Utopia not imagined

[gboisjo]

Perfection, like Heaven, is not a thing that mortal men can attain.

I agree. But I think God has higher hopes for us than what we have. I also believe what we have in America now is in itself an amazing accomplishment for mankind. All these different people with different viewpoints and different passions but really in the end making it all work.

What heaven, what god, you mean the one in the clouds.

Ask the Ukrainians about some bullshit utopia.

 

[Faramir777]

What heaven, what god, you mean the one in the clouds.

Ask the Ukrainians about some bullshit utopia.

I'm not asking Ukraine to develop s utopia at the moment. And neither was this post coming from a person who is going to lecture an under siege why they and Russia don't have a Utopia yet. I wasn't asking for divine intervention either. So my point is what's your point?

 

[Faramir777]

A utopia to me is a state that is better than today than yesterday. Not perfection. I of course did not imply I was seeking for perfection because I would assume people would understand that would be a juvenile assumption.

 

[Faramir777]

No, humans are hardwired towards violence and brutality just like the great apes we evolved fr

I seriously doubt that a Utopia will ever happen for the human race unless it will be a huge profit for a few greedy corporations/people.

You're right on the money no pun intended, but greed is probably the first thing that must change with the human race before it changes.

 

[Daisy]

I agree. But I think God has higher hopes for us than what we have. I also believe what we have in America now is in itself an amazing accomplishment for mankind. All these different people with different viewpoints and different passions but really in the end making it all work.

119 mass shootings in 2022 so far​

https://www.newsnationnow.com/morninginamerica/119-mass-shootings-in-2022-so-far/

 

[Faramir777]

No, humans are hardwired towards violence and brutality just like the great apes we evolved from.

Define utopia.

Yes the definition implies perfection. So yes we need a better word for it.

 

[gboisjo]

What heaven, what god, you mean the one in the clouds.

Ask the Ukrainians about some bullshit utopia.

I'm not asking Ukraine to develop s utopia at the moment. And neither was this post coming from a person who is going to lecture an under siege why they and Russia don't have a Utopia yet. I wasn't asking for divine intervention either. So my point is what's your point?

My point is this, Russia has readied its nuclear weapons.

Humanity isn't getting better, its become an over populated plague destroying everything around it.

50% of all bird species in the US are either gone or have become extinct.

 

[Faramir777]

An impractical scheme for social improvement.

Right on. We need a new word for social improvement besides Utopia.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Right on. We need a new word for social improvement besides Utopia.

Hmm… wasn’t that the idea behind Noah’s ark and the great flood?

I doubt that most would have agreed with that (authoritarian?) decision (to kill all but a chosen few) as having created Utopia.

 

[ataraxia]

No, humans are hardwired towards violence and brutality just like the great apes we evolved from.

Actually not true. Human nature certainly includes violence brutality, but also empathyand care, love and hate, generosity or greed, etc...

Which we are depends on which we choose. Appealing to "human nature" to say we HAVE to act one way or the other because we are hardwired that way is just shirking responsibility and freedom to choose to do the right, but harder thing. Appeal to human nature is just an excuse.

This is not personal opinion. It is the opinion of lots of different kinds of people who study human nature: anthropologists, sociologists, historians, philosophers, psychologists, etc...

 

[Faramir777]

My point is this, Russia has readied its nuclear weapons.

Humanity isn't getting better, its become an over populated plague destroying everything around it.

50% of all bird species in the US are either gone or have become extinct.

The apocalypse is always coming and people will get whipped up by a News channel or a church or cult or a myth. Fox News convinced the smartest man I know my grandfather that Obama was the Antichrist. I don't plan on attending Armageddon anymore, and I don't make plans for it because it never shows up.

We grow through conflict. A utopian society would by definition be a static society. There is no change so there is no growth. In other words a utopian society is a dead society.

This is the best counter point here. I absolutely agree that it would cause stagnation. Or maybe it would be a drastically reduced rate of advancement then we are accustomed to now. Is this a reason for people not to live in harmony with each other? I don't think so. But it's still a valid issue.

 

[ataraxia]

Do you think there's any merit in thinking Utopia possible if the humans who create it in the future have advanced and evolved to hold a philosophical/moral outlook on society that we can not conceive of yet?

I'm not sure "utopia" or "perfection" should be the goal. But I think it's fine to aim for "better"- more clever solutions to problems, better technologies, better economies, less crime, war, and violence, more trade and commerce, etc...



Some people get so frightened of the word "utopia" that they are afraid of doing anything to make things better. They are too afraid to even wipe their own behinds lest we achieve utopia.

 

[Gordy327]

Do you think there's any merit in thinking Utopia possible if the humans who create it in the future have advanced and evolved to hold a philosophical/moral outlook on society that we can not conceive of yet?

Star Trek did it.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Actually not true. Human nature certainly includes violence brutality, but also empathyand care, love and hate, generosity or greed, etc...

Which we are depends on which we choose. Appealing to "human nature" to say we HAVE to act one way or the other because we are hardwired that way is just shirking responsibility and freedom to choose to do the right, but harder thing. Appeal to human nature is just an excuse.

This is not personal opinion. It is the opinion of lots of different kinds of people who study human nature: anthropologists, sociologists, historians, philosophers, psychologists, etc...

OK, but is free will (individual freedom to choose) compatible with Utopia?

 

[Faramir777]

Star Trek did it.

Yes! What a great observation. Look how many technologies that were in Star Trek that have come to be reality. Why couldn't we do that? If you take the people on Earth right now living 2022 you could not form a Utopia with the human race as it is. But what if people started working for changes now. Maybe in after 3 or 4 generations of working for these changes a Star Trek like Civilization might come to form.

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

Do you think there's any merit in thinking Utopia possible if the humans who create it in the future have advanced and evolved to hold a philosophical/moral outlook on society that we can not conceive of yet?

I don't see it happening unless the genetics of being an asshole is purged. There are no selective pressures against being a shitty person, and many shitty people thrive in humanity.

No, humans have proven they cannot accomplish much of anything when they disregard their Creator...

disregard the violent, murderous Creator, as least as described in the bible and other religious texts

We were made in his image, no? So the creator must be violent and shitty as humans are

 

[ataraxia]

OK, but is free will (individual freedom to choose) compatible with Utopia?

Who cares? Like I wrote above, if we stop worrying about the big ultimate questions of "utopia" and "free will", and focus instead on seeing how we can make things better; on more concrete solutions to more concrete problems, these questions don't even matter anymore.

Let's stop worrying about utopia and instead think how we can improve the water supply and sanitation to a particular village or town, or improving literacy and education here and abroad, or setting up government systems where the people's voice matters and there are decent systems of checks and balances among the various branches of government, of improving funding to further advance cancer or virology research, improve the technology for green energy, etc...

There are tons of little things we can do to make things "better"- that will keep us so busy we won't have to worry about whether utopia is possible. "Better" is always good enough.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Star Trek did it.

Are you kidding me? Violence and injustice abound in Star Trek episodes.

“For me, it came down to this: there has always been violence (and even torture) in Star Trek. Sometimes that violence has been implicit, sometimes explicit, according to the dictates of censorship, the nature of the situation being depicted, the aesthetic of individual creators, or technical and/or budgetary limitations. And the reason that there has always been violence in Trek is that Trek is art, and there has always been violence—implicit and explicit—in art. It belongs there. It belongs in any narrative about human beings, even human beings of the future. Violence, often, *is* the narrative. Its source. Its engine. The question of whether it’s “too much” or not is ultimately a matter of taste. Personally, I come out closer to the “less is more” end. But that is just me.”

Star Trek: Picard Explains Why The Show's So Dark And Violent

Star Trek: Picard has been a hit with fans, as it means so much to a lot of folks to have Patrick Stewart back as Jean-Luc - not to mention the various other faces from the franchise's past who've been popping up. However, much like its forebear Star Trek: Discovery, some have taken umbrage with...

wegotthiscovered.com

 

[ataraxia]

Star Trek did it.

The problem is, for many people that is not utopia, but a nightmare: an atheist society where different races mix (even with aliens)? Dear Lord!

 

[Gordy327]

Yes! What a great observation. Look how many technologies that were in Star Trek that have come to be reality. Why couldn't we do that? If you take the people on Earth right now living 2022 you could not form a Utopia with the human race as it is. But what if people started working for changes now. Maybe in after 3 or 4 generations of working for these changes a Star Trek like Civilization might come to form.

A utopia would be very difficult to achieve. But it's not impossible. Technology can certainly help with that, as it can help people fulfill their needs. Think replicator Technology.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Who cares? Like I wrote above, if we stop worrying about the big ultimate questions of "utopia" and "free will", and focus instead on seeing how we can make things better; on more concrete solutions to more concrete problems, these questions don't even matter anymore.

Let's stop worrying about utopia and instead think how we can improve the water supply and sanitation to a particular village or town, or improving literacy and education here and abroad, or setting up government systems where the people's voice matters and there are decent systems of checks and balances among the various branches of government, of improving funding to further advance cancer or virology research, improve the technology for green energy, etc...

There are tons of little things we can do to make things "better"- that will keep us so busy we won't have to worry about whether utopia is possible.

OK, so you would rather not discuss utopia in a thread about utopia. HAND

 

[Gordy327]

The problem is, for many people that is not utopia, but a nightmare: an atheist society where different races mix (even with aliens)? Dear Lord!

Oh the horrors, am I right? OK, what if we don't allow Romulans? Lol

 

[ataraxia]

OK, so you would rather not discuss utopia in a thread about utopia. HAND

No, just pointing out why certain concepts like utopia are not very fruitful.

 

[ataraxia]

Oh the horrors, am I right? OK, what if we don't allow Romulans? Lol

Just gotta get Kirk to stop banging green and purple women with horns.

 

[Faramir777]

OK, so you would rather not discuss utopia in a thread about utopia. HAND

You just laid out perfectly how to start striving for Utopia! With the conclusion sounding a lot like a Utopia.