- Apr 18, 2005
- Reaction score
- NE, Minnesota
- Political Leaning
FinnMacCool said:I never thought communism was entirely a bad thing but I don't think it can work the way Marx envisioned it. It's always gonna end up turning into a Stalinist 1984 bullshit thing. I don't even believe most forms of socialism can work anymore. I actually believe we should be as free market as humanely possible but at the same time making sure businesses don't get political power.
FinnMacCool said:In a perfect world, that would be true. However, money helps make all things possible. Thats why a completely free market wouldn't work. You would HOPE that politicians would do the right thing but they usually don't. If some busness man waved a couple thousand dollars in his face, he might be inclined to make a few different decisions.
UtahBill said:The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.
Engels came from a rich British family that owned textile mills and this was during the time that England used child labor in those mills. The conditions were horrible for them, they were treated more like prisoners than anything else. Engels hated it, and thought that we as human beings can do better.
So Engels was exposed to the harsh realities of unchecked, rampant, free market capitalism.
True communism has never existed on this planet, and never will. Too many of us humans are too selfish and greedy. We want it all, we want to be top dog, we want to be on the front page of Forbes Magazine. And you don't get there by sharing the wealth with anybody.
Is that the kind of capitalism you want?
Not all aspects of capitalism are good, and not all aspects of communism or socialism are bad.
Valis said:Nature of extremes. However, we do not have a Capitalis society, we have a corporatist one.
And we do not and have never had a true free market society either.
Strange then how corporations are capitalistic. And how corporations sprung out of capitalists.
But we do not have a truly free-market society, but to have one would be stupid.
Valis said:Oh, and why is that? Because people would get wealthy? Private non corporate enterprise would flourish? Or more importantly, less would support communism..
Define "human nature" to a more refined definition than "greedy".it is human nature to want more.
So what is a CEO or inherentant rewarded for? Neither really did anything for that.capitalism is a system that rewards those that deserve to be rewarded, which is why i am a capitalist.
Such as socialism?if lower class workers feel they are being treated unfairly, they should think up their own innovative idea
So everyone is a business-owner? Who sells their labour-power then?and start their own business
That is not evolution, evolution is the survival of those most reactive to change. It also sort of fits the evolution of societies too.believe in evolution: survival of the fittest.
So eliminate the Bourgeoisie then?eliminate those that cannot or will not get up and work to actually earn their pay.
No.Well, what is communism? Isnt it when basically everyone has to agree to what the government says
That is because your class is determined by your relation to social production. E.g. a Proletarian is someone who must rely on selling their labour-power, in order to live, they are bought in the form of wages, he lives on wages. A Bourgeois for exmple, is the owner of capital, he buys the labour-power and whatever else is necessary for prouction, but is otherwise not very involved.they split people up in classes
It's human nature to want to masturbate in a McDonalds and kill the guy who takes too long at the ATM too. Thats why we make laws.socialist democracy will never work. it is human nature to want more.
A strict caste system. Thats good. How do those at the bottom advance to the top? If little Johnny took all the Legos and built an 8 foot castle, where is Tommy going to get the Legos to build his own castle if he's stuck building Johnny's all day for minimum wage? Point is, a strict caste system might seem fair to some but it's unfair to others.capitalism is a system that rewards those that deserve to be rewarded, which is why i am a capitalist. a strict caste system is required so as to keep those that leech off of others and those that actually deserve wealth separate.
Big Businesses that want to be #1 and have all the money are.armies of workers are indeed needed, but if you ask me, they shouldn't complain. capitalism doesn't bind anyone to anything. if lower class workers feel they are being treated unfairly, they should think up their own innovative idea, and start their own business. no ones stopping them.
Someone who owns a factory, sits back and smokes cigars all day is working harder then the factory worker who toils in it? Sure the Owner took risks, got the money and had an idea, but why can't we just skim some money off of what he's making and give it back to the community that helped raised him.socialism creates laziness, and allows the weak to survive. i believe in evolution: survival of the fittest. eliminate those that cannot or will not get up and work to actually earn their pay.
Could you post something instead of a copy-paste? Otherwise ther's nothing to debate.
http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htmThe 1872 German Edition
However much that state of things may have altered during the last twenty-five years, the general principles laid down in the Manifesto are, on the whole, as correct today as ever. Here and there, some detail might be improved. The practical application of the principles will depend, as the Manifesto itself states, everywhere and at all times, on the historical conditions for the time being existing, and, for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II. That passage would, in many respects, be very differently worded today. In view of the gigantic strides of Modern Industry since 1848, and of the accompanying improved and extended organization of the working class, in view of the practical experience gained, first in the February Revolution, and then, still more, in the Paris Commune, where the proletariat for the first time held political power for two whole months, this programme has in some details been antiquated. One thing especially was proved by the Commune, viz., that “the working class cannot simply lay hold of ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes.” (See The Civil War in France: Address of the General Council of the International Working Men’ s Assocation, 1871, where this point is further developed.) Further, it is self-evident that the criticism of socialist literature is deficient in relation to the present time, because it comes down only to 1847; also that the remarks on the relation of the Communists to the various opposition parties (Section IV), although, in principle still correct, yet in practice are antiquated, because the political situation has been entirely changed, and the progress of history has swept from off the earth the greater portion of the political parties there enumerated.
But then, the Manifesto has become a historical document which we have no longer any right to alter. A subsequent edition may perhaps appear with an introduction bridging the gap from 1847 to the present day; but this reprint was too unexpected to leave us time for that.
Karl Marx & Frederick Engels
June 24, 1872, London
Last I knew private property was around and abound.1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.
The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management
Ok, to a degree, but I think the word "heavy", was missed.2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".
That is not abolishing inheretances, because if I recall inheretances still exist and are fairly common.3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance
We call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.