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Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000 (VI

TheDemSocialist

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Fiscal conservatives have done it again, proving how their values of saving money do exactly the opposite – at least for the taxpayers.
Utah’s newest war on the poor has mandated a quiz for all welfare recipients. This quiz determines if the person is likely to use drugs. If they are, then they’re required to take a drug test. Even if they test positive, they are not kicked off of the welfare program, but instead are required to enter substance abuse programs.


To date, Utah has spent over $30,000 (all taxpayer funded, remember) to quiz and test these welfare recipients. Was it worth it?
Only twelve people tested positive of the 400+ required to test…twelve.


Read more: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Looks like these "fiscal conservative" policies arent working out to well. Their witch hunts have failed yet again.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I'd like to know the "400+" number. That could be 401, and honestly that's not a large enough sampling size for me to feel comfortable with the results. I tend to lean liberal when it comes to the economy and I don't see any problem with making sure taxpayers aren't paying straight into anothers needles.

Furthermore, assuming the study is accurate and implemented nationwide, that would be about 129,000 Americans on welfare that shoot up. That number seems a little more significant. (Feel free to check my math on that :p)
 
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Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Read more: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Looks like these "fiscal conservative" policies arent working out to well. Their witch hunts have failed yet again. [/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

How many terrorists were detected at U.S. airports by TSA searches and at what cost? If Utah wants to spend its money doing this then that is their business.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Just because it very likely saves money doesn't mean it's a bad problem.

If you know you will test positive, do yo take the voluntary test? How many do you think never apply for the benefits because they will test positive?

It's still saving more than the $2,500 per positive over time. Seems like a good program to me.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I oppose the program because it presumes guilt. As a society, especially in government aspects, we either believe in "innocent until proven guilty" or we don't. Cherry-picking here and there is simple hypocrisy.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Assuming everything is correct, they identified 12 people for substance abuse treatment while denying no one services. Seems to me left leaning folks would say that was mighty benevolent of them. Again...NO ONE is denied services, even if they test positive.

Working in ERs I can GUARANTEE you...more than 12 in 400 are using drugs.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Read more: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Looks like these "fiscal conservative" policies arent working out to well. Their witch hunts have failed yet again. [/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

Firstly, from what I've seen, the costs were under $27,000, but what's a 10% rounding error.

Secondly, not all welfare recipients were tested - less than 10% were actually tested and about 4% of those tested positive, 9 of which were cut off welfare and 5 who are in treatment.

Finally, with welfare payments being just under $1,000 monthly, those 9 who were cut off the welfare rolls will pay for the testing in about 3 to 4 months.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I oppose the program because it presumes guilt. As a society, especially in government aspects, we either believe in "innocent until proven guilty" or we don't. Cherry-picking here and there is simple hypocrisy.

If you looked at the program it doesn't presume guilt - less than 10% of the state's welfare recipients are tested and only because they were prescreened and determined to be at risk by the administrators who look after their case files. It's hypocrisy to let precious monies in short supply get into the hands of abusers when you have the ability to stop or limit the abuse.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Read more: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Looks like these "fiscal conservative" policies arent working out to well. Their witch hunts have failed yet again. [/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

If those 12 people were eligible for just $10k in benefits each I figure it's cost effective. Keep in mind that 12 of 400 is 3% of the group so it's a significant percentage.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

If you looked at the program it doesn't presume guilt - less than 10% of the state's welfare recipients are tested and only because they were prescreened and determined to be at risk by the administrators who look after their case files. It's hypocrisy to let precious monies in short supply get into the hands of abusers when you have the ability to stop or limit the abuse.

No. Did they pre-screen everybody? Would the negative screening results equal probable cause? If not, then guilt was presumed and the people had to prove their innocence. Period.

What you describe as hypocrisy is not hypocrisy. Bad management, maybe, but not hypocrisy.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

If those 12 people were eligible for just $10k in benefits each I figure it's cost effective. Keep in mind that 12 of 400 is 3% of the group so it's a significant percentage.

from the op

Even if they test positive, they are not kicked off of the welfare program, but instead are required to enter substance abuse programs
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Read more: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Looks like these "fiscal conservative" policies arent working out to well. Their witch hunts have failed yet again. [/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

Looks like the "fiscal conservatives" have a policy that pays for itself. $30,000 is not as expensive as 12 drug users on the welfare payroll.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Looks like the "fiscal conservatives" have a policy that pays for itself. $30,000 is not as expensive as 12 drug users on the welfare payroll.

No.. its more money... because quite frankly.. and many miss this... the vast majority of welfare goes to those with children...

Who do you really think suffers when you stop welfare on a parent with two kids who happens to hit a bong twice a week? Oh that's right.. we are teaching the welfare drug guy a LESSON right....:roll:
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I oppose the program because it presumes guilt. As a society, especially in government aspects, we either believe in "innocent until proven guilty" or we don't. Cherry-picking here and there is simple hypocrisy.

I disagree.

Welfare is intended to be a temporary means of assistance while a person finds work and most jobs require a passing grade on the whiz quiz. It doesn't seem unreasonable for the state to make sure potential recipients have a way to get off the program before they start writing checks. It isn't an alternative to working after all.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I disagree.

Welfare is intended to be a temporary means of assistance while a person finds work and most jobs require a passing grade on the whiz quiz. It doesn't seem unreasonable for the state to make sure potential recipients have a way to get off the program before they start writing checks. It isn't an alternative to working after all.

I don't agree with private business doing it either, as it's still "guilty until proven innocent", and as such demonstrates our collective societal mindset regardless what we preach, but I have less of an issue with it as private enterprise should be more free to dictate its own terms. I believe that the government is a different animal and that government shouldn't have the freedom that private business does as the government represents EVERYBODY, and as such should treat everybody in all situations as innocent until proven guilty.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Good for Utah, they totally helped fund a drug testing lab and got some more mandatory customers for rehab centers the taxpayers get to pay for. It is almost like they are funneling taxpayer money into these things. Drug problem over guys, the utah people busted the last 12 users. I know Utah is small, but 12 people with all that effort?

One thing I do find a little silly. We are worried about them doing illegal drugs, but where is the drug test for alcohol and tobacco? Neither of those are requirements for living, and considering the cost of smokes and booze you could blow your whole TANF check on those substances pretty easily. Certain things they also seem to be missing, you only get TANF for having dependents. If you get knocked off the TANF roles your kids can remain on. Since the parent is responsible for collecting that money and spending it, you really are not cutting them off.

If you want to do something limit TANF spending to products limited to things people need to survive. They alreaduy have an approved list for SNAP and WIC and you cannot purchase other items with those benefits. It is already given out on the same debit card, so just spend that money improving the system. If people are using it for cash to buy drugs you make it inconvenient for them to do so and you will drive the unwanted off of it. But no that will never happen because then people cannot do things like purchase alcohol and tobacco and those lobbies would fight it tooth and nail. So instead you cheer for half assed measures that look like they are doing something when really they are just providing business to friends of the state who own drug labs and rehab facilities.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Firstly, from what I've seen, the costs were under $27,000, but what's a 10% rounding error.

Secondly, not all welfare recipients were tested - less than 10% were actually tested and about 4% of those tested positive, 9 of which were cut off welfare and 5 who are in treatment.

Finally, with welfare payments being just under $1,000 monthly, those 9 who were cut off the welfare rolls will pay for the testing in about 3 to 4 months.

Well, those nine didn't just disappear. Their upkeep came out of the system somehow- in fact, they might be costing more because of the treatment program.
 
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Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

OH...follow on...I'd TRULY love to see what kind of testing they are doing. Most day treatment facilities and parole offices conduct urine tests. Its cheap, easy to administer, and requires very little training.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Well, those nine didn't just disappear. Their upkeep came out of the system somehow- in fact, they might be costing more because of the treatment program.

Maybe so - is that a bad thing? How many drug addicts on welfare ever get off welfare and become productive members of society? Wouldn't the first step be having them take responsibility for their own lives by attending treatment? Seems to me, from the results, 14 people were found to be abusing illegal drugs - 5 of those agreed to go into treatment, and their welfare payments continued, 9 refused treatment and were cut off. You can't force someone to help themselves.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Maybe so - is that a bad thing? How many drug addicts on welfare ever get off welfare and become productive members of society? Wouldn't the first step be having them take responsibility for their own lives by attending treatment? Seems to me, from the results, 14 people were found to be abusing illegal drugs - 5 of those agreed to go into treatment, and their welfare payments continued, 9 refused treatment and were cut off. You can't force someone to help themselves.

forced rehab is a joke. Rehab is for people who have a need and desire to stop. You need both of them. In these cases it is just jumping through the hoops and hoping you do not get tagged again. State mandated rehab is the biggest load of BS because the person still wants to do drugs. It is just a way to funnel money into programs which profit private people. Please do not warp this, because i am not saying all rehab is a joke. However, when you are going to rehab to get the check you are not admitting you have any problem, and you might not actually have a problem. Rehab should not be wated as punishment. it should be available for people who have realized they have a problem and need help. Filling it up with some schmuck who just wants a welfare check wastes everyone's time. If they are going to do the program do it right and boot them off of welfare, don't funnel any small bit of money you save into expensive rehab programs subsidized by the state because these people cannot pay the sliding scale. Someone has to pay, and a sliding scale means the money is coming from a state program to cover the extra because these facilities still have to pay their staff and expenses.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

forced rehab is a joke. Rehab is for people who have a need and desire to stop. You need both of them. In these cases it is just jumping through the hoops and hoping you do not get tagged again. State mandated rehab is the biggest load of BS because the person still wants to do drugs. It is just a way to funnel money into programs which profit private people. Please do not warp this, because i am not saying all rehab is a joke. However, when you are going to rehab to get the check you are not admitting you have any problem, and you might not actually have a problem. Rehab should not be wated as punishment. it should be available for people who have realized they have a problem and need help. Filling it up with some schmuck who just wants a welfare check wastes everyone's time. If they are going to do the program do it right and boot them off of welfare, don't funnel any small bit of money you save into expensive rehab programs subsidized by the state because these people cannot pay the sliding scale. Someone has to pay, and a sliding scale means the money is coming from a state program to cover the extra because these facilities still have to pay their staff and expenses.

Who is being forced? Weren't they given a choice?
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

OH...follow on...I'd TRULY love to see what kind of testing they are doing. Most day treatment facilities and parole offices conduct urine tests. Its cheap, easy to administer, and requires very little training.

I would imagine they are probably doing swabs. Easy to administer, cheap, and you can probably charge a bunch at the lab. They do not want to actually catch anyone on this. Both sides love the welfare because the tax money flows through the recipients into the companies. Swabs are a great way to pretend to scare people, and they suck. I remember the first time i was in probation and they said i was going to be tested. I was scared after that weekend of cocaine, PCP, pot, morphine, vicadin, and extasy. I was a non drug offender and it was supposed to be odd to test us. They did a swab and that was it. Whatever they paid for the stuff and the lab was wasted more than I was.

They just want to pretend to be doing something.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Who is being forced? Weren't they given a choice?

technically yes, but if you need or want the money it is not much of a choice. Especially if you are just some casual user who dinged the test. Go to rehab and play good for the people. That is welfare and social security, get on the wagon and be nice. Give them a success story, and then they like you, just don't get caught cheating which is not terribly hard.
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I would imagine they are probably doing swabs. Easy to administer, cheap, and you can probably charge a bunch at the lab. They do not want to actually catch anyone on this. Both sides love the welfare because the tax money flows through the recipients into the companies. Swabs are a great way to pretend to scare people, and they suck. I remember the first time i was in probation and they said i was going to be tested. I was scared after that weekend of cocaine, PCP, pot, morphine, vicadin, and extasy. I was a non drug offender and it was supposed to be odd to test us. They did a swab and that was it. Whatever they paid for the stuff and the lab was wasted more than I was.

They just want to pretend to be doing something.
You are spot on regarding the money. As far as treatment goes....it doesnt cost anyone any additional dollars (the state or the individuals). The state has already contracted with private agencies to conduct mental health and substance abuse services for the counties. That is a finite pocket of resources once the contract is awarded. The County behavioral health services are required to offer clinical services including substance treatment programs at no cost to medicare/medicaid and unfunded clients. Saying it cost an additional 30k is like saying the war cost 4trillion while ignoring the fact that the military would have used approximately similar amounts of fuel and ordinance training during that same period. It looks like it is costing more..but it isnt.

Almost ALL detox is done on an outpatient day treatment basis these days (with the exception of interacting poly-substance addiction or contributing factors such as known health problems or expressed suicidal ideation. Outpatient substance abuse treatment is cheap (with the exception of med costs).
 
Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

technically yes, but if you need or want the money it is not much of a choice. Especially if you are just some casual user who dinged the test. Go to rehab and play good for the people. That is welfare and social security, get on the wagon and be nice. Give them a success story, and then they like you, just don't get caught cheating which is not terribly hard.
This. The 'rehab' programs are pretty much a joke and it has gotten much worse. It is recommended by the NASW that case managers host no more than a caseload of 25-30 clients. Today...typically...they are carrying anywhere from 90-120. Docs are seeing clients for about 5 minutes to review meds every 3 months. Outpatient 'classes' (if held at all-many are just pencil whipped...sign in here and see you on Tuesday) are canned materials that discusses the dangers of evil drugs with no therapy as to WHY people are on drugs. Oh yeah...and a whole lot of threat an consequence discussed. Oh...and did I mention drug treatment groups are a GREAT place to go and score drugs? People in a court ordered status are typically not there because they WANT to be but because they HAVE to be.

Not to disparage ALL court ordered treatment programs...but the vast majority? Yep. Oh..and once you are court ordered if you ARE private pay...they have your nuts in a vise. Yes...you completed the drug treatment, but we are going to recommend to the judge that before you are released you go through counseling. Under 18 and smoke? Why obviously you need smoking cessation classes. At any time cop to using porn? Hmmmm...with your substance abuse history, problems with what we see as depression, we think you are 'at risk' for committing a sexual crime. We are going to recommend to the judge you go through the NOJOS program. And you are under 21 and have had a drink? Well...there is this whole "not a drop" policy...I think maybe you need treatment til you are 21....
 
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