizing, I'd love to hear them!) I do have a question though: why give up honey? I know that vegans do not eat honey or use beeswax materials, but I have not found a case of bee abuse or cruelty. Perhaps you could help me out there as well?

I personally can not bring myself to eat meat or drink milk. (And I don't really like eggs either) However, I have nothing against meat-eaters, and I totally understand where you guys are coming from. The benefits I see of being a vegetarian are: feeling healthier, conserving water and other resources, causing less animal cruelty (of course this one all depends on your own viewpoints), less workers' rights violations in the slaughterhouse and fast food restaurants, cleaner air, less hormones, less chance of weird diseases, I personally feel stronger and cleaner, saving the rainforest, I also feel that it is more fair, and, like the Buddhists say, feeling and being more compassionate. To me it just seems like it's better for Mother Earth.

I'm curious to hear from other vegetarians why they went vegetarian. Anyone care to share?

Oh - and one last thing: I have a killer vegan cookie recipe if anyone wants it. Of course, I can't take credit for them... someone else published the recipe a long time ago. You can't even tell these babies are vegan. I made them for a bunch of my friends (all omnivores) and they all loved them!
 

Kelzie

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akyron said:
Gorillas get old at 35. The oldest known reached the decrepit age of 53.
Ill take a steak every once in a while.
Thanks.

Huh really. Well, here's some news from our own species. After WWII, and a fascinating phenomena with a little country called Denmark (involving a forced switch to vegetarianism and a 34% reduction of the mortality rate during the war), scientists started looking at diets in correlation to longevity. The Eskimos, Laplanders, Greenlanders, and the Russian Kurgi tribe stood out as populations with the highest animal consumption in the world. And with the lowest life expactancy. Around 30 years actually. And as you might expect (since I obviously wouldn't be telling you something negative to my argument), the cultures with the longest lifespans were the Vilcambas, the Abkhasians, and the Hunzas. These groups are 98.5% vegan. As the researchers said: "They work and play at 80 and beyond; most of those who reach their 100th birthday continue to be active." (from Robin Hur, in his book Food Reform)

So you have your steak by all means. Join your friends the eskimo. Who, by the way, live as long as gorillas.
 

Kelzie

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loverofpeace said:
I think it's wonderful if people are vegetarian, or better yet, vegan! I truly admire you vegan folks! (I am a vegetarian, slowly working up towards vegan status.. and actually, if you had any tips, I would greatly appreciate it. I know this is supposed to be a debate, but seriously, if you have any helpful hints on veganizing, I'd love to hear them!) I do have a question though: why give up honey? I know that vegans do not eat honey or use beeswax materials, but I have not found a case of bee abuse or cruelty. Perhaps you could help me out there as well?

I personally can not bring myself to eat meat or drink milk. (And I don't really like eggs either) However, I have nothing against meat-eaters, and I totally understand where you guys are coming from. The benefits I see of being a vegetarian are: feeling healthier, conserving water and other resources, causing less animal cruelty (of course this one all depends on your own viewpoints), less workers' rights violations in the slaughterhouse and fast food restaurants, cleaner air, less hormones, less chance of weird diseases, I personally feel stronger and cleaner, saving the rainforest, I also feel that it is more fair, and, like the Buddhists say, feeling and being more compassionate. To me it just seems like it's better for Mother Earth.

I'm curious to hear from other vegetarians why they went vegetarian. Anyone care to share?

Oh - and one last thing: I have a killer vegan cookie recipe if anyone wants it. Of course, I can't take credit for them... someone else published the recipe a long time ago. You can't even tell these babies are vegan. I made them for a bunch of my friends (all omnivores) and they all loved them!

I would love to help you out to become a vegan! Is there anything in particular you think you will have a problem with (since you don't drink milk or like eggs)? Umm...actually about the honey. I eat it anyway. I squish spiders on sight (well, in my room...they're fine in my garden). And the worst I could find that happens to bees is occasionally a farmer will smoke the hive and kill them. And I figure if a vegan book has to use the word occasionally, it happens once in a blue moon. And I am always interested in cookie recipes. :mrgreen:
 

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Kelzie said:
I would love to help you out to become a vegan! Is there anything in particular you think you will have a problem with (since you don't drink milk or like eggs)? Umm...actually about the honey. I eat it anyway. I squish spiders on sight (well, in my room...they're fine in my garden). And the worst I could find that happens to bees is occasionally a farmer will smoke the hive and kill them. And I figure if a vegan book has to use the word occasionally, it happens once in a blue moon. And I am always interested in cookie recipes. :mrgreen:

This post will be kinda long (due to the inclusion of a cookie recipe) :2razz:

My problem is mostly just cooking things without eggs. I don't eat them plain.. but cooking becomes hard work. I heard you could subsitute a banana for eggs in cakes and stuff... I don't know, what do you do? And butter too, that's a problem. Do you just buy special vegan butter? (I also really like chocolate...)

It's good to hear your insight. (I like honey too)

Oh, here's the cookie recipe. I hope you like it!

Vegan No-Bake Cookies

Mix in a large bowl:

1 cup sugar
½ cup soymilk (plain works best)
1 Tablespoon vanilla
1 teaspoon coconut extract (I didn’t actually use this, and they came out just fine)
¾ cup peanut butter (I prefer crunchy)
3 cups quick oats
Salt (but just a little!)
1 cup chocolate chips (make sure they’re vegan!)
½ cup coconut flakes

Then:

Get ½ cup of margarine or vegan butter and melt it on medium heat. Then add 3 Tablespoons of cocoa. Remember to stir so it doesn’t burn! Bring to a rolling boil. Remove heat and stir in 1 cup of sugar. Combine with the ingredients in the large bowl.

Get a baking sheet with foil and put cookies on the sheet. (My friend insists on scooping them out with an ice cream scooper and flattening them with the back of the scooper – the Martha Stewart way) Put the cookies in the freezer for a few minutes, and then put them in the fridge. Then you can eat them! (And I swear, nobody notices they’re vegan)

Oh man, they're so dang good. But I warn you: they're rich. And do you have any favorite vegan recipes?

Thanks a lot!
 

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Kelzie:

(I forgot to put this in my last post)

That's awesome that you have a garden!
 

Kelzie

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loverofpeace said:
This post will be kinda long (due to the inclusion of a cookie recipe) :2razz:

My problem is mostly just cooking things without eggs. I don't eat them plain.. but cooking becomes hard work. I heard you could subsitute a banana for eggs in cakes and stuff... I don't know, what do you do? And butter too, that's a problem. Do you just buy special vegan butter? (I also really like chocolate...)

Ah. Simple problems. I was hoping you weren't going to say you have a burning desire for cheese. Although, if you do, my solution is to not eat cheese for 6 months (nasty stuff anyway, very bad for you), and then try vegan cheese (watch out for casein, look for it at health food stores or co-ops). Don't try it before because you will inevitably compare it to real cheese, which it tastes nothing like. It's still good, just not cheese. Anyway the egg problem. Very easy. There's this stuff called egg replacer. Does whatever-it-is eggs do in recipes (helps it rise? I dunno). Again, try health food stores, it's sold in a box. Or if you can't find it, here's a link to buy it online. Can't make omlets with it 'cause it just does the chemical stuff, but tofu omlets are better anyway :lol: . Vegan margarine. Fantastic stuff called Earth Balance. Actually everyone should use it. No hydrogenated oils or trans fatty acids. Make sure that's the only one you get! Some of the others are really scary. I tried one with the consistency of rubber :shock: . Anyway, I buy it at my regular grocery store, but if you can't find it, a health food store will have it. And chocolate. Which would be vegan if they didn't add milk to it. Semisweet chocolate chips are usually okay (they say it is made on machines that processed dairy, but eh...I cut meat at one point with my knives). There also a great brand called Green & Blacks that makes great organic chocolate. Not all of it's vegan, but my favorite is Maya Gold. Anyway, health food store again, or here. Hope this helps. And thanks for the cookie recipe. I'm trying to convert my little brother and sister (already switched my mom, uncle, and another sister), and I figure if I can convince them that they can still eat cookies, it's in the bag

loverofpeace said:
That's awesome that you have a garden!

Yeah. Sometimes. Damn weeds. And rabbits. And living in an arid environment which means I have to deal with a drip irrigation system (it's a big garden and wastes too much water otherwise). Sorry. I'm always bitter this time of year. I'm sure I'll be singing its praises in a couple months.
 
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