US Takes Tougher Tone on Israeli Settlements in New Report [W: 21]

[ido_]

from your post you infer that the Palestinians should simply accept being occupied and oppressed by another people, and demonstrate no opposition to that occupation and oppression

From my post you can understand that when Israel reached diplomatic agreements with a terrorist organization, the Palestinians didn't embrace diplomacy they still murdered Jews and kept enhancing their murderous capabilities. Its fair to say that I didn't expect that from them, no.

and yes, proportionality matters. the UN has conveyed its objection to such disproportionality to israel

And the UN is well known to be objective on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

[justabubba]

From my post you can understand that when Israel reached diplomatic agreements with a terrorist organization, the Palestinians didn't embrace diplomacy they still murdered Jews and kept enhancing their murderous capabilities. Its fair to say that I didn't expect that from them, no.

then your expectations are more naive than i would have thought
the Palestinian people are acting reasonably when they take actions to eliminate the oppressors and the occupiers of their lands
depart the lands of another people. if they then attack you, there is legitimate basis to object to their violent behavior. but when another people oppress and occupy their lands, resistance to such oppression and occupation is absolutely reasonable. as a people, we Americans celebrate a similar act every July 4

And the UN is well known to be objective on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

on this we agree. too bad the US defiles itself before the world body by shielding israel so that it can continue to ignore the UN's findings and decrees

 

[Cardinal]

then your expectations are more naive than i would have thought
the Palestinian people are acting reasonably when they take actions to eliminate the oppressors and the occupiers of their lands
depart the lands of another people. if they then attack you, there is legitimate basis to object to their violent behavior. but when another people oppress and occupy their lands, resistance to such oppression and occupation is absolutely reasonable. as a people, we Americans celebrate a similar act every July 4



on this we agree. too bad the US defiles itself before the world body by shielding israel so that it can continue to ignore the UN's findings and decrees

The repeated July 4 comparison is ridiculous. It would only be applicable if the reason for the British rule of the colonies was because we invaded Britain first, and then continued to bomb the UK and stab its citizens, and refused to promise not to continue doing so after they withdrew. Also, the British wanted to be in the 13 Colonies. Israel does not want to be in the West Bank. You need to visit Israel and actually talk to the Jewish citizens living there and ask them how they feel about occupying the West Bank. I'll tell you what they think about it: they ****ing hate it.

 

[CJ 2.0]

then your expectations are more naive than i would have thought
the Palestinian people are acting reasonably when they take actions to eliminate the oppressors and the occupiers of their lands
depart the lands of another people. if they then attack you, there is legitimate basis to object to their violent behavior. but when another people oppress and occupy their lands, resistance to such oppression and occupation is absolutely reasonable. as a people, we Americans celebrate a similar act every July 4



on this we agree. too bad the US defiles itself before the world body by shielding israel so that it can continue to ignore the UN's findings and decrees

Yeah, which is why we totally support prisoners murdering prison guards. Sure they were locked up for crimes, but since they are now "oppressed" they don't need to agree not to commit more crimes after they get out, they have the inherent right to resist their imprisonment by murdering prison guards, or, more equivalently, sneaking past the prison guards to murder kids outside the prison.

There is no justification for the Palestinians stabbing Israeli civilians or for suicide bombings. You of course disagree, but that's more of an indictment of values and judgment than a justifiable position.

And of course, the facts (and they are facts) make it clear that yours is just a shell game: (i) the occupation only happened because of the unwillingness of the Arabs to refuse to stop trying to fight against the Jewish state of Israel (ii) the Jews have offered many times to give the Arabs (who are now Palestinians) their independence provided they stop trying to murder Jews (iii) the Arabs (including the Palestinians) have rejected every offer and continue to try to murder Jews and (iv) the Palestinians use any concessions as an opportunity to gain a greater ability to kill Jews Jews (compare the number of Israeli civilian casualties before and after the concessions made as part of the Oslo accords, the focus of Gaza's government post occupation, etc.)

It was the fact that the Arabs intended to kill Jews in Israel (and often tried to) that led to the occupation. It is therefore fundamentally dishonest to state that the occupation now acts as a justification to the violence that was intended before the occupation even commenced. Par for the course, but fundamentally dishonest nonetheless.

 

[Apocalypse]

It was the fact that the Arabs intended to kill Jews in Israel (and often tried to) that led to the occupation. It is therefore fundamentally dishonest to state that the occupation now acts as a justification to the violence that was intended before the occupation even commenced. Par for the course, but fundamentally dishonest nonetheless.

Dishonest indeed, and even more so when this has already been clarified like a thousand times so far (and I'm really not exaggerating) on these boards alone.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Your method of simply ignoring parts of posts or entire posts that don't agree with you is consistently disappointing and disappointingly consistent. It has been pointed out to you that the occupation exists because the West Bank is a militarily superior strategic point, and Palestinians have given no indication that they simply won't attack the vulnerable valley below the West Bank. That is the reason for the occupation. Any criticism of the occupation that doesn't take this point into consideration is meaningless.

You also completely ignored ido's very real point, which is that if there were zero Palestinians attacking Jews, there would be zero retaliations. You seem to expect that Jews should be allowed to be murdered until some arbitrary principle of proportionality has been achieved. Which, by the way, is expected of precisely nobody else on the planet.

Now, you can either ignore my post or you can edit it so that all the relevant parts are in white so they can't be seen. Either would be par for the course for you.

The only meaninglful point is that occupation of any territory not belonging to you is illegal, whatever the feeble excuses put forward by apologists.

 

[Cardinal]

The only meaninglful point is that occupation of any territory not belonging to you is illegal, whatever the feeble excuses put forward by apologists.

Your statement is meaningless without considering the reason for that occupation. If you think Israel sat up one day and said, "Hey, I've got a fantastic idea! Let's invade and occupy a land filled with people that hate us! This cannot go wrong." then you have an extraordinary tunnel vision approach to this issue. If you want to contribute in any meaningful way to an extremely difficult and contentious topic, then you have to accept that security concerns on both sides are going to be a part of the discussion. Pretending that it isn't means nothing gets solved. Ever.

 

[Apocalypse]

The only meaninglful point is that occupation of any territory not belonging to you is illegal, whatever the feeble excuses put forward by apologists.

Of all the false statements you've made so far this one is the most obvious in its wrongness, occupation isn't automatically illegal, that's just stupid. Occupation can be justified and indeed when providing security and saving lives the occupation of the West Bank has been justified for its nearly 50 years of existance. When one argues for removing the occupation of the West Bank without providing an alternative that will grant security to the citizens of Israel one is engaging in a meaningless thing as pointed out correctly by Cardinal earlier, you should really let that one sink in your mind because it's vital to understand that concept when engaging any topic regarding this conflict.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The point is that Israel won't ever be able to gain peace if they continue the way they are going.

Israel is being denied peace no matter what they do.

They will not change the path that they are on so long as there are no paths that lead to peace.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Re: US Takes Tougher Tone on Israeli Settlements in New Report

That is not a true statement.

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process"
"And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."
"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde." "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."
--Ariel Sharon, 2004---

Sharon's plan to keep more land than Israel could keep in a negotiated outcome doesn't change that the Israelis unilaterally withdrew in the hope that the Palestinians would become peaceful after the withdrawal.

For a lifetime, I have watched the Jewish Folks enter courtrooms across this universe and demand the return of money, properties and artwork which were seized (stolen) from them.

Well, I think the Palestinian Folks deserve the same "Justice" and "Right Of Return" as the Jewish Folks have insisted upon.

Insistence on a right of return makes peace impossible. The only way to achieve peace is by having both sides agree to having their own separate states.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Re: US Takes Tougher Tone on Israeli Settlements in New Report

I don't think that there will be any war with a withdrawal,

Any attempt to force Israel to do something that they do not want to do will lead to outright war.

We could of course urge them to do something that they do not want to do. That won't lead to war. Israel would simply ignore our suggestions.

But if someone were to try to use force against Israel, that would be war.

and the only way to solve the violence problem is with bigger teeth in my view.

Israel has nuclear weapons.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

from your post you infer that the Palestinians should simply accept being occupied and oppressed by another people, and demonstrate no opposition to that occupation and oppression

The only thing the Palestinians need to do in order to end the occupation is agree to peace with Israel.

Therefore the occupation is no justification for any aggression on the Palestinians' part.

and yes, proportionality matters. the UN has conveyed its objection to such disproportionality to israel

Proportionality is a requirement that for any individual attack, the collateral damage expected from the attack cannot be excessive compared to the military gain expected from the attack.

There is no evidence that Israel has violated this rule.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The only meaninglful point is that occupation of any territory not belonging to you is illegal, whatever the feeble excuses put forward by apologists.

No more illegal than the violent attacks that are launched against Israel.

 

[ido_]

then your expectations are more naive than i would have thought
the Palestinian people are acting reasonably when they take actions to eliminate the oppressors and the occupiers of their lands
depart the lands of another people. if they then attack you, there is legitimate basis to object to their violent behavior. but when another people oppress and occupy their lands, resistance to such oppression and occupation is absolutely reasonable. as a people, we Americans celebrate a similar act every July 4



on this we agree. too bad the US defiles itself before the world body by shielding israel so that it can continue to ignore the UN's findings and decrees

If you find blowing up buses and malls "reasonable" than I agree, I am naive, naive to believe you are reasonable.

 

[calm]

If you think Israel sat up one day and said, "Hey, I've got a fantastic idea! Let's invade and occupy a land filled with people that hate us! This cannot go wrong." then you have an extraordinary tunnel vision approach to this issue.

Well, of course the Jewish Folks knew full well that stealing lands in the heart of the Middle East would incite hatred .... And of course it was purposely carried out ....

Lord Sydenham warned:

"The harm done by dumping down an alien population upon an Arab country may never be remedied. What we have done, by concessions not to the Jewish people but to a Zionist extreme section, is to start a running sore in the East, and no-one can tell how far that sore will extend."

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
--David Ben-Gurion, From Nahum Goldmann, The Jewish Paradox--

"If I were a young Palestinian, it is possible I would join a terrorist organization."
--Ehud Barak, in reply to a question by Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy, March 1998--

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
–-David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978--
--Israel Koenig, advisor to the Israeli Knesset, The Koenig Memorandum (Al Hamishmar newspaper, September 7, 1976)--

The Jewish Folks used threats and acts of violence leading up to the Balfour Decision ....

Eliyahu Bet-Zuri : Zionist Terrorist Plotted To Kill Winston Churchill
MI5 files: Zionist terrorist plotted to kill Winston Churchill - Telegraph

Jewish Terrorists Plotted To Kill Ernest Bevin, the British Foreign Secretary In 1946
The Times & The Sunday Times

What is so different between what the Palestinians are doing today that the Jewish Folks had not done to steal the land in the first instance?

Calm

 

[Tigerace117]

Israel is being denied peace no matter what they do.

They will not change the path that they are on so long as there are no paths that lead to peace.

They had a serious chance at peace back in the mid 1990s. The Palestineans were willing to deal with Yitzhak Rabin, and he with them. There was an air of, if not mutual respect, then at least mutual tolerance.

Then an Israeli ultranationalist shot Rabin and it's all gone to hell since.

 

[Thoreau72]

Israel is being denied peace no matter what they do.

They will not change the path that they are on so long as there are no paths that lead to peace.

Israel will not allow the international community to provide medical and other assistance to the Palestinians. At least once, maybe twice, Israel has boarded and otherwise turned around a flotilla of aid.

The Israeli government is a criminal organization, like the US and Saudi governments.

 

[ido_]

They had a serious chance at peace back in the mid 1990s. The Palestineans were willing to deal with Yitzhak Rabin, and he with them. There was an air of, if not mutual respect, then at least mutual tolerance.

Then an Israeli ultranationalist shot Rabin and it's all gone to hell since.

BS, the Palestinians continued the negotiations with Netanyahu and signed the Hebron deal and Wye agreement.
The hell went loose when Barak said enough to mid-term agreements, lets talk business on the permanent treaty, Palestinians who saw how Hezbollah made the IDF retreat in a day from Lebanon thought they could do the same in the west bank.

 

[Tigerace117]

BS, the Palestinians continued the negotiations with Netanyahu and signed the Hebron deal and Wye agreement.
The hell went loose when Barak said enough to mid-term agreements, lets talk business on the permanent treaty, Palestinians who saw how Hezbollah made the IDF retreat in a day from Lebanon thought they could do the same in the west bank.

Yeah, they continued the negotiations----but have you looked at the results?

The Israelis have been constructing settlements all over the place, the leadership(aka Netanyahu) tried to claim the Holocaust was the Palestineans' fault and things have escalated even more.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

They had a serious chance at peace back in the mid 1990s. The Palestineans were willing to deal with Yitzhak Rabin, and he with them. There was an air of, if not mutual respect, then at least mutual tolerance.

Then an Israeli ultranationalist shot Rabin and it's all gone to hell since.

Rabin's death was a shame, but there was also an opportunity to make peace with Ehud Barak in 2000-2001, an opportunity to let Israel unilaterally withdraw in 2005, an opportunity to make peace with Ehud Olmert from 2006 to 2009, and an opportunity to make peace with Benjamin Netanyahu from 2009 until now.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Israel will not allow the international community to provide medical and other assistance to the Palestinians. At least once, maybe twice, Israel has boarded and otherwise turned around a flotilla of aid.

Aid on the flotillas was allowed to go to the Palestinians. The flotillas were merely forced to subject themselves to inspections in order to ensure that they were not smuggling weapons.

 

[Tigerace117]

Rabin's death was a shame, but there was also an opportunity to make peace with Ehud Barak in 2000-2001, an opportunity to let Israel unilaterally withdraw in 2005, an opportunity to make peace with Ehud Olmert from 2006 to 2009, and an opportunity to make peace with Benjamin Netanyahu from 2009 until now.

I wouldn't say there was a chance with Netanyahu so much---isn't a big part of his base the ultra orthodox Israelis?

 

[Thoreau72]

Aid on the flotillas was allowed to go to the Palestinians. The flotillas were merely forced to subject themselves to inspections in order to ensure that they were not smuggling weapons.

Maybe you have a link to refresh my memory, but as I recall one of those aid flotillas was turned around.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The Israelis have been constructing settlements all over the place,

The Israelis think (with good reason at this point) that peace is impossible and they will get to keep the land no matter what.

If the Palestinian government ever showed up at the negotiating table, it could probably get a halt to settlement construction in exchange for doing something useful on their side (say putting an end to the Friday hate sermons and implementing programs to teach young Palestinians to choose peace).

 

[Tigerace117]

The Israelis think (with good reason at this point) that peace is impossible and they will get to keep the land no matter what.

If the Palestinian government ever showed up at the negotiating table, it could probably get a halt to settlement construction in exchange for doing something useful on their side (say putting an end to the Friday hate sermons and implementing programs to teach young Palestinians to choose peace).

It's kinda hard to get people to accept peace when their entire family was wiped out in an Israeli drone strike and the perps got away clean, having been long gone.

The Israelis will get to keep the land no matter what; so they have no real incentive to try to come to terms with the Palestineans. Their not going to go for a two state solution. Meanwhile the Palestineans(who are already pissed off and itching for trouble) will keep conducting attacks, the Israelis will keep retaliating, the cycle never ends.