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Vegetarianism/Veganism

Kelzie

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Being a vegan, I admit I have a slight bias... :smile: Just wondering what everyone else thinks about vegetarianism and/or veganism. I didn't notice another thread about it, so if there is one, I apologize. Is it even an issue for most people? Is it annoying when vegetarians preach (okay, I suppose vegans do it to)? Any other vegetarians/vegans out there? Ah, so many questions. Any other related that I forgot to mention, please ask.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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One of my best friends is a vegetarian. One of my favorite historical figures is too :lol:. But I, myself, believe in the food chain. It's a good system, it's been working great for awhile now. I think it's cool.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
One of my best friends is a vegetarian. One of my favorite historical figures is too :lol:. But I, myself, believe in the food chain. It's a good system, it's been working great for awhile now. I think it's cool.
Hooray! A debate. Ahem. As to the "food chain" belief, aka humans are meant to eat meat:

Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

So sorry to take all this out on you, but the vegan forums won't allow trolls (no sense of fun), or people who don't "respect" veganism, so I can't debate with anyone else.

And then, there's the fact that gorillas, well all great apes, which are our closest animal ancestors are 99% vegan.
 

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What you have just presented is factual (for all I know) and nice information to know. However I do not think we should pick our dinners based on how closely related to use they are.

I've got alot of Vegetarian friends, including my sister. I respect her reasons for not wanting Betsy, but it's just so tasty! If we're basing our meals based on what values their life and what doesn't then I totally respect that, as well.

There is no rights and there is no wrongs. It's a perspective, the most hostile of all these types of people are those hard-cored Vegans, who'd yell at one for eating Cows.. I think this would be alot better if people would mind their own business and not tell me what I should eat.

No argument here.
 

Kelzie

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Arch Enemy said:
What you have just presented is factual (for all I know) and nice information to know. However I do not think we should pick our dinners based on how closely related to use they are.

I've got alot of Vegetarian friends, including my sister. I respect her reasons for not wanting Betsy, but it's just so tasty! If we're basing our meals based on what values their life and what doesn't then I totally respect that, as well.

There is no rights and there is no wrongs. It's a perspective, the most hostile of all these types of people are those hard-cored Vegans, who'd yell at one for eating Cows.. I think this would be alot better if people would mind their own business and not tell me what I should eat.

No argument here.
It's true. Although a lot of problems would be solved if people became vegetarian/vegan. There's a reason the American Heart Association endorses a vegetarian diet. I look at vegetarian/veganism a lot like I look at religion. I don't believe in it, but if someone else wants to, that's there deal. What I don't like is when people expect me to believe Bible is fact, or the stuff that the Meat/Dairy/Egg Council says is. Like it's the food chain. Or people have to eat meat or they'd die. Or people are designed to eat meat. That is what I like to debate. The actual decision? It's up to the individual.
 

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You're correct, if we all turned Vegetarians then alot of problems would be solved. But more problems would soon arise, there's no solving all the problems, either side presents it's own difficulties.
 

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nutritionally it makes no sense be a vegatarian because so many of our dietary needs are found in meats. theres a reason why vegetarians constantly suffer from anemia, problems with their nervous systems, osteoperosis, hypertension, etc. Its because they dont get enough calcium, vitamin b12, long chain amino acids, and complete protiens in their diet. you have to go out of your way and eat unnaturally to stay healthy as a veggie...that alone tell's me humans should eat meat. if we were made to be vegetarians, why would they have to supplement so many nutrients just to meet the RDA?

another reason is that homosapiens are clearly classified as omnivores. we have canine teeth. and whoever said we dont have claws is dead wrong. if you believe in evolution, nearly all mammals have grown some type of "claws", these are our fingernails.

unethical treatment of animals is the worst arguments against vegetarians because their believes are constantly flawed when they base their convictions off this. if youre trying to stand up for animal rights, that means you not only shouldnt eat meat, you shouldnt be using animal by-products at all, assuming you dont want to be hypicritical of yourself because there isnt a single person on earth that will go through life without using something that was made from an animal. whether you kill a cow to eat or you kill it to make a purse, you still kill it.
 
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Kelzie said:
Hooray! A debate. Ahem. As to the "food chain" belief, aka humans are meant to eat meat:

Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

So sorry to take all this out on you, but the vegan forums won't allow trolls (no sense of fun), or people who don't "respect" veganism, so I can't debate with anyone else.

And then, there's the fact that gorillas, well all great apes, which are our closest animal ancestors are 99% vegan.
you do realize youre comparing humans to carnivores right? and do you realize that humans are NOT carnivores? we share traits with both carnivores and herbivores which logically makes us omnivores, what modern science has classified us as.
 

Kelzie

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FiremanRyan said:
nutritionally it makes no sense be a vegatarian because so many of our dietary needs are found in meats. theres a reason why vegetarians constantly suffer from anemia, problems with their nervous systems, osteoperosis, hypertension, etc. Its because they dont get enough calcium, vitamin b12, long chain amino acids, and complete protiens in their diet. you have to go out of your way and eat unnaturally to stay healthy as a veggie...that alone tell's me humans should eat meat. if we were made to be vegetarians, why would they have to supplement so many nutrients just to meet the RDA?
Ah, where to start. First off, your concern for our "unhealthy" diet is touching. For the record, I get plenty of protein (actually, if a person ate nothing but brown rice they would get plenty of protein), and I don't suffer from anemia. As for osteoperosis, I assume that you're talking about vegans who don't consume milk? This despite the extensive Nurses Study done at Harvard where nurses who drank two or more glasses of milk a day had twice the number of hip fractures as those who drank one glass or less a day. The doctor's conclusion to help prevent osteoperosis? Eat vegetables! And exercise which increases your bone strength. As for the hypertension claim, now you're just throwing medical conditions out there. Hypertension, aka high blood pressure, is caused by a diet high in salt, obesity, lack of physical exercise, and heavy alcohol consumption. I didn't see vegetarianism in there...in fact, the way doctors recommend to decrease your blood pressure without meds is...you guessed it! Eat your greens. Vitamin B12 is an interesting thing. No mammal produces it naturally. We humans used to get it from drinking from rivers, or off the vegetables we eat (it is abundant in dirt, and when you don't wash it all off...). It is also possible to get it from herbivores who have been eating plants with dirt on them. The problems today is that a.) we no longer drink from rivers and b.) our veggies arrive so clean that there's no B12 left. So I know you're thinking "go kill a cow", right? Unfortunately, the meat you eat is also supplemented with B12, because the animals don't eat natural food anymore. Cows eat corn now, as an example and they are given B12 vitamins. So excuse me, but I don't see the difference between you supplementing through your meat, and me supplementing through vitamins. Complete proteins are complicated, but if you want me to go in to it, I will


FiremanRyan said:
another reason is that homosapiens are clearly classified as omnivores. we have canine teeth. and whoever said we dont have claws is dead wrong. if you believe in evolution, nearly all mammals have grown some type of "claws", these are our fingernails.
We don't have canines like lions have canines. We have canines like gorrillas have canines. As before mentioned, they are 99% vegan (thet eat the occasional bug and bird egg). I tell ya what tiger. You go chase down a deer, kill it with your mighty canines, shred it's skin with your claws and eat its flesh raw like real carnivores and omnivores do. Then we'll talk.

FiremanRyan said:
unethical treatment of animals is the worst arguments against vegetarians because their believes are constantly flawed when they base their convictions off this. if youre trying to stand up for animal rights, that means you not only shouldnt eat meat, you shouldnt be using animal by-products at all, assuming you dont want to be hypicritical of yourself because there isnt a single person on earth that will go through life without using something that was made from an animal. whether you kill a cow to eat or you kill it to make a purse, you still kill it.
I never said anything about the unethical treatment of animals. I have never been to an animal rights meeting, or march, or rally, or whatever they do for kicks. I in fact condone animal testing. However, I will not kill an animal when I don't have to. Which means I don't eat them because I don't have to. Depriving a creature of life to satisfy your tastebuds for a 15-min. meal smacks as a little selfish. And for the record I don't buy leather.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
You're correct, if we all turned Vegetarians then alot of problems would be solved. But more problems would soon arise, there's no solving all the problems, either side presents it's own difficulties.
Just out of curiousity, what problems do you think would arise?
 

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Kelzie said:
Just out of curiousity, what problems do you think would arise?
Overpopulation of Animals is a biggie, and I wouldn't agree to a national "limit the masses" day just for sport. I'd imagine that Soy beans are the most valuable vegetarian product and I don't doubt that in is grown in the masses.. but if everybody in the world stopped eating meat, would we have a problem with finding enough vegetables in order to sustain this new "fad"?

In one of your posts you bring up a fact dealing with Factory Cows against Natural Cows. I agree with you on this subject, Factory Cows is a showing that we've become so greedy that we'd do so much to a natural animal just so it could produce more meat to feed our frenzy populace. In addition to a daily supplement of steroids, factory animals are also given drugs which make them believe they're not where they are and that they're living a normal life-style. Truth is they're usually so huge and so cramped together that they have to remain in the same place til it's their butcher time.

I hate the idea of Factory Meat, it's bogus, but the world is adopting to this new "fad".
 

Kelzie

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Arch Enemy said:
Overpopulation of Animals is a biggie, and I wouldn't agree to a national "limit the masses" day just for sport. I'd imagine that Soy beans are the most valuable vegetarian product and I don't doubt that in is grown in the masses.. but if everybody in the world stopped eating meat, would we have a problem with finding enough vegetables in order to sustain this new "fad"?

In one of your posts you bring up a fact dealing with Factory Cows against Natural Cows. I agree with you on this subject, Factory Cows is a showing that we've become so greedy that we'd do so much to a natural animal just so it could produce more meat to feed our frenzy populace. In addition to a daily supplement of steroids, factory animals are also given drugs which make them believe they're not where they are and that they're living a normal life-style. Truth is they're usually so huge and so cramped together that they have to remain in the same place til it's their butcher time.

I hate the idea of Factory Meat, it's bogus, but the world is adopting to this new "fad".
Completely agree with you about factory animals. Ugh. Even if I weren't a vegan, I would have to eat organic meat. Just seen too many pictures of "growths" on animals that are still being killed for human consumption. As to your first point, I believe you are wondering if we could find enough food for people if we stop eating meat? It's funny you should mention it, cause that's the only point that convinced my sister to stop eating meat (she couldn't give a damn about animals or her health).

"In the US, 157 million tons of cereals, legumes and vegetable protein – all suitable for human consumption (well except for feed corn, but is an easy matter of switching types of corn) – is fed to livestock to produce just 28 million tons of animal protein in the form of meat."

"An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of soy beans, 30 times more (you're right about soybeans being one of the most important crops, it's because it has so much protein and the plants produce an incredible amount)."

"The grain fed to animals does not convert directly into meat to feed people. The vast majority is either excreted or used as “fuel” to keep the animal alive and functioning. For every 10 kilograms of soy protein fed to America’s cattle only one kilogram is converted to meat. Almost the entire population of India and China, nearly two billion people, could be fed on the protein consumed and largely wasted by the United States’ beef herd. Because of the demand for animal feed, a Western meat-based diet uses four and a half times more land than is necessary for a vegan diet and two and a quarter times more than for a vegetarian diet."

This, admittedly, was taken from a website encouraging a plant-based diet, but in my defense for using a possibly biased website, the US Beef Council doesn't exactly publish these statements.
 

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Kelzie said:
Hooray! A debate. Ahem. As to the "food chain" belief, aka humans are meant to eat meat:
I can't help but notice that you didn't include any info about an excluded third option, omnivores.
 

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Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws (except the ones that do)
Sharks: no claws
Therefore Sharks are vegetarians.

Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Elephants: do not perspire through skin pores
Therefore Elephants are carnivores

Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
The human intestinal tract is about 20 some odd feet.
How does ~20 ft = 10-12 times the body length of a human?

Kelzie said:
And then, there's the fact that gorillas, well all great apes, which are our closest animal ancestors are 99% vegan.
The great apes are not our ancestors. We may have come from a common ancestor, but they are not our ancestors.


I'm just glad that we're not exclusively insectivores.
 
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Simon W. Moon said:
I can't help but notice that you didn't include any info about an excluded third option, omnivores.
That was exactly what I was thinking.

I was also thinking about why the animals eat what they eat. Do they eat meat or vegetables based on other animals with the same types of pores? They do it out of instinct, yes?

Just because humans resemble something doesn't mean we should change our way of life. I may seem like a monkey at first glance, but I'd like to assure you: I've never thrown fecal matter.
 

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Kelzie said:
As before mentioned, they are 99% vegan (thet eat the occasional bug and bird egg).
Do you have a citation for this statistic?
Some of the apes hunt monkies.

Kelzie said:
I tell ya what tiger. You go chase down a deer, kill it with your mighty canines, shred it's skin with your claws and eat its flesh raw like real carnivores and omnivores do. Then we'll talk.
I'll do it right after you get a shark to kill with it's claws.
You see different animals get by in the world in different ways.
Humans use their brains, cooperation and tools to hunt.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Just because humans resemble something doesn't mean we should change our way of life. I may seem like a monkey at first glance, but I'd like to assure you: I've never thrown fecal matter.
And I've thrown fecal matter, yet, sadly, I'm lacking a prehensile tail.:(
 

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Chimpanzee Hunting Behavior and Human Evolution

In the early 1960s, when the British primatologist Jane Goodall first observed wild chimpanzees hunting and eating meat in Gombe National Park, Tanzania, it was widely believed that these animals were strict vegetarians. Skeptics suggested that the diet of the Gombe chimpanzees was aberrant. Others suggested that the quantity of meat the chimpanzees ate was trivial. After more than 30 years of research, however, it is now clear that meat is a natural part of the chimpanzees' diet. Indeed, hunting has been observed at most of the other sites where chimpanzees are studied across central Africa. And, it turns out, a chimpanzee community may eat several hundred kilograms of meat in a single year.
Not that this means that we should eat meat any more than chimps being strict vegans would mean that we shouldn't, just illustrating some of the facts.
 

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Kelzie said:
Ah, where to start. First off, your concern for our "unhealthy" diet is touching. For the record, I get plenty of protein (actually, if a person ate nothing but brown rice they would get plenty of protein), and I don't suffer from anemia. As for osteoperosis, I assume that you're talking about vegans who don't consume milk? This despite the extensive Nurses Study done at Harvard where nurses who drank two or more glasses of milk a day had twice the number of hip fractures as those who drank one glass or less a day. The doctor's conclusion to help prevent osteoperosis? Eat vegetables! And exercise which increases your bone strength. As for the hypertension claim, now you're just throwing medical conditions out there. Hypertension, aka high blood pressure, is caused by a diet high in salt, obesity, lack of physical exercise, and heavy alcohol consumption. I didn't see vegetarianism in there...in fact, the way doctors recommend to decrease your blood pressure without meds is...you guessed it! Eat your greens. Vitamin B12 is an interesting thing. No mammal produces it naturally. We humans used to get it from drinking from rivers, or off the vegetables we eat (it is abundant in dirt, and when you don't wash it all off...). It is also possible to get it from herbivores who have been eating plants with dirt on them. The problems today is that a.) we no longer drink from rivers and b.) our veggies arrive so clean that there's no B12 left.
ok...

"actually, if a person ate nothing but brown rice they would get plenty of protein"

...this alone tells me you should see a nutritionist before continuing a vegetarian diet. im not sure where you get your information from but its wrong.

first off, proteins are made up of long-chain amino acids. now there are two types of aminos: NEAA's (non-essential amino acids), these are can be synthesized by the body. and EAA's (essential amino acids), these cannot be made by the body and must be ingested through your diet. brown rice (along with tofu, beans, etc.) does have protein in it but they are not complete proteins because they are missing certain amino acids. these aminos are always EAA's so you need to get them through your diet to make a complete and usable protein in the rice.

for example, brown rice is missing the amino acid isoleucine. if eaten with the brown rice it would make the AA chain complete, thus making a whole protein. yet isoleucine is only found in foods like like fish, poultry, and cottage cheese. so you end up having to go UNNATURALLY out of your way to supplement the nutrients you normally wouldnt have to worry about not getting if you ate meat. many vegetarians dont realize this and thats why theyre unhealthy.

and god, you are so wrong about vitamin B12, the only natural place its found IS meat! this makes sense since its made in your liver. OTHER foods are fortified with it, not animal products. its been shown that a high percentage of vegetarians are defecient of this and other fat soluable vitamins. they suffer from osteoperosis not because they dont drink enough milk, its because they cant get enough calcium in their diet.

and let me ask you, how much Omega 3, Omega 6, and HDL Cholesterol do you get in your diet? these are things you need and you should know what youre taking in.
 
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Simon W. Moon said:
I can't help but notice that you didn't include any info about an excluded third option, omnivores.
Umm...omnivores do eat meat. So if humans were meant to eat meat, they could be omnivores too. I was expecting some people to draw a logical conclusion so I didn't include every option. Sorry.

Simon W. Moon said:
Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws (except the ones that do)
Sharks: no claws

Therefore Sharks are vegetarians.
Ah no. See sharks are fish. I don't know if you've noticed that they have no limbs to attatch said claws to? Let's try to stick to mammals here. I mean, really, Venus fly traps have no claws. Are you honestly trying to compare our fingernails to a lion's claws?

Simon W. Moon said:
Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Elephants: do not perspire through skin pores

Therefore Elephants are carnivores.
Of course you would find the one herbivore that...oh nevermind I'll explain it anyway. Since elephants are so large, if they were to perspire through their skin pores like the rest of the herbivore family does (notice dogs and bears, both of which are omnivores, perspire through their mouths), they would lose 11 litres of water an hour. Which is a little difficult to replace in the Savanna. So elephants have the unique characteristic of regulating body temperature through cooling tubes in their ears. Regardless, we're talking about trends here, not one single example in the animal kingdom.

Simon W. Moon said:
Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

The human intestinal tract is about 20 some odd feet.
How does ~20 ft = 10-12 times the body length of a human?
Well you got me there. :mrgreen: Teach me for trusting vegetarian facts...it's still in between the two though

Simon W. Moon said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzie
And then, there's the fact that gorillas, well all great apes, which are our closest animal ancestors are 99% vegan.

The great apes are not our ancestors. We may have come from a common ancestor, but they are not our ancestors.
As you can see, I said they were our closest animal ancestor. Not our ancestor. I am well aware that humans and apes have evolved in two different lines. However, considering that we share 99.4% of key genes with chimps, I stand by my statement.
 

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Kelzie said:
Umm...omnivores do eat meat. So if humans were meant to eat meat, they could be omnivores too. I was expecting some people to draw a logical conclusion so I didn't include every option. Sorry.



Ah no. See sharks are fish. I don't know if you've noticed that they have no limbs to attatch said claws to? Let's try to stick to mammals here. I mean, really, Venus fly traps have no claws. Are you honestly trying to compare our fingernails to a lion's claws?



Of course you would find the one herbivore that...oh nevermind I'll explain it anyway. Since elephants are so large, if they were to perspire through their skin pores like the rest of the herbivore family does (notice dogs and bears, both of which are omnivores, perspire through their mouths), they would lose 11 litres of water an hour. Which is a little difficult to replace in the Savanna. So elephants have the unique characteristic of regulating body temperature through cooling tubes in their ears. Regardless, we're talking about trends here, not one single example in the animal kingdom.
Seems to me like an animal's characteristics have more to do with their environment then their diet...
 

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Kelzie said:
Umm...omnivores do eat meat. So if humans were meant to eat meat, they could be omnivores too. I was expecting some people to draw a logical conclusion so I didn't include every option. Sorry.
Yet, omnivores are something different than carnivores.

Kelzie said:
Ah no. See sharks are fish. Let's try to stick to mammals here.
If you'd specified ahead of time I could've used a different example.

Kelzie said:
Are you honestly trying to compare our fingernails to a lion's claws?
No I'm not trying to equate our fingernails with lions' claws. Just pointing out that the reasoning is faulty.

Kelzie said:
Of course you would find the one herbivore that...
Actually, there are others, but one is sufficient to disprove the idea that one thing necessarily follows another.

Kelzie said:
Regardless, we're talking about trends here, not one single example in the animal kingdom.
Yet, you're certain that humans are not yet another "single example in the animal kingdom" of bucking a trend?

Kelzie said:
Well you got me there. :mrgreen: Teach me for trusting vegetarian facts...it's still in between the two though
In between the two...Remarkable!
Almost as if we were designed to eat vegetation and meat.

Kelzie said:
As you can see, I said they were our closest animal ancestor. Not our ancestor.
How is our closest ancestor not our ancestor?
 

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FiremanRyan said:
ok...

"actually, if a person ate nothing but brown rice they would get plenty of protein"

...this alone tells me you should see a nutritionist before continuing a vegetarian diet. im not sure where you get your information from but its wrong.
I didn't say I eat nothing but brown rice.

FiremanRyan said:
first off, proteins are made up of long-chain amino acids. now there are two types of aminos: NEAA's (non-essential amino acids), these are can be synthesized by the body. and EAA's (essential amino acids), these cannot be made by the body and must be ingested through your diet. brown rice (along with tofu, beans, etc.) does have protein in it but they are not complete proteins because they are missing certain amino acids. these aminos are always EAA's so you need to get them through your diet to make a complete and usable protein in the rice.

for example, brown rice is missing the amino acid isoleucine. if eaten with the brown rice it would make the AA chain complete, thus making a whole protein. yet isoleucine is only found in foods like like fish, poultry, and cottage cheese. so you end up having to go UNNATURALLY out of your way to supplement the nutrients you normally wouldnt have to worry about not getting if you ate meat. many vegetarians dont realize this and thats why theyre unhealthy.
And you are asking where I get my information from? Isoleucine is also found abundantly in seeds, nuts, lentils, soy beans (and so of course, tofu and tempeh), and cereal grains. Do any of these foods sound very UNNATURAL to you? Sounds to me like a balanced diet. Vegans can get all the essential amino acids from very normal plant sources. In fact I don't even go out of my way to include them in my diet. They just end up there.

FiremanRyan said:
and god, you are so wrong about vitamin B12, the only natural place its found IS meat! this makes sense since its made in your liver. OTHER foods are fortified with it, not animal products. its been shown that a high percentage of vegetarians are defecient of this and other fat soluable vitamins. they suffer from osteoperosis not because they dont drink enough milk, its because they cant get enough calcium in their diet.
Sources please? Well you'll probably have problems finding any, since no body, human or animal, can make B12 in their liver. It's stored in the liver. Maybe that's why you're confused. All the B12 in nature is produced by microorganisms, bacteria, fungi, and algae; plants and animals cannot produce it. Animals are able to absorb it when they eat plants containing these microorganisms, or if they're lucky, they have bacteria in their intestine that can make some of it (humans do have bacteria in the large intestine that produces a small amount of B12, but alas, we can't absorb it from the large intestine). And on a different note, where do you get your calcium from if it's not from a milk or milk product?

FiremanRyan said:
and let me ask you, how much Omega 3, Omega 6, and HDL Cholesterol do you get in your diet? these are things you need and you should know what youre taking in.
Omegas 3 and 6 are easy, they are in most vegetable oils, which is in almost everything I eat.

Your liver produces all the cholesterol your body need from saturated fats.
 

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Kelzie said:
Sources please? Well you'll probably have problems finding any, since no body, human or animal, can make B12 in their liver. It's stored in the liver. Maybe that's why you're confused. All the B12 in nature is produced by microorganisms, bacteria, fungi, and algae; plants and animals cannot produce it. Animals are able to absorb it when they eat plants containing these microorganisms, or if they're lucky, they have bacteria in their intestine that can make some of it (humans do have bacteria in the large intestine that produces a small amount of B12, but alas, we can't absorb it from the large intestine). And on a different note, where do you get your calcium from if it's not from a milk or milk product?
i partly mis-worded what i said. B12 IS a bacteria which is naturally synthesized by animals, but plants are not sourses of it. this is why they have to be fortified with it. if you want a source, here:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/vegetarianism_myths_02.htm

"Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. While lacto and lacto-ovo vegetarians have sources of vitamin B12 in their diets (from dairy products and eggs), vegans (total vegetarians) do not.....the only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are animal products, especially organ meats and eggs (17). Though present in lesser amounts than meat and eggs, dairy products do contain B12. Vegans, therefore, should consider adding dairy products into their diets. If dairy cannot be tolerated, eggs, preferably from free-run hens, are a virtual necessity."
 
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