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USA Is Communist!

Axismaster

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You better believe it is communist! It just pains my heart to see many of my fellow free marketeers supporting the same Bush that practices administration communist subsidizing of major corporations for all of their own benefit. Yes, we are communist, and yes, it is a master plan thought up in the past few decades. Kruschev said that Americans can simply be given little doses of communism until they are ready for the true thing.
 

FinnMacCool

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I never thought communism was entirely a bad thing but I don't think it can work the way Marx envisioned it. It's always gonna end up turning into a Stalinist 1984 bullshit thing. I don't even believe most forms of socialism can work anymore. I actually believe we should be as free market as humanely possible but at the same time making sure businesses don't get political power.
 

Axismaster

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FinnMacCool said:
I never thought communism was entirely a bad thing but I don't think it can work the way Marx envisioned it. It's always gonna end up turning into a Stalinist 1984 bullshit thing. I don't even believe most forms of socialism can work anymore. I actually believe we should be as free market as humanely possible but at the same time making sure businesses don't get political power.
I heartily agree. I strongly support free market capitalism. Some people are in disdain of it because they associate it with this administration's policies, but I remind them they are not. In a truly free market, businesses would not be subsidized by the state, have lobbying power, or be able to use the state to keep smaller businesses pinned down, which they do. Indeed, it is like fascism. In fact Mussolini said a better word for fascism was corporatism because it is the merging of business in state. Us true free marketeers support the seperation of the two within reason.
 

FinnMacCool

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In a perfect world, that would be true. However, money helps make all things possible. Thats why a completely free market wouldn't work. You would HOPE that politicians would do the right thing but they usually don't. If some busness man waved a couple thousand dollars in his face, he might be inclined to make a few different decisions.
 

Axismaster

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FinnMacCool said:
In a perfect world, that would be true. However, money helps make all things possible. Thats why a completely free market wouldn't work. You would HOPE that politicians would do the right thing but they usually don't. If some busness man waved a couple thousand dollars in his face, he might be inclined to make a few different decisions.
That's why we need to make government as small as possible, so it is easier to weed out the corrupt ones like that. Really, the bigger government is, the more of a shield it provides to the Tom Delays of the world. If government was small, he would have been exposed ten years ago.
 

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My idea of a good TV show involves throwing the commies and the Nazi's<-----(socialists) into a pit, watch them duke it out, then the winner get's shot.

Hey, I can dream can't I?


For you free market types, I read this book, it's SciFi but a Liberatarian's paradise.. Down with the UN!!! My only problem with the book is the cover, he really needs to change it!!!

Freehold
By: Michale Z. Williamson
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...002-2083693-6386444?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

The author's website
http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/index.php
 

Billo_Really

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The US is not communist. It is an Oligarchy.
 

UtahBill

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The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.
Engels came from a rich British family that owned textile mills and this was during the time that England used child labor in those mills. The conditions were horrible for them, they were treated more like prisoners than anything else. Engels hated it, and thought that we as human beings can do better.
So Engels was exposed to the harsh realities of unchecked, rampant, free market capitalism.
True communism has never existed on this planet, and never will. Too many of us humans are too selfish and greedy. We want it all, we want to be top dog, we want to be on the front page of Forbes Magazine. And you don't get there by sharing the wealth with anybody.
Is that the kind of capitalism you want?
Not all aspects of capitalism are good, and not all aspects of communism or socialism are bad.
 

Valis

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Finn, I do know a few personally...I'm ashamed to admit.



UtahBill said:
The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.
Engels came from a rich British family that owned textile mills and this was during the time that England used child labor in those mills. The conditions were horrible for them, they were treated more like prisoners than anything else. Engels hated it, and thought that we as human beings can do better.
So Engels was exposed to the harsh realities of unchecked, rampant, free market capitalism.
True communism has never existed on this planet, and never will. Too many of us humans are too selfish and greedy. We want it all, we want to be top dog, we want to be on the front page of Forbes Magazine. And you don't get there by sharing the wealth with anybody.
Is that the kind of capitalism you want?
Not all aspects of capitalism are good, and not all aspects of communism or socialism are bad.
Nature of extremes. However, we do not have a Capitalis society, we have a corporatist one.

And we do not and have never had a true free market society either.
 

Comrade Brian

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Valis said:
Nature of extremes. However, we do not have a Capitalis society, we have a corporatist one.

And we do not and have never had a true free market society either.
Strange then how corporations are capitalistic. And how corporations sprung out of capitalists.

But we do not have a truly free-market society, but to have one would be stupid.
 

Valis

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Strange then how corporations are capitalistic. And how corporations sprung out of capitalists.
uhhhhh, oookayyyee


But we do not have a truly free-market society, but to have one would be stupid.
Oh, and why is that? Because people would get wealthy? Private non corporate enterprise would flourish? Or more importantly, less would support communism..
 

Comrade Brian

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Valis said:
Oh, and why is that? Because people would get wealthy? Private non corporate enterprise would flourish? Or more importantly, less would support communism..
Actually a truly free-market would not run on everyone being wealthy, you always need "armies" of workers. Especially unemployed so that labor is an endless resource. Also since then many must be poor and since nothing externally can prop them up, creates perfect conditions for a "proletarian revolution". So in fact more would be in support of communism to help lift them out, to spread around wealth. So infact I might as well support an entirely "free-market" and "privatised" system because more people will then be in support of communism. But also I believe capitalism will collapse, though govt. slows that down to a "walk" rather than "run". But also more are chanting for more privatisation than in the past so overall we will achieve this just the same.
 

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I don't think so Comrade. The U.S. is in transition from a representive constituional republic to a full blown social-democratic police state. And a bankrupted one at that.
 

Comrade Brian

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We are nowhere near the Social Democratic position, in fact we have been drifting further away from that position since the '40s when we were probably closest.
 

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socialist democracy will never work. it is human nature to want more.

capitalism is a system that rewards those that deserve to be rewarded, which is why i am a capitalist. a strict caste system is required so as to keep those that leech off of others and those that actually deserve wealth separate.

armies of workers are indeed needed, but if you ask me, they shouldn't complain. capitalism doesn't bind anyone to anything. if lower class workers feel they are being treated unfairly, they should think up their own innovative idea, and start their own business. no ones stopping them.

socialism creates laziness, and allows the weak to survive. i believe in evolution: survival of the fittest. eliminate those that cannot or will not get up and work to actually earn their pay.
 

torch

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Well, what is communism? Isnt it when basically everyone has to agree to what the government says, and they split people up in classes...well then that's america...It always made me laugh when the america media blares how russia, china, and the middle east is communists for putting people in classes just like america does...We have the rich who do nothing but force us to think like they do, the middle class who do all the work, and poor who gets blamed for all america's problems...they call that capitolism but they are the same if you think real hard...George Orwell's "1984" book was written in the 1940's and yet everything that's written in there is exactly how america is....the politicans, celebrities, sports stars faces all on billboards, buildings and commercials (just like the mustache big brother man if anyone of you saw the movie "1984") The extreme patriotism, the military police comming and putting you in camps...one guy who talked about george orwell on the history channel said that "Orwell wrote that based on nazi germany" Umm..the book is called "1984" not "1945".. there is actuall a show called "big brother" and its about 12 people living is a house full of cameras of everything they do...and in when they go to commercial there is an actual eye ball of someone and the big brother logo..(the all seeing eye like on the dollar bill)
 

Comrade Brian

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it is human nature to want more.
Define "human nature" to a more refined definition than "greedy".
capitalism is a system that rewards those that deserve to be rewarded, which is why i am a capitalist.
So what is a CEO or inherentant rewarded for? Neither really did anything for that.
if lower class workers feel they are being treated unfairly, they should think up their own innovative idea
Such as socialism?
and start their own business
So everyone is a business-owner? Who sells their labour-power then?
believe in evolution: survival of the fittest.
That is not evolution, evolution is the survival of those most reactive to change. It also sort of fits the evolution of societies too.
eliminate those that cannot or will not get up and work to actually earn their pay.
So eliminate the Bourgeoisie then?
Well, what is communism? Isnt it when basically everyone has to agree to what the government says
No.
they split people up in classes
That is because your class is determined by your relation to social production. E.g. a Proletarian is someone who must rely on selling their labour-power, in order to live, they are bought in the form of wages, he lives on wages. A Bourgeois for exmple, is the owner of capital, he buys the labour-power and whatever else is necessary for prouction, but is otherwise not very involved.
 

V.I. Lenin

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socialist democracy will never work. it is human nature to want more.
It's human nature to want to masturbate in a McDonalds and kill the guy who takes too long at the ATM too. Thats why we make laws.

capitalism is a system that rewards those that deserve to be rewarded, which is why i am a capitalist. a strict caste system is required so as to keep those that leech off of others and those that actually deserve wealth separate.
A strict caste system. Thats good. How do those at the bottom advance to the top? If little Johnny took all the Legos and built an 8 foot castle, where is Tommy going to get the Legos to build his own castle if he's stuck building Johnny's all day for minimum wage? Point is, a strict caste system might seem fair to some but it's unfair to others.

armies of workers are indeed needed, but if you ask me, they shouldn't complain. capitalism doesn't bind anyone to anything. if lower class workers feel they are being treated unfairly, they should think up their own innovative idea, and start their own business. no ones stopping them.
Big Businesses that want to be #1 and have all the money are.

socialism creates laziness, and allows the weak to survive. i believe in evolution: survival of the fittest. eliminate those that cannot or will not get up and work to actually earn their pay.
Someone who owns a factory, sits back and smokes cigars all day is working harder then the factory worker who toils in it? Sure the Owner took risks, got the money and had an idea, but why can't we just skim some money off of what he's making and give it back to the community that helped raised him.

I'm not advocating Communism. I'm advocating a system to help those less fortunate. The rich do not need to be extremely rich, and the poor do not need to be a poor. A gap is fine, a gap is healthy for an economy, but a large canyon between rich and poor is not. I believe everyone deserves an equal chance at becoming successfull, not just those who are the greediest, sneakiest, and most manipulative.
 
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Ten Planks of the Communist manifesto and how they are right here in the good ole USA![/​
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1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.
The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance


We call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels


We call in government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.


We call it the Federal Reserve which is a credit/debt system nationally organized by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). This private bank has an exclusive monopoly in money creation which in reality has ended the need for revenue from taxes. So why do they tax? To FOOL YOU into thinking they need them.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the State


We call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) madated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations. There is also the postal monopoly, AMTRACK and CONRAIL
7. Extention of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.


We call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.
8. Equal liablity of all to labor. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.


We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.


We call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.
10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.


People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" . http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/com-man.html
 

Comrade Brian

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Could you post something instead of a copy-paste? Otherwise ther's nothing to debate.
 

Comrade Brian

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Fine then.

First of all, most of the US "counterparts" are gibberish, nothing close or half-way.

Second of all, the CM was later admitted by both Marx and Engels, in 1872, that the document had become rather outdated. Because this was written in 1848, one of Marx/Engels earlier documents. As their intellectuality developed, they started to contradict some parts.
The 1872 German Edition

However much that state of things may have altered during the last twenty-five years, the general principles laid down in the Manifesto are, on the whole, as correct today as ever. Here and there, some detail might be improved. The practical application of the principles will depend, as the Manifesto itself states, everywhere and at all times, on the historical conditions for the time being existing, and, for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II. That passage would, in many respects, be very differently worded today. In view of the gigantic strides of Modern Industry since 1848, and of the accompanying improved and extended organization of the working class, in view of the practical experience gained, first in the February Revolution, and then, still more, in the Paris Commune, where the proletariat for the first time held political power for two whole months, this programme has in some details been antiquated. One thing especially was proved by the Commune, viz., that “the working class cannot simply lay hold of ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes.” (See The Civil War in France: Address of the General Council of the International Working Men’ s Assocation, 1871, where this point is further developed.) Further, it is self-evident that the criticism of socialist literature is deficient in relation to the present time, because it comes down only to 1847; also that the remarks on the relation of the Communists to the various opposition parties (Section IV), although, in principle still correct, yet in practice are antiquated, because the political situation has been entirely changed, and the progress of history has swept from off the earth the greater portion of the political parties there enumerated.

But then, the Manifesto has become a historical document which we have no longer any right to alter. A subsequent edition may perhaps appear with an introduction bridging the gap from 1847 to the present day; but this reprint was too unexpected to leave us time for that.

Karl Marx & Frederick Engels
June 24, 1872, London
http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm

Note: I did cut out a little of it because it had nothing to do with the subject at hand, it was just a very brief history of the document.

Third of all, the "ten planks" were temporary, for that time period only.

Fourth of all, these are not what defines "communism".

Fifth of all, do you lack the intellectuality for a debate? Because you just use a copy-paste arguement, that is easily refuteable, then you claim that I was just making excuses for not engaging in such dumb debate as a copy-paste.
1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.
The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management
Last I knew private property was around and abound.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".
Ok, to a degree, but I think the word "heavy", was missed.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance


We call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.
That is not abolishing inheretances, because if I recall inheretances still exist and are fairly common.


Blah blah blah, it goes on and on...........
 
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Love Brian, you are by far more versed in the history and arguments of Communism; I admit that; I have no doubts about that--copy and pasting is natural and fun for me and I don't care about Communism or Capitalism which to me have more similiars than differences; so it's a mute argument for me to be converted to either, though I live in one of those so labeled alleged systems. Communism and Capitalism cannot cut it for humanity, Brian join me in Love, which is stronger than money and some outhouse theory on how we should govern ourselves. Love you.
 
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