Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000 (VI

[radcen]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

This. The 'rehab' programs are pretty much a joke and it has gotten much worse. It is recommended by the NASW that case managers host no more than a caseload of 25-30 clients. Today...typically...they are carrying anywhere from 90-120. Docs are seeing clients for about 5 minutes to review meds every 3 months. Outpatient 'classes' (if held at all-many are just pencil whipped...sign in here and see you on Tuesday) are canned materials that discusses the dangers of evil drugs with no therapy as to WHY people are on drugs. Oh yeah...and a whole lot of threat an consequence discussed. Oh...and did I mention drug treatment groups are a GREAT place to go and score drugs? People in a court ordered status are typically not there because they WANT to be but because they HAVE to be.

Not to disparage ALL court ordered treatment programs...but the vast majority? Yep. Oh..and once you are court ordered if you ARE private pay...they have your nuts in a vise. Yes...you completed the drug treatment, but we are going to recommend to the judge that before you are released you go through counseling. Under 18 and smoke? Why obviously you need smoking cessation classes. At any time cop to using porn? Hmmmm...with your substance abuse history, problems with what we see as depression, we think you are 'at risk' for committing a sexual crime. We are going to recommend to the judge you go through the NOJOS program. And you are under 21 and have had a drink? Well...there is this whole "not a drop" policy...I think maybe you need treatment til you are 21....

Yep. The system has evolved into being self-perpetuating. There's no money in actually allowing people to be cured or allowing them to go on their way because they have no real issues.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Yep. The system has evolved into being self-perpetuating. There's no money in actually allowing people to be cured or allowing them to go on their way because they have no real issues.

Wait til you see what the VA has in store for generations of veterans...a lifetime of MST, PTSD, substance abuse, mental health disorders...no cure...but a lifetime of 'treatment'.

 

[P. Kersey]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I oppose the program because it presumes guilt. As a society, especially in government aspects, we either believe in "innocent until proven guilty" or we don't. Cherry-picking here and there is simple hypocrisy.

You're against pre employment drug testing too?

How about DUI tests to determine if a driver is impaired? Against those?

 

[CanadaJohn]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

forced rehab is a joke. Rehab is for people who have a need and desire to stop. You need both of them. In these cases it is just jumping through the hoops and hoping you do not get tagged again. State mandated rehab is the biggest load of BS because the person still wants to do drugs. It is just a way to funnel money into programs which profit private people. Please do not warp this, because i am not saying all rehab is a joke. However, when you are going to rehab to get the check you are not admitting you have any problem, and you might not actually have a problem. Rehab should not be wated as punishment. it should be available for people who have realized they have a problem and need help. Filling it up with some schmuck who just wants a welfare check wastes everyone's time. If they are going to do the program do it right and boot them off of welfare, don't funnel any small bit of money you save into expensive rehab programs subsidized by the state because these people cannot pay the sliding scale. Someone has to pay, and a sliding scale means the money is coming from a state program to cover the extra because these facilities still have to pay their staff and expenses.

What part of my comments and this program is related to "forced" rehab? 14 people failed the drug tests, 5 volunteered to go into treatment, 9 chose not to - who was forced? What's forced is you and me working to get income and having the government confiscate a good portion of it to fund the drug habits of losers on welfare.

And your solution is what, exactly? Keep funnelling welfare checks to people who fail drug tests and don't want to seek help? Gee, that sounds productive. Why not just roll up $20 bills and smoke them or better yet, perhaps you want the government to become their dealer so they can shoot up at the welfare office while they get their pogey.

Believe it or not, welfare isn't an "entitlement" and something you get just for breathing - number one, you have to need it, and number two you have to be using it as a stop-gap on your way to employment and reintegration into productive society. Being a crack head or pot putz is not a good way to get back on the productivity trail.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

They just want to pretend to be doing something.

Unlike you, I suppose, who's comfortable not even attempting to do anything.

 

[uncleray]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

While such a drug testing program for welfare recipients might save money,
a lot more money could be saved if drug testing was mandatory for all board members
of the too-big-to-fail banks accepting corporate welfare as well.
Just sayin'

 

[Binary_Digit]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

If they aren't testing for alcohol use along with other drugs then this program is just another hypocritical dog and pony charade.

 

[Paschendale]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I'm not sure what connection there is between drug use and welfare to justify this testing. I think it is implemented alright enough, since no one is being kicked out of the program, but what is the justification to test welfare recipients as opposed to anyone else? Studies have shown for a while that drug use is lower among the poorest Americans than among the middle class. I understand that there is a perception of poor Americans being drug addicts and spending their welfare money on drugs, but that just doesn't square with the facts. Yes, it is good to help treat drug addicts, and this is a task that society should undertake, but there's nothing to indicate that the 12 were actually addicts, nor is there any reason to target the poor specifically.

 

[P. Kersey]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

While such a drug testing program for welfare recipients might save money,
a lot more money could be saved if drug testing was mandatory for all board members
of the too-big-to-fail banks accepting corporate welfare as well.
Just sayin'

How about we just abolish those programs altogether and drug screen the politicians instead?

 

[uncleray]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

How about we just abolish those programs altogether and drug screen the politicians instead?

I wonder if drug screening is covered under Congress' health plan?
If not, I'll settle for an IQ test, and post the results for each member, Judicial and Executive branch too!

 

[P. Kersey]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I wonder if drug screening is covered under Congress' health plan?
If not, I'll settle for an IQ test, and post the results for each member, Judicial and Executive branch too!

They should have an IQ test BEFORE they run for office...nip the problem in the bud.

 

[ReformCollege]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

No.. its more money... because quite frankly.. and many miss this... the vast majority of welfare goes to those with children...

Who do you really think suffers when you stop welfare on a parent with two kids who happens to hit a bong twice a week? Oh that's right.. we are teaching the welfare drug guy a LESSON right....:roll:

There is a very simple solution to all of this. Stop hitting the bong and start feeding your kids.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

If they aren't testing for alcohol use along with other drugs then this program is just another hypocritical dog and pony charade.

Alcohol use is legal and there are no prohibitions on use. That would be like testing for nicotine.

 

[ReformCollege]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I'm not sure what connection there is between drug use and welfare to justify this testing. I think it is implemented alright enough, since no one is being kicked out of the program, but what is the justification to test welfare recipients as opposed to anyone else? Studies have shown for a while that drug use is lower among the poorest Americans than among the middle class. I understand that there is a perception of poor Americans being drug addicts and spending their welfare money on drugs, but that just doesn't square with the facts. Yes, it is good to help treat drug addicts, and this is a task that society should undertake, but there's nothing to indicate that the 12 were actually addicts, nor is there any reason to target the poor specifically.

It has less to do with a perception that all poor people are using drugs and a lot more to do with the disgust when you do hear about the one or two cases where welfare recipients are using welfare money for tattoos, booze, and lobster. Middle class Americans may use more drugs then the poor, but so what? They aren't doing it on the public dime.

 

[Dapper Andy]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I don't agree with private business doing it either, as it's still "guilty until proven innocent", and as such demonstrates our collective societal mindset regardless what we preach, but I have less of an issue with it as private enterprise should be more free to dictate its own terms. I believe that the government is a different animal and that government shouldn't have the freedom that private business does as the government represents EVERYBODY, and as such should treat everybody in all situations as innocent until proven guilty.

It's not "guilty until proven innocent". It's part of the interview process, the same way a business checks to see if you have other requirements to do the job.

Regardless of your view on this, surely you're aware that it's extremely common for businesses to check for drugs and a drug addict is basically making themselves unemployable. Why should the state pay for someone who is choosing to be unemployable?

 

[WhyNotWhyNot]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

I'm not sure what connection there is between drug use and welfare to justify this testing.

I am quite sure - NONE! Our Federal Government learned long ago to never give money for any purpose without including hooks that make the recipient beholden to controls by the government. This includes everything from foriegn aid, to road construction funding, to education funding, to welfare. Our state and local governments (Utah in this case) have learned well from the Federal Government leadership on this strategy of control and manipulation. Once the hooks are set, the governments pile on auditing and record keeping to verify their implementation - which piles on overhead with minimal control that, in turn, reduces program efficiency and enlarges government influence further. All this is justified as necessary protection of public funds.

 

[Paschendale]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

It has less to do with a perception that all poor people are using drugs and a lot more to do with the disgust when you do hear about the one or two cases where welfare recipients are using welfare money for tattoos, booze, and lobster. Middle class Americans may use more drugs then the poor, but so what? They aren't doing it on the public dime.

So what if they're not paying for it using money from public programs? What if they get it for free? What if they grown their own pot plants? There's too much assumption fueling too much intrusion to justify it. And why does your disgust (or anyone's) justify curtailing someone else's privacy so much? Merely being a taxpayer doesn't give any of us standing to complain. We all benefit from the efforts and expenditure of tax money (some, like big corporations, benefit a whole lot more than anyone else), including expenditures to keep people from starvation and desperation. Keep in mind that most welfare recipients are not lifetime dependents on it, and have paid plenty of taxes in the past and will pay plenty more in the future. Why is the use of drugs by people currently in need of help so much more repugnant than someone who needed help last year, or will need help next year?

 

[ReformCollege]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

So what if they're not paying for it using money from public programs? What if they get it for free? What if they grown their own pot plants? There's too much assumption fueling too much intrusion to justify it. And why does your disgust (or anyone's) justify curtailing someone else's privacy so much? Merely being a taxpayer doesn't give any of us standing to complain. We all benefit from the efforts and expenditure of tax money (some, like big corporations, benefit a whole lot more than anyone else), including expenditures to keep people from starvation and desperation. Keep in mind that most welfare recipients are not lifetime dependents on it, and have paid plenty of taxes in the past and will pay plenty more in the future. Why is the use of drugs by people currently in need of help so much more repugnant than someone who needed help last year, or will need help next year?

They lose their privacy the moment they take my money. If they want privacy for what they purchase, they can use their own money.

Same for corporations.

 

[Tettsuo]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

If I'm understand this correctly, Conservatives want to kick drug addicted welfare recipients off of assistance if they test positive.

The problem is, most assistance goes to feeding children. If the person is single and able to work, I'm fine with stringent rules regarding what they can get from our government (don't want to become enablers). But, when children are involved, we hurt them for their parents bad behavior. That's not fair and only hurts America's future (malnutrition has a huge impact of brain development).

This doesn't sound like a reasonable policy that'll improve America.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

What part of my comments and this program is related to "forced" rehab? 14 people failed the drug tests, 5 volunteered to go into treatment, 9 chose not to - who was forced? What's forced is you and me working to get income and having the government confiscate a good portion of it to fund the drug habits of losers on welfare.

And your solution is what, exactly? Keep funnelling welfare checks to people who fail drug tests and don't want to seek help? Gee, that sounds productive. Why not just roll up $20 bills and smoke them or better yet, perhaps you want the government to become their dealer so they can shoot up at the welfare office while they get their pogey.

Believe it or not, welfare isn't an "entitlement" and something you get just for breathing - number one, you have to need it, and number two you have to be using it as a stop-gap on your way to employment and reintegration into productive society. Being a crack head or pot putz is not a good way to get back on the productivity trail.

Just to point out.. you don't have to have money to get drugs. This idea that by reducing welfare you are reducing their habit simply doesn't work in the real world. I know. I have had patients explain it to me. I had one patient in an group treatment home, that was complaining about why they restricted her money (all money went to a managed account where her bills were paid with supervision)... I told her that it made sense to me, since with less cash in her pocket, she would be less likely to fall off the wagon. She laughed at me and said :you don't need money to get high"... She then explained you went to your dealer and said you wanted to get high but had no money. He/she would give you 10 hits and you would be told to sell 8 for him/her and you could keep the other two.

Amazing business model. But true. And that's why legislating morality simply doesn't work.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Just to point out.. you don't have to have money to get drugs. This idea that by reducing welfare you are reducing their habit simply doesn't work in the real world. I know. I have had patients explain it to me. I had one patient in an group treatment home, that was complaining about why they restricted her money (all money went to a managed account where her bills were paid with supervision)... I told her that it made sense to me, since with less cash in her pocket, she would be less likely to fall off the wagon. She laughed at me and said :you don't need money to get high"... She then explained you went to your dealer and said you wanted to get high but had no money. He/she would give you 10 hits and you would be told to sell 8 for him/her and you could keep the other two.

Amazing business model. But true. And that's why legislating morality simply doesn't work.

Sounds fine to me as long as the upstanding young lady you refer to wasn't supplementing her illegal income with welfare on the taxpayer's dime. I'm not legislating morality - simply saying I'm not going to reward you with cash for illegal activity.

 

[Kushinator]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Furthermore, assuming the study is accurate and implemented nationwide, that would be about 129,000 Americans on welfare that shoot up. That number seems a little more significant. (Feel free to check my math on that )

Testing positive for drugs is equivalent to shooting up? :lamo

You obviously spent too much time on simple arithmetic and little on understanding the science behind drug testing.

 

[ocean515]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Just to point out.. you don't have to have money to get drugs. This idea that by reducing welfare you are reducing their habit simply doesn't work in the real world. I know. I have had patients explain it to me. I had one patient in an group treatment home, that was complaining about why they restricted her money (all money went to a managed account where her bills were paid with supervision)... I told her that it made sense to me, since with less cash in her pocket, she would be less likely to fall off the wagon. She laughed at me and said :you don't need money to get high"... She then explained you went to your dealer and said you wanted to get high but had no money. He/she would give you 10 hits and you would be told to sell 8 for him/her and you could keep the other two.

Amazing business model. But true. And that's why legislating morality simply doesn't work.

So a dealer would give a drug addict with no money 10 hits for free, believing the drug addict would return with the money for the extra 8 hits?

I'm thinking something got lost in the translation.

 

[Paschendale]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

They lose their privacy the moment they take my money. If they want privacy for what they purchase, they can use their own money.

Same for corporations.

So why don't you lose it when you benefit from public money? There is no one who doesn't. The roads you drive on, the medicine you take when you're sick, the law enforcement that protects you, the farm subsidies that pay for growing your food, the research that has gone into most of the technology you enjoy. Why doesn't that strip you of privacy, but it does for poor people?

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Utah Welfare Drug Testing Results Find Only 12 Drug Users at Cost of Over $30,000

Sounds fine to me as long as the upstanding young lady you refer to wasn't supplementing her illegal income with welfare on the taxpayer's dime. I'm not legislating morality - simply saying I'm not going to reward you with cash for illegal activity.

No illegal income.... she was not being paid for the selling drugs. just free stuff... and yes.. she had been and was on welfare and social security. Point being, taking her money away from her would do nothing to change her drug habits..so there is no "rewarding her for illegal activity.

The reason that she is getting money is because of her disability and her inability to find a job she is capable of doing and to support her two children. Whether she takes drugs or not... is really immaterial... UNLESS you are concerned about legislating morality. Otherwise , there is so many other factors involved... there are folks that smoke pot, and work two jobs and still get welfare because they don't make enough.. even though they hump everyday...

then there are others that could work, choose not to, have more kids they cannot support so they can get more aid..

If you give money to the one that's lazy and doesn't try
and not give money to the worker because they smoke pot... you are most certainly legislating morality;.