using deaths of military personal in debates...

[ADK_Forever]

There are reasons to stay and reasons to pullout. It’s debated all over the news, internet, and this very forum. But don’t throw around the deaths of Marines and Soldiers to better your argument of why we should leave Iraq and Afghanistan. If you truly respect those who have lost their lives, don’t do it…

It's their deaths that their country is concerned about. To stay in a loosing war for the "sake of those who have died" would be a true dishonor to their memory, to what they stood for.

Instead of having to look at situations like that... backwards, our political leaders need to make better decisions about why and when we go to war so that we don't get forced into the situation of getting out for the simple reason that we never should have gotten in in the first place. That is pure stupidity.

 

[apdst]

This is the ugly downside of getting all Gung Ho for combat and then not being trained how to throttle it back. The military "could" do a much better job at this. They just choose not to.

Kudos to your hubby for turning his situation around. From what I read, more and more are not able to make that adjustment back into civilian life. I believe the suicide and domestic violence rates are the highest they've ever been. It's a damn shame.

It's called human emotion. There's not much the military can do about that, nor should they.

Speaking from personal experience, I want a platoon of heartbreakers and lifetakers. if I have soldiers who are going to, "throttle it back", in the middle of a firefight, we'll see too many friendly casualties and not enough enemy casualties.

 

[1069]

Your error is, VoodooChild is a serving member of the military. His opinion counts more than your's, unless, of course, you are a serving member of the United States military. Are you?

You have the wife of a soldier (Spiker) and the mother of another (me) telling you that you're not right.
If every US service member joined for the sole reason of wanting to be deployed so they can kill insurgents, why do so many choose non-combat MOS's?
Any rational person is perfectly well aware that not all US service members think with a single mind.
We all know service members; many of us know them intimately.
Don't speak for our loved ones.
Don't tell us what they feel.

Anyone, in the military, has more moral authority than anyone who isn't in the military, to explain why they decided to serve their country. That's his right. He earned it when he took up arms to serve this great nation of ours. No one in, or out, of uniform has the right to tell him he's wrong.

It is his right to tell us what he feels and why he joined the service, and no one here should contradict him, since we're not psychic and have no access to his thought processes, other than what he tells us.
I, for one, am always interested to hear from service members about their ideas and experiences.
It is not his prerogative, however, to tell us what other service members feel, or why other service members joined, and expect no disagreement.
His uniform gives him no "moral authority" to do that.

 

[apdst]

You have the wife of a soldier (Spiker) and the mother of another (me) telling you that you're not right.
If every US service member joined for the sole reason of wanting to be deployed so they can kill insurgents, why do so many choose non-combat MOS's?
Any rational person is perfectly well aware that not all US service members think with a single mind.
We all know service members; many of us know them intimately.
Don't speak for our loved ones.
Don't tell us what they feel.

Please, show me where I spoke for your loved ones? Thanks in advance.

It is his right to tell us what he feels and why he joined the service, and no one here should contradict him, since we're not psychic and have no access to his thought processes, other than what he tells us.
I, for one, am always interested to hear from service members about their ideas and experiences.
It is not his prerogative, however, to tell us what other service members feel, or why other service members joined, and expect no disagreement.
His uniform gives him no "moral authority" to do that.

If you would be so kind as to re-read my post, you'll see that that is exactly what I said. Thank you...that is all!

When you actually where the uniform, then you can preach to me. Until then...at ease!!

 

[ADK_Forever]

It's called human emotion. There's not much the military can do about that, nor should they.

Speaking from personal experience, I want a platoon of heartbreakers and lifetakers. if I have soldiers who are going to, "throttle it back", in the middle of a firefight, we'll see too many friendly casualties and not enough enemy casualties.

Reading comprehension really isn't high on your list of important skills is it? In thread after thread you misunderstand what people post. :roll: Or is it that you intentionally twist their meaning?

When I mentioned "throttling it back" I was obviously talking, and the gist of the conversation was, about when soldiers get out of the military.

You can play ignorant on how an oil rig works until the cows come home. I don't care. But, don't twist my words on an issue like this. Some of us have family and friends over in those hell holes and want them to assimilate into our society, and their families, as best they can when they come home. Grow up sonny.

 

[ADK_Forever]

When you actually where the uniform, then you can preach to me. Until then...at ease!!

I have a NEWS FLASH for ya pal, we all get the same number of votes, one. You don't get more votes if you "where" a uniform, if you "wear" a uniform or if you never stepped foot on a military installation. We ALL get a say.

Carry on private.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Obama's never been in uniform.

And he's our Commander and Chief, now - he can send you where his two pretty legs will NEVER dare to go.

So, yes, whether you're in or out doesn't matter much.

So much for that point.

 

[1069]

Obama's never been in uniform.

And he's our Commander and Chief, now - he can send you where his two pretty legs will NEVER dare to go.

So, yes, whether you're in or out doesn't matter much.

So much for that point.

It's been a very long time since we've had a president who was ever in the military, let alone fought in a war.
There was McCain, and there was Kerry... but of course, they didn't win.
Biden's son is in the military, I believe, and was in Iraq in 2008. I've heard whispers that he might be a future democratic nominee.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

It's been a very long time since we've had a president who was ever in the military, let alone fought in a war.
There was McCain, and there was Kerry... but of course, they didn't win.
Biden's son is in the military, I believe, and was in Iraq in 2008. I've heard whispers that he might be a future democratic nominee.

Yeah, people feel that it's fine to not have militayr experience if you're going to be in charge of our entire armed forces.

I beg to differ :shrug:

 

[apdst]

I have a NEWS FLASH for ya pal, we all get the same number of votes, one. You don't get more votes if you "where" a uniform, if you "wear" a uniform or if you never stepped foot on a military installation. We ALL get a say.

Carry on private.

Oh, you do get a say. My point is, that your opinion is less credible than Voodoo's opinion. That's all.

 

[apdst]

Reading comprehension really isn't high on your list of important skills is it? In thread after thread you misunderstand what people post. :roll: Or is it that you intentionally twist their meaning?

When I mentioned "throttling it back" I was obviously talking, and the gist of the conversation was, about when soldiers get out of the military.

You can play ignorant on how an oil rig works until the cows come home. I don't care. But, don't twist my words on an issue like this. Some of us have family and friends over in those hell holes and want them to assimilate into our society, and their families, as best they can when they come home. Grow up sonny.

People who come back from the battlefield ****ed up, had problems before they went. Combat only brought it to the surface. Just more actual experience.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

People who come back from the battlefield ****ed up, had problems before they went. Combat only brought it to the surface. Just more actual experience.

Where in the hell did that come from? "They had problems before they went . . . that's the only reason why they came back with issues" - are you a psychologist? Pray tell, are you in their heads?

People come back ****ed up because they've been blown up and shot at - they come back ****ed up because they didn't have a solid nights sleep for over a year.

Those who come back without problems - yeah, goodie for them. Share the secret. Thousands and thousands would like to know how to get back to normal.

 

[Dezaad]

It does not matter if individual Marines don't mind dying for a stupid, misguided or hopeless cause. I mind. And so do alot of other Americans, and our opinions matter just as much as the Marines who are willing. In most cases, our opinions are more well thought out, because we are older and have more experience thinking about these things. We are also removed from the situation, and can provide perspective.

As for the Afghanistan war, I believe that what we are doing there is important, relevant and worthwhile. I am thankful for the Marines and other service members who are willing to die for my protection. But, I am not happy that they are dying, and each one I read about causes me to reassess whether it is worth it, and will continue to do so. I like my attitude about the matter much better than some callous person who gives no thought to the ultimate cost of war. I really don't think that we really want a society or policy that takes that calculation out of the equation. I mean, really.

 

[apdst]

Where in the hell did that come from? "They had problems before they went . . . that's the only reason why they came back with issues" - are you a psychologist? Pray tell, are you in their heads?

People come back ****ed up because they've been blown up and shot at - they come back ****ed up because they didn't have a solid nights sleep for over a year.

Those who come back without problems - yeah, goodie for them. Share the secret. Thousands and thousands would like to know how to get back to normal.

No, not a shrink. An actual combat soldier. Just speaking from personal experience. IMO, it's the people that vets come home to that cause most of the problems, with their lack of understanding as to what is actually going on in that person's grape. More than that, it's the inability of those people to openly admit that they have no clue and their insistance that they can, "help". I've noticed that in some cases the, "help", only made things worse.

The secret, IMO, is don't talk to people who haven't a single goddamn clue about what it's like to serve on a battlefield.

Your idea that sleep deprivation is a leading cause of PTSD only serves to prove my point.

 

[apdst]

It does not matter if individual Marines don't mind dying for a stupid, misguided or hopeless cause. I mind. And so do alot of other Americans, and our opinions matter just as much as the Marines who are willing.In most cases, our opinions are more well thought out, because we are older and have more experience thinking about these things. We are also removed from the situation, and can provide perspective.

As for the Afghanistan war, I believe that what we are doing there is important, relevant and worthwhile. I am thankful for the Marines and other service members who are willing to die for my protection. But, I am not happy that they are dying, and each one I read about causes me to reassess whether it is worth it, and will continue to do so. I like my attitude about the matter much better than some callous person who gives no thought to the ultimate cost of war. I really don't think that we really want a society or policy that takes that calculation out of the equation. I mean, really.

Actually, your opinion doesn't matter as much as a serving member of the military. You wanna think it does, but trust me, it doesn't.

 

[1069]

Actually, your opinion doesn't matter as much as a serving member of the military. You wanna think it does, but trust me, it doesn't.

Really. Because we all know that service members get two votes, while civilians only get one.

Oh, wait a minute... :doh

 

[Aunt Spiker]

No, not a shrink. An actual combat soldier. Just speaking from personal experience. IMO, it's the people that vets come home to that cause most of the problems, with their lack of understanding as to what is actually going on in that person's grape. More than that, it's the inability of those people to openly admit that they have no clue and their insistance that they can, "help". I've noticed that in some cases the, "help", only made things worse.

The secret, IMO, is don't talk to people who haven't a single goddamn clue about what it's like to serve on a battlefield.

Your idea that sleep deprivation is a leading cause of PTSD only serves to prove my point.

To the bolded, first, I never said that sleep deprivation is a leading cause of PTSD. I didn't remotely imply that - you read into what I wrote and tried to draw a conclusion. (See post #15 for my thoughts on the issue)

My husband is a soldier - and he helps soldiers adjust when they come home so I speak knowing all the experiences he's gone through and all the people he's helped. . .war changes people, regardless of what you say and how you feel about it, it changes people. Not everyone sure, there are those who have no issues - but quite a few, absolutely.

Your point in this quoted post is different than your point in the previous post.
In the first post you said that "people had problems before the left . . ." as a prelude to their post-war issues.
However, in this post you point to "the people they come home to . . . and their lack of understanding" as to why they have issues.

While I disagree with the first point, I do agree with the second point. Yes - family and friends can make things more complicated. . . which is why therapy and FRG meetings, etc, for the family is great - but can't cure all issues and answer all questions.

One of the issues my husband faced when coming home was the kids - the kids got under his skin. He was away from them for 16 months, coming home, the baby that was born while he was deployed was almost a year old. . .the balance in the house had shifted - all the kids were older, we had a different home-routine. Things were different for him when he came home than they were before he left, that was the hardest thing to adjust to - life was different. On top of having all the kids - I was still recovering from pregnancy related health issues, I, up until he came home, had to have help from my Mom. That was different, too, having her come over often and so on - things were just strange for him.

It took me (all of us, really) years to sort through some of the stuff that happened after my husband came back. It wasn't his first deployment, that's for sure, but he came home with issues that definitely weren't there before (before as in - long before we even met).

 

[apdst]

Really. Because we all know that service members get two votes, while civilians only get one.

Oh, wait a minute... :doh

Where did I say anything about a, "vote"? Is a vote and an opinion the same thing, now? I musta-notta-got the memo on that one.

 

[apdst]

To the bolded, first, I never said that sleep deprivation is a leading cause of PTSD. I didn't remotely imply that - you read into what I wrote and tried to draw a conclusion. (See post #15 for my thoughts on the issue)

My husband is a soldier - and he helps soldiers adjust when they come home so I speak knowing all the experiences he's gone through and all the people he's helped. . .war changes people, regardless of what you say and how you feel about it, it changes people. Not everyone sure, there are those who have no issues - but quite a few, absolutely.

Your point in this quoted post is different than your point in the previous post.
In the first post you said that "people had problems before the left . . ." as a prelude to their post-war issues.
However, in this post you point to "the people they come home to . . . and their lack of understanding" as to why they have issues.

While I disagree with the first point, I do agree with the second point. Yes - family and friends can make things more complicated. . . which is why therapy and FRG meetings, etc, for the family is great - but can't cure all issues and answer all questions.

One of the issues my husband faced when coming home was the kids - the kids got under his skin. He was away from them for 16 months, coming home, the baby that was born while he was deployed was almost a year old. . .the balance in the house had shifted - all the kids were older, we had a different home-routine. Things were different for him when he came home than they were before he left, that was the hardest thing to adjust to - life was different. On top of having all the kids - I was still recovering from pregnancy related health issues, I, up until he came home, had to have help from my Mom. That was different, too, having her come over often and so on - things were just strange for him.

It took me (all of us, really) years to sort through some of the stuff that happened after my husband came back. It wasn't his first deployment, that's for sure, but he came home with issues that definitely weren't there before (before as in - long before we even met).

It appears that we're on the same sheet of music, mostly. Thank you!

 

[ADK_Forever]

Actually, your opinion doesn't matter as much as a serving member of the military. You wanna think it does, but trust me, it doesn't.

Actually, non military opinions should matter more. Some have said that they went into the military to blow this up, to shoot things and to kill people. Basically, little boys' dreams of being GI Joe. Those folks are the ones whose opinions should matter the least! Their heads aren't on political issues, only tactical issues, and keeping their heads, which have nothing to do with decisions like "should we or shouldn't we get out of this war?" That is why it doesn't matter what the guys in the field fighting have to say in any poll.

Don't get me wrong. They deserve our undying gratitude and support. They just should not control the big issues. They are too close to them to be objective.

Also, any person who joins just to kill people wear the patriot hat only as a secondary reason for being there. They didn't join to defend their country. They joined to kill. It is a subtle difference but, it is a difference.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Oh good lord, just stop it.

Everyone's thoughts and ideas are just as valuable or as important as the next guy's. We need the variety - pro-tactical VS non-tactical, inside the loop VS outside the loop. . . and so on.
I'm a parent - does that mean that non-parents cannot advise, suggest or give an opinion on issues I have with my kids? Of course not. Vise versa. Someone who is a non-parent or who doesn't have their life wrapped up in my point of view might have an idea i never considered. Likewise, I might have one that he or she has never considered.

The key behind any success when it comes to making the best decisions for any number of people is to consider ALL options and ALL pathways and then try to choose which one is the best, most efficient and considerate. . . it's hard.

We all, here, know this is how the world works - why is this being debated?

Have you noticed that the stances that Washington takes can go either way - sometimes favoring the view of the public. Sometimes favoring the view of other countries. Sometimes favoring the view of our personnel . . .? Obviously it fluctuates as to what, why and how thing are considered. Based on this - it's a complete strawman to claim that *only* one or the other view is what *really* matters.

 

[Dezaad]

Actually, your opinion doesn't matter as much as a serving member of the military. You wanna think it does, but trust me, it doesn't.

Actually, I am afraid mine generally does matter more. I have more time to devote to activism, if I so choose. I have more money than the average service member to contribute political campaigns. And so forth. So, the reality is that my opinion does matter more, if we're talking about effect. That's just the way it is.

It may not matter more to YOU. But, I really don't care about that.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Actually, I am afraid mine generally does matter more. I have more time to devote to activism, if I so choose. I have more money than the average service member to contribute political campaigns. And so forth. So, the reality is that my opinion does matter more, if we're talking about effect. That's just the way it is.

It may not matter more to YOU. But, I really don't care about that.

My husband has heavy influence in the military which superceedes your activism and the pencil pusher's sway :mrgreen I win.

See post #46 . . . debating this is moot.

 

[samsmart]

Your error is, VoodooChild is a serving member of the military. His opinion counts more than your's, unless, of course, you are a serving member of the United States military. Are you?

While I may not have served in the military, my tax dollars, and the tax dollars of many others who haven't served, go to fund the military. When the military no longer asks for money from those who haven't served is when those who haven't served have no say in military affairs.

Whoever puts the money in the jukebox is whoever gets to pick the song.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

While I may not have served in the military, my tax dollars, and the tax dollars of many others who haven't served, go to fund the military. When the military no longer asks for money from those who haven't served is when those who haven't served have no say in military affairs.

Whoever puts the money in the jukebox is whoever gets to pick the song.

We're talking about real people's lives, jobs and overall welfare and security.
Not a damn jukebox.

Everyone's opinions matter equally. . . and if I were in a jukebox I'd be a broken record.