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US should supply F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine now to end the stalemate with Russia and win the war

LetsGoBrandon said:
Yes, if they were idiots, they would have made the same choice. The reality is that what Chamberlain was set to agree with would have for all practical purposes been a surrender with a puppet government installed.
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Simply untrue.

When Chamberlain met with Hitler it was widely thought that he had achieved his mission and averted war. If Hitler hadn't been so irrational. Thats the same reason Stalin assumed that Germany would never attack Russia, it was so profoundly illogical. If he hadn't attacked Russia the outcome of the war may have been different.

Chamberlain made the same decisions that most intelligent people would have made. He assumed Hitler was logical, and that was the mistake.

Well, Hitler wound up dead in a dirty bunker very soon after.
 
Irredentist said:
Russians aren't bad guys. Russian lives don't matter any less than Ukrainian ones. We must not fall into the trap of dehumanizing our enemies.
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They are humans alright. Very bad humans.
 
Ukraine is not our responsibility. We should be sending jet to Taiwan instead.
 
What would be the point? Is the Russian AF even more than a token presence in this war? Is the Ukrainian hurting?

It takes something close to a year to train a pilot on a modern fighter aircraft. By then the entire landscape could be different.

The training plus the cost of the aircraft represent a huge investment. What exactly do they need them for that can't be done with whatever they currently have.
 
Bok Tuklo said:
They are humans alright. Very bad humans.
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And you are a very good human? Says who? From your divine keyboard you are better than a hundred million plus Russians?
 
LetsGoBrandon said:
Only a complete idiot at that time would have believed that Hitler was logical.
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The problem is we are looking at the problem with the help of hindsight.
Back then most would have thought the idea of going to war again so soon after WW1 and the carnage they witnessed was not something any country would contemplate.

If the decision of Chambelain was so obviously wrong parliament would have blocked him from doing it.
 
Where do you get that weird faith in Parliament?
 
LetsGoBrandon said:
Where do you get that weird faith in Parliament?
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It's how our country works or doesn't work but we normally muddle through.
His own party could have stopped him from signing anything obviously stupid.

UK politics works slightly different from US politics in that the party selects the PM so they can and do boot PM's from office if they're shit.
 
I ask again, where would these jets operate from be maintained and armed with weapons?
 
Peter said:
His own party could have stopped him from signing anything obviously stupid.
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What Chamberlain was prepared to agree to was not just stupid. It was insane.
Peter said:
UK politics works slightly different from US politics in that the party selects the PM so they can and do boot PM's from office if they're shit.
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I know how British Parliament works.
 
Juin said:
Why should I believe you over the Ukrainian Parliament, over Gen Valerii Zaluzhnyi, over the Supreme Court of Ukraine, over the City Councils of Kyiv, Lviv....
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Because the far right political groups couldn’t muster more than 2 percent of the vote, that’s why.

Do you think these election results are fake? Do you dispute them?

Juin said:
It is as convincing as say the US has no problems with racism because the Ku Klux Klan never won office
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This is a false dichotomy logical fallacy by way of analogy.

We can have a situation where there are actual neo nazis but not so many that their presence has an actual effect.

It just doesn’t matter that Ukrainians have street names and statues honoring Bandera if no more than 2 percent of Ukrainians actually support neo nazi policies.

It’s a non issue.

And this idea you and other pro Russians are putting forward that Ukraine has such a big neo nazi problem that it requires a full scale invasion is idiotic and based on a bunch of lies.
 


You are right. The political backing for war was just not there. And not just in the UK. French Foreign Minister Daladier, returning from Munich, thought he would be lynched for selling the Czechs down the river, was shocked at the mob that greeted him on his arrival
 
W_Heisenberg said:
Because the far right political groups couldn’t muster more than 2 percent of the vote, that’s why.
Do you think these election results are fake? Do you dispute them?
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The Ku Klux Klan never fared any better in US elections, did that make the post bellum South any less racist?



W_Heisenberg said:
This is a false dichotomy logical fallacy by way of analogy.
We can have a situation where there are actual neo nazis but not so many that their presence has an actual effect.
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Its for their victims to say.



W_Heisenberg said:
It just doesn’t matter that Ukrainians have street names and statues honoring Bandera if no more than 2 percent of Ukrainians actually support neo nazi policies.
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The street names, the statues honouring Bandera ARE neo nazi. No US City today will pass a measure erecting a statue to Grand Wizard Nathan Bedford Forrest. And I doubt any black will find convincing that a City Council that today passses a measure erecting a monument to Grand Wizard Forrest should see it as a none issue, provided that city does not support racist policies. I imagine a black will argue that the erection of a monument to that Grand Wizard is enough for him, he is not gonna wait around for what next that City has in store


W_Heisenberg said:
It’s a non issue.
And this idea you and other pro Russians are putting forward that Ukraine has such a big neo nazi problem that it requires a full scale invasion is idiotic and based on a bunch of lies.
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That is why the North assaulted the South. It required a full scale war to crush that monstrosity
 
In addition to which, I'll repeat my previous post # 33 for convenience's sake:

 
Juin said:
The Ku Klux Klan never fared any better in US elections, did that make the post bellum South any less racist?
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Does the presence of neo-nazis at a level no greater than 2% of the population of Ukraine justify an invasion by Russia?

Yes or no?

Juin said:
Its for their victims to say.
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You don't believe this. And neither does Putin. At the time of the Maidan Uprising no more than 18% of the population of Donbas wanted completed separation from Kyiv. If you are Putin thought the people of Donbas deserved a say in any of this, neither of you would have supported the civil war in 2014.



Do these statues this justify an invasion of Ukraine by Russia?

Juin said:
That is why the North assaulted the South. It required a full scale war to crush that monstrosity
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Do you honestly believe a few statues and street names are comparable to widescale slavery?

Here's the kicker. While you are spreading lies on Putin's behalf it's Russia that is engaged in the actual practice of ethnic cleansing:

Russia paves way for deportations from annexed Ukrainian regions

Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a decree that gives people living in parts of Ukraine under Moscow's control a path to Russian citizenship, but means those who decline or who do not legalise their status could be deported.
www.reuters.com

If you actually believed that street names and statues justified an invasion of Ukraine by Russia, then if Russia is ACTUALLY engaged in the practice of ethnic cleansing you would certainly support invading Russia, right?
 

I agree 100%. No truer words have been spoken about this conflict.
 
Irredentist said:
Russians aren't bad guys. Russian lives don't matter any less than Ukrainian ones. We must not fall into the trap of dehumanizing our enemies.
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The Russians fighting in Ukraine and implementing Putin's imperialist policies are actually bad guys.

They are involved in a war of conquest. Russia is actively seizing territory.

They are involved in a war of ethnic cleansing. Russia is actively implementing policies to import Russians and deport Ukrainians in the areas it has conquered.

They are murdering civilians intentionally, not through collateral damage.

They are murdering Ukrainian POWs, castrating them, beheading them.

They are kidnapping Ukrainian children.

They are raping Ukrainian women.

But any objective ****ing measure what they are doing is bad.

And the Ukrainians have every right to defend their country, and to kill the invading Russians.

What the Ukrainians are doing is noble, just, and good.

What the Russians are doing i bad.

There is redemption awaiting the Russians but they must choose to leave Ukraine. And after they leave, they can beg Ukrainians for forgiveness, and then the Ukrainians can choose to forgive or not.

The Russians should not be treated the way the Russians are treating the Ukrainians. We should not dehumanize the Russians like the Russians are dehumanizing the Ukrainians. But they will be held to account, and they will be defeated, and it is a good thing for the Ukrainians to do this. The Ukrainians have the right to defend themselves against the bad behavior of the Russians. And to help Ukrainians accomplish this goal is a good thing as well. Furthermore, the people defending Russia or not supporting Ukraine during their time of trouble are also behaving poorly. If you believe in right and wrong, truth and justice, you will defend the right of Ukrainians to defend their country from invasion. Instead these people play defense for the Russians in the information space, spreading their lies and propaganda, while innocent Ukrainians are being murdered.

We should not dehumanize the Russians, but the Russians soldiers still have to die until it sinks in through their thick skulls that they will not conquer Ukraine.

We must not fall into the trap of rewarding bad behavior.
 
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