Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000 (VI

[d0gbreath]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I'd like to know the "400+" number. That could be 401, and honestly that's not a large enough sampling size for me to feel comfortable with the results. I tend to lean liberal when it comes to the economy and I don't see any problem with making sure taxpayers aren't paying straight into anothers needles.

Furthermore, assuming the study is accurate and implemented nationwide, that would be about 129,000 Americans on welfare that shoot up. That number seems a little more significant. (Feel free to check my math on that )

Welfare money can't pay for shooting up. What, are they getting $400/day now?

 

[iacardsfan]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

That "shoot up", I didn't see anything in the article about what kind of drug was tested for or that received positive results. Another thing to consider would be, how long were these people on welfare, how much were they receiving, what happens to them when they can no longer receive welfare. Does it make it more likely that they will resort to crime? Then you have a whole other issue with costs. Just questions.

I do realize that I made a generalization there, and I do understand that not all drug users shoot up. To answer your question about would it increase crime, possibly, but they are committing crimes right now for using drugs (in whatever form). Why are we paying them for doing that, it seems childish.

 

[iacardsfan]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Welfare money can't pay for shooting up. What, are they getting $400/day now?

I understand that, I was making a generalization. I understand that there are many other way to do drugs besides physically shooting up.

 

[Kushinator]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I understand that, I was making a generalization. I understand that there are many other way to do drugs besides physically shooting up.

A very poor generalization at that.

Are you attached to the stigma that heroin is the drug of choice for welfare recipients?

 

[Dapper Andy]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

The human species is amazing in its ability to rationalize.

Yeah because that was an intelligent response to anything said in this discussion.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

Every one of those categories of people you listed are either gainfully employed or as in the case of students, already preparing for a future. Drug addicts as welfare recipients are looking at a lifetime of more of the same unless their circumstance changes.

Totally utterly untrue... that's a myth perpetuated by movies. First.. most people that receive the bulk of welfare money are children, elderly and disabled.. that's fact.. Grandma in the nursing home at 7,000 dollars a month is a heck of a lot more expensive than 400 a month in debit cards. Secondly. TANF.. which is the assistance to needy families? It has a work requirement and is limited to a certain number of months...
Third... drug use is pervasive throughout society...that vast vast majority of drug users have a job. And the test that we are talking about here is not about addiction.. its about USE... and again drug use is pervasive throughout all of society. Not just welfare recipients, or the poor.

I'll give you an example of how pervasive it is. Go watch Legally Blonde with Reese witherspoon. She and her friends play wealthy college students that come from wealthy good homes. At one point in the movie, when she tells her friends that she is going to law school (in order to get her boyfriend back).... her friend quips "couldn't you just take a PERCOCET"...

Now that is absolutely illegal and is a form of drug abuse. But its so pervasive in this country ,, that its a funny point in the movie and no one bats an eye. Now.. if she had said.. "how about doing some meth"... then the reaction would be different...but that's because of the judgement we have a society when it comes to drugs and the poor... That's why when you talk about drug use. and welfare suddenly its "addicts"...

Even though though the doctor, lawyer, banker, and college student are using just as much or more.


And that's basically what is going on here.. legislating morality based on that judgement.

College student getting student loans... high as a kite.. cool
Working mother busting her hump to feed her kids and getting 400 month in food assistance... and smokes pot once a month..."addict"....

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

Totally utterly untrue... that's a myth perpetuated by movies. First.. most people that receive the bulk of welfare money are children, elderly and disabled.. that's fact.. Grandma in the nursing home at 7,000 dollars a month is a heck of a lot more expensive than 400 a month in debit cards. Secondly. TANF.. which is the assistance to needy families? It has a work requirement and is limited to a certain number of months...
Third... drug use is pervasive throughout society...that vast vast majority of drug users have a job. And the test that we are talking about here is not about addiction.. its about USE... and again drug use is pervasive throughout all of society. Not just welfare recipients, or the poor.

I'll give you an example of how pervasive it is. Go watch Legally Blonde with Reese witherspoon. She and her friends play wealthy college students that come from wealthy good homes. At one point in the movie, when she tells her friends that she is going to law school (in order to get her boyfriend back).... her friend quips "couldn't you just take a PERCOCET"...

Now that is absolutely illegal and is a form of drug abuse. But its so pervasive in this country ,, that its a funny point in the movie and no one bats an eye. Now.. if she had said.. "how about doing some meth"... then the reaction would be different...but that's because of the judgement we have a society when it comes to drugs and the poor... That's why when you talk about drug use. and welfare suddenly its "addicts"...

Even though though the doctor, lawyer, banker, and college student are using just as much or more.


And that's basically what is going on here.. legislating morality based on that judgement.

College student getting student loans... high as a kite.. cool
Working mother busting her hump to feed her kids and getting 400 month in food assistance... and smokes pot once a month..."addict"....

Totally and completely true that drug addicts on welfare are facing a lifetime of more of the same. Ive worked with those populations. I know THOUSANDS of people who's existence is centered on drugs and survival. Its not just their lives but you may be shocked to know...they are procreating as well.

But I get it...you want to make this a power to the people down with the man, its all about discrimination man kinda bull****. the fact...FACT...is that people are NOT being denied services. They are being offered assistance to actually change their lives.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I do realize that I made a generalization there, and I do understand that not all drug users shoot up. To answer your question about would it increase crime, possibly, but they are committing crimes right now for using drugs (in whatever form). Why are we paying them for doing that, it seems childish.

Okay, I'll give you that one (the exaggeration)

I was looking at it purely on the basis of the costs. I understand the concept of not letting people get away with cheating but sometimes it costs less to just let them. I personally, think the system needs better oversight.

 

[iacardsfan]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

A very poor generalization at that.

Are you attached to the stigma that heroin is the drug of choice for welfare recipients?

not at all. As I said, simply a generalization.

 

[iacardsfan]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Okay, I'll give you that one (the exaggeration)

I was looking at it purely on the basis of the costs. I understand the concept of not letting people get away with cheating but sometimes it costs less to just let them. I personally, think the system needs better oversight.

I don't disagree that the program needs better oversight, but I also think there has to be a more effective way to recipients for drug use to save tax payer dollars.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

Totally and completely true that drug addicts on welfare are facing a lifetime of more of the same. Ive worked with those populations. I know THOUSANDS of people who's existence is centered on drugs and survival. Its not just their lives but you may be shocked to know...they are procreating as well.

But I get it...you want to make this a power to the people down with the man, its all about discrimination man kinda bull****. the fact...FACT...is that people are NOT being denied services. They are being offered assistance to actually change their lives.

I work with that population also.. and its not just welfare recipients... its the lawyer in town, the physician, the police officer.. its the school teacher... heck maybe its you that drink a fifth of whisky a week and then complain about welfare "addicts" that smoke pot once a month and they procreate too by the way
and its a big difference between someone that uses intermittently, someone who is dependent.. and someone thats addicted... and drug testing doesn't tell the difference

I get it.. you don't want to recognize the facts regarding drug use. So much easier to point to welfare folks as if its not happening elsewhere with other populations. And its not about denying services.. its about privacy and how much right the government should have to make you comply to its morals.

Drug testing does not determine the difference between occasional use, dependency or addiction..

Drug testing does not determine productivity, safety or societal value of people

and most certainly, the government invading someone's privacy,, not matter how "good" the intent should not be done without probable and just cause. Even if its done to a population that its politically acceptable to do it to.

Certainly it would be a "good thing" if we offered treatment for all those using drugs.. so when are you going to sign up for monthly government testing? Remember.. its not a problem but only to help people change their lives..

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

I work with that population also.. and its not just welfare recipients... its the lawyer in town, the physician, the police officer.. its the school teacher... heck maybe its you that drink a fifth of whisky a week and then complain about welfare "addicts" that smoke pot once a month and they procreate too by the way
and its a big difference between someone that uses intermittently, someone who is dependent.. and someone thats addicted... and drug testing doesn't tell the difference

I get it.. you don't want to recognize the facts regarding drug use. So much easier to point to welfare folks as if its not happening elsewhere with other populations. And its not about denying services.. its about privacy and how much right the government should have to make you comply to its morals.

Drug testing does not determine the difference between occasional use, dependency or addiction..

Drug testing does not determine productivity, safety or societal value of people

and most certainly, the government invading someone's privacy,, not matter how "good" the intent should not be done without probable and just cause. Even if its done to a population that its politically acceptable to do it to.

Certainly it would be a "good thing" if we offered treatment for all those using drugs.. so when are you going to sign up for monthly government testing? Remember.. its not a problem but only to help people change their lives..

No...its not 'just' welfare recipients using drugs. However where welfare recipients are concerned, they are receiving their fiscal support from the state. That is why they are subject to the testing and why a lawyer is not.

Ive worked in government jobs where I was drug tested regularly. You know what? I didnt lose my ****ing bladder over it or run around and bitch and whine about how unfair life was.

 

[Kushinator]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

not at all. As I said, simply a generalization.

Shooting up is specific.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

No...its not 'just' welfare recipients using drugs. However where welfare recipients are concerned, they are receiving their fiscal support from the state. That is why they are subject to the testing and why a lawyer is not.

Ive worked in government jobs where I was drug tested regularly. You know what? I didnt lose my ****ing bladder over it or run around and bitch and whine about how unfair life was.

Right.. and farmers, teachers, oil workers, solar power and green energy workers, college students, bankers, autoworkers, doctors, anyone getting a tax credit, anyone getting a subsidy, or government loan, or has a government contract etc.. receives fiscal support from the State... so do you think they all should be subject to testing?


And you know.. we would be a better country.. a much more free country if we DID lose our bladders over losing our privacy and freedom for absolutely no reason. Millions getting drug tested.. since the 1990's when it really began, years and years of drug testing, cost, and invasion of privacy... and the drug use in this country? Unchanged.... but gosh.. we sure did spend a lot o money....somebody got rich.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

Right.. and farmers, teachers, oil workers, solar power and green energy workers, college students, bankers, autoworkers, doctors, anyone getting a tax credit, anyone getting a subsidy, or government loan, or has a government contract etc.. receives fiscal support from the State... so do you think they all should be subject to testing?

And you know.. we would be a better country.. a much more free country if we DID lose our bladders over losing our privacy and freedom for absolutely no reason. Millions getting drug tested.. since the 1990's when it really began, years and years of drug testing, cost, and invasion of privacy... and the drug use in this country? Unchanged.... but gosh.. we sure did spend a lot o money....somebody got rich.

30k on drug tests and treatment and you think someone is 'getting rich' over this?

Those people you keep wetting yourself over...are they WORKING? Are they gainfully employed? Do they have a potential future?

You ****ing people are amazing. You are whining over a program that does NOT take away services and offers people an opportunity to change. ****ing pathetic. No wonder the county behavioral health units are so buried. Waaaaaaaah...its not FAIR! You sound like a 4 year old.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Read more: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Looks like these "fiscal conservative" policies arent working out to well. Their witch hunts have failed yet again. [/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

Over what period of time was this $30,000 spent? If it were spent over the course of a year, and if those twelve were to have been kicked off the rolls, and the benefits those 12 were receiving amounted to more than $208 per month, then the policy would have saved the state money.

The stupidity isn't necessarily in drug-testing welfare recipients. It just requires a very simple financial analysis. If you can snag x-number of substance-using welfare recipients and kick them off the rolls, and the money saved exceeds the cost, you've got an okay policy. The actual stupid part is right... about... here:

Even if they test positive, they are not kicked off of the welfare program, but instead are required to enter substance abuse programs.

 

[d0gbreath]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I understand that, I was making a generalization. I understand that there are many other way to do drugs besides physically shooting up.

They are so insignificant as to be negligible.

 

[iacardsfan]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Shooting up is specific.

Alright, well obviously you are stuck on a minimal detail and have no interest in actually discussing the problem at hand.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

30k on drug tests and treatment and you think someone is 'getting rich' over this?

Those people you keep wetting yourself over...are they WORKING? Are they gainfully employed? Do they have a potential future?

You ****ing people are amazing. You are whining over a program that does NOT take away services and offers people an opportunity to change. ****ing pathetic. No wonder the county behavioral health units are so buried. Waaaaaaaah...its not FAIR! You sound like a 4 year old.

Yes.. 30K here, 100,000 there... do you really think drug testing companies are LOSING MONEY?

Are they working? YES, are they gainfully employed? YES, do they have a potential future? YES...

those are the facts of folks who are not elderly disabled or children who are on welfare. In fact the system requires work, and is only for a set period of time.

YOUR the one that sounds like a raving lunatic...

How many thousands tested.. and what 12 found? In Florida 4, 086 tested and 100 tested positive... but yet you whine and cry about "saving lives" blah blah blah. Its common sense that invading the privacy of thousands of people to find 100 possible drug users is absolutely insanity. yet you continue to try and justify it...

"No wonder the county behavior units are buried".... Well guess what.. THEY ARE NOT BEING BURIED BY THE THAT WHOPPING 12 PEOPLE IN UTAH and the WHOPPING 100 PEOPLE IN FLORIDA...


Hey.. maybe.. just maybe.. the reason that our mental health in this country is insufficient is because we continue to spend time, money and energy on useless programs SUCH AS THIS ONE!!! :doh

 

[Neomalthusian]

Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

Settle the **** down for a second jaeger, take a deep breath, and whip out your calculator. The percentage of people testing positive is irrelevant. The number of people who test positive is irrelevant. What is relevant is the cost to implement the testing policy compared to the money saved for the welfare program if those who do test positive stop receiving money from said welfare program.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,0

Settle the **** down for a second jaeger, take a deep breath, and whip out your calculator. The percentage of people testing positive is irrelevant. The number of people who test positive is irrelevant. What is relevant is the cost to implement the testing policy compared to the money saved for the welfare program if those who do test positive stop receiving money from said welfare program.

Already have... with all due respect.. you might want to whip out your reading glasses as well as your calculator... because in the Utah program.. you know how much money was saved by people who stop receiving money? Zero dollars... because testing positive did NOT remove you from receiving benefits.

On to Florida:

From July through October in Florida — the four months when testing took place before Judge Scriven’s order — 2.6 percent of the state’s cash assistance applicants failed the drug test, or 108 of 4,086, according to the figures from the state obtained by the group. The most common reason was marijuana use. An additional 40 people canceled the tests without taking them.

Because the Florida law requires that applicants who pass the test be reimbursed for the cost, an average of $30, the cost to the state was $118,140. This is more than would have been paid out in benefits to the people who failed the test, Mr. Newton said.

As a result, the testing cost the government an extra $45,780, he said.

And the testing did not have the effect some predicted. An internal document about Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, or TANF, caseloads stated that the drug testing policy, at least from July through September, did not lead to fewer cases.

“We saw no dampening effect on the caseload,” the document said

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/us/no-savings-found-in-florida-welfare-drug-tests.html?_r=0





Second... there is a huge cost in lost privacy, for those thousands that were tested without probable cause. and maybe loss of freedom and privacy for no reason is irrelevant to you, but its not to me.