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VA. Man Arrested For Plotting DC Attacks.

I'm actually a bigot against terrorists, and those who support them.

I never cared much about Muslims one way or the other until a significant number of them turned to terrorism. I don't care what people believe so long as they don't try to change society, or expect special treatment, as a result of these beliefs.

You don't win a debate by calling people 'bigots', by the way, though the thick of head would win a lot of debates if they could.

You are doing EXACTLY what many liberals say we conservatives do... you're lumping in ALL Muslims with the VAST MINORITY who are terrorists, and says 'let's punish them all by not allwoing them in... they don't contribute in any meaningful way anyway'.

I find that sickening. Perhaps you should seek counseling.
 
Militant Islam ≠ all Islam.You said you wanted to eliminate all risk. The only way to do that is to disallow all immigration, especially considering that Muslims live in pretty much every country in the world.

Please use quotes when responding.
 
No, you don't. Many countries have certain criteria before allowing entry. Perhaps the best known, in fact, are the Muslim countries themselves. You can't even wear symbols that represent any other religion than Islam.

Muslim countries do a lot of things that are counter to American traditions. That doesn't justify us doing it.

Religion is a set of beliefs taught in a book. It is not a race. No one is advocating the disallowing of entry because of race, but of beliefs. And some of the Islami beliefs are obviously contradictory to a free society.

Religion, per constitutional law, is viewed on par with race with regards to discrimination.

I find it hillarious that yo'ure speaking about a "free society" and "beliefs contradictory" to such as you sit here telling this free society that it should discriminate in regards to its freedoms based off the religion one chooses to engage in.

If Jews or Japanese were the source of terror than you might have an argument, but they are not.

Doesn't matter, unless you're writing into the law that bans the immigration of muslims that its "because some terrorists are muslim". But then, if you do that, you need a percentage. What percentage of a population must have committed terrorists acts for it to be considered okay to ban it from immigrating.

The fact of the matter is if you start discriminating on immigration on those criteria than other discrimination on similar criteria is opened up as potentially possible.

I have no problem dealing with any anti Social belief system, whether it is racism, anti women, or any other anti social behaviour. To claim religious freedom for anti social beliefs and beaviour is a concept that should have disappeared long ago.

Ah, so you're against freedom of religion when you don't like it. Gotcha. Well, I'll be sure not to mistakenly think you care about the constitution.

No, it is admitting that there are a sufficient number of Muslims out there who could be a danger to the well being of the general public. This is clearly true, and there are not enough 'moderate' Muslims taking on those who would be supportive of terrorism, or other anti social behaviour.

There's a sufficient number of blacks that could be a danger to the general public. While we're at it a sufficient number of whites as well. A sufficient number of murders are christians, just to be safe we should ban all christians. A sufficient number of individuals that drive cars and drink alcohol end up driving cars while drinking alcohol and thus present a danger to the public, we should ban cars and drinking.

Certainly they can lie, in fact lying is a part of their religion, but we needn't concern ourselves with that at the moment.

Funny, I know a ton of christians that lie too.

Perhaps a vote should be taken. I don't think Muslims add too much to any community that others couldn't fill more peacefully.

Sure you can vote.

Its called a constitutional amendment to remove freedom of religion.

Best of luck
 
I'm actually a bigot against terrorists, and those who support them.

I never cared much about Muslims one way or the other until a significant number of them turned to terrorism. I don't care what people believe so long as they don't try to change society, or expect special treatment, as a result of these beliefs.

You don't win a debate by calling people 'bigots', by the way, though the thick of head would win a lot of debates if they could.

I think the bigoted comment stands. There are only a hanful of thousands of jihadists on earth and only hundreds of trained high profile terrorists who pose a significant threat. Out of over a billion thats a pretty good healthy number.
 
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Whovian

You are doing EXACTLY what many liberals say we conservatives do... you're lumping in ALL Muslims with the VAST MINORITY who are terrorists, and says 'let's punish them all by not allwoing them in... they don't contribute in any meaningful way anyway'.



How is it punishing them all by not allowing them in? Do you really feel your area of the world is so much superior to Islamic nations? If so, let's have an honest diiscussion as to the reasons why.

As a matter of fact there is no certain we we can tell who is a Muslim terrorist, who isn't, and whoo is a Muslim supporter and who isn't.

In Canada there has been several terrorist attempts by Muslims which have, so far, been unsuccesful. If Canada needs immigrants then it would make more sense to bring them from Latin American countries rather than from those areas of the where religion plays to active a role in their lives, and the beliefs run contrary to the general live and let live way of life to which Canadians are accustomed. If life in Islamic countroes is unsatisfactory we shpuld start asking why and perhaps ask for some reforms. But to say that Muslims should be allowed free entry because Islamic countries are not a fit place to live doesn't make a great deal of sense.


"I find that sickening. Perhaps you should seek counseling".

Perhaps your mummy can give you a hug.
 
Whovian

You are doing EXACTLY what many liberals say we conservatives do... you're lumping in ALL Muslims with the VAST MINORITY who are terrorists, and says 'let's punish them all by not allwoing them in... they don't contribute in any meaningful way anyway'.

How is it punishing them all by not allowing them in? Do you really feel your area of the world is so much superior to Islamic nations? If so, let's have an honest discussion as to the reasons why.

As a matter of fact there is no certain we we can tell who is a Muslim terrorist, who isn't, and who is a Muslim supporter of terrorism and who isn't.

In Canada there has been several terrorist attempts by Muslims which have, so far, been unsuccessful. If Canada needs immigrants then it would make more sense to bring them from Latin American countries rather than from those areas of the world where religion plays too active a role in their people's lives, and the beliefs run contrary to the general live and let live way of life to which Canadians are accustomed. If life in Islamic countries is unsatisfactory we should start asking why and perhaps ask for some reforms. But to say that Muslims should be allowed free entry because Islamic countries are not a fit place to live doesn't make a great deal of sense.

"I find that sickening. Perhaps you should seek counseling".

Perhaps your mummy can give you a hug.
 
How is it punishing them all by not allowing them in? Do you really feel your area of the world is so much superior to Islamic nations? If so, let's have an honest diiscussion as to the reasons why.

Yes, I believe it is in many ways. One such way is having freedom of religion.

As a matter of fact there is no certain we we can tell who is a Muslim terrorist, who isn't, and whoo is a Muslim supporter and who isn't.

Yep.

We can't tell magically whose a pedophile, a rapist, a murder, a drug dealer, or any other sort of criminal thing either. However we don't punish an entire huge swatch of people in abject disregard for the principles and traditions of our country because of that fact.

It'd be one thing if you wanted a more in depth check on individuals who declare themselves muslims, or are from muslim countries, as that is at least not denying them entry based on religion.

Not to mention that your goal would be useless in doing anything but keeping law abiding muslims out. Muslim terrorists that have a desire to get in the country to do terror would just lie on their paperwork and claim not to be muslims.
 
As a matter of fact there is no certain we we can tell who is a Muslim terrorist, who isn't, and who is a Muslim supporter of terrorism and who isn't. Perhaps your mummy can give you a hug.

So, you're using the immigration equivelent of 'kill em all, let God sort them out', because you're a scared religious bigot. Got it.

Yo momma already gave me one... :ninja:
(God... here comes another warning...)
 
My dissappointment is with moderate law abiding muslims. I don't think they are willing to take back their religion from the terrorists - so I have to ask why won't they? If the extremists are 0.00001% world wide, what is it that is preventing the moderate followers of Islam to out the extremists. I'm not talking about some lip service denouncement, I'm talking about full blown confession saying, "So and So is living here and he and these other 5 men are planning to bomb this place... ", then the police get them and lock them up. Why isn't that happening and why hasn't it happened since say the 1970's when terrorists really made their appearance on the national stage with plane hijackings?

Wouldn't that not only serve the purpose of rejecting those who kill in the name of Islam, denouncement and rejection of those extremists views by the one group that could actually carry out the defeat of Al Qaeda and other groups like them. So what's the problem and why hasn't it happened?
 
I think the bigoted comment stands. There are only a hanful of thousands of jihadists on earth and only hundreds of trained high profile terrorists who pose a significant threat. Out of over a billion thats a pretty good healthy number.

You actually have no idea how many jihadists there are in the world or where they are. Certainly there are highly trained terrorists but we also have the Richard Reids and this guy in Virginia,

Those Muslims who committed 7/7 in London were just ordinary Muslims also. No one pegged them for terrorist material, but the people on that bus are dead as a result of Islamic immigration, and hundreds of police are at work trying to stop that. I do not see any advantage in further Muslim emigration, as apposed to eliminating it altogether.

And while there is well over a billion Muslims in the world, how many of them are terrorists now located in the United States, Canada, the UK, Australia, Denmark, and so on?

The fact is you have no idea what the percentages are or who they are.
 
The fact is you have no idea what the percentages are or who they are.
Therefore, there is no possible way to differentiate between them and anyone else.
 
You actually have no idea how many jihadists there are in the world or where they are. Certainly there are highly trained terrorists but we also have the Richard Reids and this guy in Virginia,

Yes, the actually have estimates on numbers of armed jihadists, did you think I pulled the number out my ass? ALso this guy was goofsauce, they have no connections and are falling for FBI dummy dupes.

Those Muslims who committed 7/7 in London were just ordinary Muslims also.

They weren't ordinary they were terrorists. You may not mean it but you seem to imply terrorism is normalcy for muslims.

And while there is well over a billion Muslims in the world, how many of them are terrorists now located in the United States, Canada, the UK, Australia, Denmark, and so on?

PHEER TEH MUZLAMZ.
 
Ockham

My dissappointment is with moderate law abiding muslims. I don't think they are willing to take back their religion from the terrorists - so I have to ask why won't they? If the extremists are 0.00001% world wide, what is it that is preventing the moderate followers of Islam to out the extremists. I'm not talking about some lip service denouncement, I'm talking about full blown confession saying, "So and So is living here and he and these other 5 men are planning to bomb this place... ", then the police get them and lock them up. Why isn't that happening and why hasn't it happened since say the 1970's when terrorists really made their appearance on the national stage with plane hijackings?

We might as well forget about these "moderate" Muslims, Ockham. They will not speak up.

and why should they?

They can see that most of those people in the democracies will not speak up either. Anyone who dares criticize Islamic extremists is considered a bigot, arrested, has their lives threatened, need 24 hour portction, and so on. If people accustomed to free speech in the democracies can't speak up, why should "moderate" Muslims? In fact their lives would be at even greater risk because they are exposed to the extremists in their midst. The cowardice being displayed throughout the democracies would give any rational person, or moderate Muslim, pause..

Wouldn't that not only serve the purpose of rejecting those who kill in the name of Islam, denouncement and rejection of those extremists views by the one group that could actually carry out the defeat of Al Qaeda and other groups like them. So what's the problem and why hasn't it happened?

We are asking moderate Muslims to do the job we should be doing, which is to stand up to these bullies and continue with our customs of free speech and free media. Until we start denouncing child marriage, the murder of gays and adulterers, the subjugation of women, etc. the decline of the democracies will continue. We deserve whatever we get.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Grant and Whovian. Next personal attack from either of you and an infraction and thread ban will occur.
 
We might as well forget about these "moderate" Muslims, Ockham. They will not speak up.

and why should they?
There's lots of reasons. First, they are being targeted as a religion that harbors extremists who kill tens of thousands of people every year. I don't know the source but I remember hearing 40K so far this year world wide. Second, people who defend muslims constantly compare the # of extremists to the 1.5 billion muslims world wide in order to prove extremists are insignificant. Not to the 40K (or whatever number) who were killed... Third, it's the right thing to do to denounce and expose these killers who give Islam not only a bad name, but kill in their religions name. If Muslims get so mad about a cartoon, I would think they'd be besides themselves with rage over the 40K deaths --- but its the direct opposite. I mean I can go on... but asking why should they? Really?

They can see that most of those people in the democracies will not speak up either. Anyone who dares criticize Islamic extremists is considered a bigot, arrested, has their lives threatened, need 24 hour portction, and so on. If people accustomed to free speech in the democracies can't speak up, why should "moderate" Muslims?
Then that tells me that this isn't just 0.0001% and that by OMISSION, Muslim are content to allow extremists to murder and kill innocent people. If what you say is true, then that's guilt by complacency in my view.

In fact their lives would be at even greater risk because they are exposed to the extremists in their midst. The cowardice being displayed throughout the democracies would give any rational person, or moderate Muslim, pause..
I'm sorry to keep using these numbers but they're convenient ... so out of 1,000,000 Muslims --- 0.0001% is 10 extremists. The cowardice or fear - whichever is misplaced. Take 1% of the 1,000,000 Muslims which is 1,000 and go after the 10 extremists with the help of authorities - hunt them down, kill or capture them and identify that such behavior is not acceptable is Islam any longer. Sure it will take decades, but it's required. Sitting back and doing nothing when you know the terrorists are down the street making bombs is just as bad as helping them carry out their plans. I don't get it - maybe it's cultural or maybe ... just maybe we have it wrong. Maybe the complacency isn't out of fear, maybe it's deliberate.

We are asking moderate Muslims to do the job we should be doing, which is to stand up to these bullies and continue with our customs of free speech and free media. Until we start denouncing child marriage, the murder of gays and adulterers, the subjugation of women, etc. the decline of the democracies will continue. We deserve whatever we get.
No, we're asking Muslims to help us do the job we are ALREADY doing. And we are already denouncing those things but those issues are secondary or further down the list. We cannot help those who will not help themselves. If Muslim country's would show they will not stand for these bombings, these murders, the subjugation and fear tactics any longer --- it would be Islam who would benefit in the long run and the West who would benefit in the short term. Lumping in every other issue including Palestine/Israel, and social / cultural issues of the Middle East isn't and shouldn't be the focus. It should first be: Reject, denounce and help identify the extremists and bring Islam into the modern world. Keep the ideals of Islam, keep the traditions and keep the cultures alive but reject the slaughter of innocents by fanatics who have hijacked Islam.

Until that happens - nothing will change and your kids, and your kids kids will be facing the same issue we are facing now.
 
My dissappointment is with moderate law abiding muslims. I don't think they are willing to take back their religion from the terrorists - so I have to ask why won't they? If the extremists are 0.00001% world wide, what is it that is preventing the moderate followers of Islam to out the extremists. I'm not talking about some lip service denouncement, I'm talking about full blown confession saying, "So and So is living here and he and these other 5 men are planning to bomb this place... ", then the police get them and lock them up. Why isn't that happening and why hasn't it happened since say the 1970's when terrorists really made their appearance on the national stage with plane hijackings?

Wouldn't that not only serve the purpose of rejecting those who kill in the name of Islam, denouncement and rejection of those extremists views by the one group that could actually carry out the defeat of Al Qaeda and other groups like them. So what's the problem and why hasn't it happened?

It DOES happen in the parts of the Islamic world where the moderates have the upper hand. Terrorists are NOT tolerated - by either the government or the citizenry - in places like Jordan, Egypt, Oman, Dubai, and (in the last few years) Saudi Arabia. It doesn't happen in places like Yemen, Somalia, Gaza, Afghanistan, and Pakistan because the penalty for saying "so and so is living here" is to have one's head chopped off.
 
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It DOES happen in the parts of the Islamic world where the moderates have the upper hand. Terrorists are NOT tolerated - by either the government or the citizenry - in places like Jordan, Egypt, Oman, Dubai, and (in the last few years) Saudi Arabia. It doesn't happen in places like Yemen, Somalia, Gaza, Afghanistan, and Pakistan because the penalty for saying "so and so is living here" is to have one's head chopped off.

That's good to know --- I'd certainly support taking a small percentage of our defense budget and investing it int these area's to help expand those actions in Jordan and Egypt and then export it to Yemen, Somalia, etc... And I think that has to happen in parallel with the continued vigilence and catching those who wish to harm innocent people. Good response - thanks.
 
Ockham

There's lots of reasons. First, they are being targeted as a religion that harbors extremists who kill tens of thousands of people every year.

Yes, they are spreading terror and th moderates know that. It is the moderates in Iraq who are the targets of Islamic terrorists and that holds true in other areas as well. I've read that the murders of those passengers on 7/7 were deliberately set in a specific area to intimidate Muslims as well as the general British people.
I don't know the source but I remember hearing 40K so far this year world wide. Second, people who defend muslims constantly compare the # of extremists to the 1.5 billion muslims world wide in order to prove extremists are insignificant. Not to the 40K (or whatever number) who were killed... Third, it's the right thing to do to denounce and expose these killers who give Islam not only a bad name, but kill in their religions name. If Muslims get so mad about a cartoon, I would think they'd be besides themselves with rage over the 40K deaths --- but its the direct opposite. I mean I can go on... but asking why should they? Really?

Sure. You'll see how an earlier poster used that figure to downplay the number of deaths caused by Muslims. He should have actually used the number of Muslims in a particular country who committed or attempted terrorist acts rather than the world population. But that's the way they want to present their arguments, though it's not clear why.

Then that tells me that this isn't just 0.0001% and that by OMISSION, Muslim are content to allow extremists to murder and kill innocent people. If what you say is true, then that's guilt by complacency in my view.

But they are no more complacent than those living in the democracies. Here's a column that covers that rather well. SteynOnline - STOUT-HEARTED MEN?
I'm sorry to keep using these numbers but they're convenient ... so out of 1,000,000 Muslims --- 0.0001% is 10 extremists. The cowardice or fear - whichever is misplaced. Take 1% of the 1,000,000 Muslims which is 1,000 and go after the 10 extremists with the help of authorities - hunt them down, kill or capture them and identify that such behavior is not acceptable is Islam any longer. Sure it will take decades, but it's required. Sitting back and doing nothing when you know the terrorists are down the street making bombs is just as bad as helping them carry out their plans. I don't get it - maybe it's cultural or maybe ... just maybe we have it wrong. Maybe the complacency isn't out of fear, maybe it's deliberate.

I think, after all this time waiting for these 'moderates' to speak out that the odds are we have it wrong. In fact we have gone so far as to ignore the words of the Islamic religious and political leaders themselves, who have declared war on the west. Osama famously said that people will follow the stronger horse and, if all the hand wringing we see on here is any indication, that is not us.

No, we're asking Muslims to help us do the job we are ALREADY doing.

Our military is doing one job overseas while much of our media, courts and politicians, are doing quite another. It is a battle the military can win but this is not altogether a military war. It is cultural as well.

And we are already denouncing those things but those issues are secondary or further down the list. We cannot help those who will not help themselves. If Muslim country's would show they will not stand for these bombings, these murders, the subjugation and fear tactics any longer --- it would be Islam who would benefit in the long run and the West who would benefit in the short term.

But then you would be talking of a watered down kind of Islam, and not the kind the Islamic leaders are preferring, and fighting for.

Lumping in every other issue including Palestine/Israel, and social / cultural issues of the Middle East isn't and shouldn't be the focus. It should first be: Reject, denounce and help identify the extremists and bring Islam into the modern world. Keep the ideals of Islam, keep the traditions and keep the cultures alive but reject the slaughter of innocents by fanatics who have hijacked Islam.

That's right, but the West is not setting the agenda. We're too fearful of negative response, both from the political left and from the Islamists as well.

Until that happens - nothing will change and your kids, and your kids kids will be facing the same issue we are facing now.

Exactly. We have to defend the democratic freedoms and principles we have fought for over the centuries and I'm not sure we have the stomach for it, at least not on the home front.
 
It DOES happen in the parts of the Islamic world where the moderates have the upper hand. Terrorists are NOT tolerated - by either the government or the citizenry - in places like Jordan, Egypt, Oman, Dubai, and (in the last few years) Saudi Arabia. It doesn't happen in places like Yemen, Somalia, Gaza, Afghanistan, and Pakistan because the penalty for saying "so and so is living here" is to have one's head chopped off.

Good points.

But what about Iran and Syria?

Saudi Arabia also has many propaganda schools promoting violent Islam and hatred of the West, even though they might not directly be involved in actual terrorism itself. That is a problem that should be confronted.
 
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