US should consider peace with China on the condition in abandons Communism, allows the KMT and Taiwan to reunify but they are represented equally

[Andyh2299]

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Who's right?

 

[uptower]

Called it.

China Says It’s Ready to ‘Enhance’ Ties With Taiwan Opposition

China said it is willing to forge closer ties with Taiwan’s main opposition party, underscoring recent efforts by Beijing to adjust its tough approach to the democratically run island.

www.bloomberg.com

China should abandon atheistic Communism at return to tradition and religion

It mostly has abandoned communism. It's just a word now, In its place is nationalism. What China will never abandon - unless the state collapses - is its authoritarianism and dreams of reviving imperial yesteryear.

 

[Andyh2299]

It mostly has abandoned communism. It's just a word now, In its place is nationalism. What China will never abandon - unless the state collapses - is its authoritarianism and dreams of reviving imperial yesteryear.

In China I believe all land is still owned by the state

 

[uptower]

In China I believe all land is still owned by the state

I think that's technically correct, but they do allow "free" enterprise in business (though at least as corrupt as America's) and a sort of partial land ownership. This is not important. It's also true the Chinese state has not abandoned every law it implemented during its communist experiment.

However, communism is no longer the guiding tenet or philosophy, It is just something the CCP pays lip service to in part to maintain a stamp of validity based on the party's founding principles. It has most certainly moved on from the managed economy of 20th century communist states and merely maintained the authoritarianism that has always been there, before, during and since.

 

[vegas giants]

In China I believe all land is still owned by the state

In theory. People technically sign a 70 year lease and you buy and sell it between private parties

 

[Andyh2299]

I think that's technically correct, but they do allow "free" enterprise in business (though at least as corrupt as America's) and a sort of partial land ownership. This is not important. It's also true the Chinese state has not abandoned every law it implemented during its communist experiment.

However, communism is no longer the guiding tenet or philosophy, It is just something the CCP pays lip service to in part to maintain a stamp of validity based on the party's founding principles. It has most certainly moved on from the managed economy of 20th century communist states and merely maintained the authoritarianism that has always been there, before, during and since.

In theory. People technically sign a 70 year lease and you buy and sell it between private parties

Ok what happens if they make this guiding philosophy de jure instead of de-facto?

 

[uptower]

Ok what happens if they make this guiding philosophy de jure instead of de-facto?

They already used to, and set it aside some thirty years ago. Either way they're still ideologically opposed to the USA not least through their authoritarianism, but also in their pursuit of historical hegemony in the region. That won't change without the tag 'communist' hanging off it anymore.

Back to the OP: The fear for Taiwan is not 'falling to communism' - the West could care less what it chooses to do with its economy and its already about as 'socialist' as Canada or Britain; but there is the real fear of 25 million free people suddenly falling under authoritarian rule.

Moreover, Taiwan already had authoritarianism. The KMT ran it as any right wing dictatorship could be expected. They ditched that themselves thirty years ago and have had democracy ever since. It doesn't want to reunify with China even if it 'abandons communism' because it knows it will just become another subjugated province under a single party state with a strongman calling the shots, regardless of the purported economic philosophy.

China is a resurgent historical empire and Taiwan a fledgling democratic nation. It's going to be hard to reconcile those two under those circumstances and since America still errs on the side of democracy it's going to be at odds with China over its designs on Taiwan. China, while it still pursues the goal of restoring its old greatness, is also forever wary of western interference and seeks to avoid the repeat of colonial humiliation by reminding everyone who it thinks should be boss in the region.

So in short its important to get our labels correct. China is no longer the dedicated communist state it was in the seventies; Taiwan is not a capitalist utopia just waiting for a more agreeable economic model to hitch its wagon to.

 

[vegas giants]

Ok what happens if they make this guiding philosophy de jure instead of de-facto?

It would kill their economy


The Chinese are not stupid. They know in 30 years they are on track to be the number one world economic power

 

[Andyh2299]

They already used to, and set it aside some thirty years ago. Either way they're still ideologically opposed to the USA not least through their authoritarianism, but also in their pursuit of historical hegemony in the region. That won't change without the tag 'communist' hanging off it anymore.

My problem is if the US faulters China will have no imperialist power point fingers at. So China will give money to extremist groups in the US to destroy the center. If Trump wins both China and a real imperialist power will control the planet

I'm talking about it they got rid of their Communist tag. Called it the Chinese peoples Nationalist party. Half of Taiwan will want to join no?

The problem China IS still Communist. A constitution still matters

 

[uptower]

I'm talking about it they got rid of their Communist tag. Called it the Chinese peoples Nationalist party. Half of Taiwan will want to join no?

The problem China IS still Communist. A constitution still matters

And I don't think the tag is entirely what Taiwan is avoiding. They've learned to go their own way in the past seven decades. There are sympathizers, and of course like other Chinese diaspora they have no need to abandon their culture, but the country has increasingly developed its own national identity. The word "communism" is not the biggest impediment to that. The fact that the Taiwanese believe they can do it their own way without the traditional mainland leadership is what stifles the desire to reunify.

The mainland could abandon authoritarianism and adopt a sort of federalism as you suggest in the OP, but that wouldn't be the traditional way. It certainly wouldn't do that just to 'regain' Taiwan. They'd hardly consider it a gain. If Taiwan is still free, China won't tolerate that. China wants to be a modern 'empire', and Taiwan doesn't want to be under it. No chance of a peaceful reconciliation in that count. Not under Xi anyway, or the CCP. It would have to collapse first.

As for America's rivalry with China, just ditching the name 'communist' won't make any difference. Nixon famously tried to rebuild bridges with Mao himself so the CCP's communism was no impediment even when it was real. What will always set the two apart is not ideology as much as interests, and China is interested in having control of Taiwan and keeping America out of it, regardless of what they call themselves.

 

[Andyh2299]

And I don't think the tag is entirely what Taiwan is avoiding. They've learned to go their own way in the past seven decades. There are sympathizers, and of course like other Chinese diaspora they have no need to abandon their culture, but the country has increasingly developed its own national identity. The word "communism" is not the biggest impediment to that. The fact that the Taiwanese believe they can do it their own way without the traditional mainland leadership is what stifles the desire to reunify.

The mainland could abandon authoritarianism and adopt a sort of federalism as you suggest in the OP, but that wouldn't be the traditional way. It certainly wouldn't do that just to 'regain' Taiwan. They'd hardly consider it a gain. If Taiwan is still free, China won't tolerate that. China wants to be a modern 'empire', and Taiwan doesn't want to be under it. No chance of a peaceful reconciliation in that count. Not under Xi anyway, or the CCP. It would have to collapse first.

As for America's rivalry with China, just ditching the name 'communist' won't make any difference. Nixon famously tried to rebuild bridges with Mao himself so the CCP's communism was no impediment even when it was real. What will always set the two apart is not ideology as much as interests, and China is interested in having control of Taiwan and keeping America out of it, regardless of what they call themselves.

Taiwans DPP opposition is the KMT. It sees itself as rightfully the government of the mainland. They were the Nanjing government that ruled Nationalist China. CCP and the KMT can't get along BECAUSE of the Communist label.

The DPP are split between those who want to be called 'the Republic of China' or something else.

 

[uptower]

Taiwans DPP opposition is the KMT. It sees itself as rightfully the government of the mainland. They were the Nanjing government that ruled Nationalist China. CCP and the KMT can't get along BECAUSE of the Communist label.

The DPP are split between those who want to be called 'the Republic of China' or something else.

You're mistaking the start of their conflict - eighty-something years - to the state of it today.

Yes, there was a big ideological divide. Now there's a genuine physical and social divide between generations who grew up in Taiwan and the mainland. Taiwan's govt eventually abandoned its claim to rightful leadership of China (well, the KMT lost, duh). Now there are more elements that seek UN recognition of nationhood, but China still demands ownership of Taiwan. You're right in that the label doesn't help, but China is going to have to do more than just stop calling itself communist if the people of Taiwan are ever going to choose to be part of China. This is not the real impediment to unification.

 

[Andyh2299]

Taiwan's govt eventually abandoned its claim to rightful leadership of China (well, the KMT lost, duh). Now there are more elements that seek UN recognition of nationhood, but China still demands ownership of Taiwan. You're right in that the label doesn't help, but China is going to have to do more than just stop calling itself communist if the people of Taiwan are ever going to choose to be part of China. This is not the real impediment to unification.

Has the Taiwan abandoned reunification attempts? Remember the official name isn't 'Taiwan.' It isn't like Singapore. Calling yourself 'China' is bold enough. The KMT plan now is to talk to Capitalists on the mainland and hope for the Maoists retire and Sun and Mao go down both as part of Chinese history.

What is the difference between Sun and Mao? One wants authoritarianism temporarily the other permanently. One is capitalistic the other is not. Why doesn't Xi call for a coup on Taiwan? Because there is a ideological divide.

 

[uptower]

Has the Taiwan abandoned reunification attempts? Remember the official name isn't 'Taiwan.' It isn't like Singapore. Calling yourself 'China' is bold enough. The KMT plan now is to talk to Capitalists on the mainland and hope for the Maoists retire and Sun and Mao go down both as part of Chinese history.

What is the difference between Sun and Mao? One wants authoritarianism temporarily the other permanently. One is capitalistic the other is not. Why doesn't Xi call for a coup on Taiwan? Because there is a ideological divide.

Nope, lost me there. China is authoritarian, expansionist (to a point), proud and imperialistic (again to a point). It also calls itself communist, the least of its troubles. Should it ditch the tag, it'll still be China, stubborn and prideful, and won't be any easier to deal with and will still be a threat to Taiwan.

 

[Andyh2299]

Nope, lost me there. China is authoritarian, expansionist (to a point), proud and imperialistic (again to a point). It also calls itself communist, the least of its troubles. Should it ditch the tag, it'll still be China, stubborn and prideful, and won't be any easier to deal with and will still be a threat to Taiwan.

I have nothing to disagree on. China must abandon all traces of it's authoritarian past and it's Communist past. The US will fight a bloody war for Taiwan to deter it. Until the CCP falls the US will never sue for peace

 

[Indydave]

First of all, while the PRC is a dictatorship led by a party called The Communist Party, there's barely any Communism left. The Chinese economy is basically State Capitalism, as in Capitalism with heavy State involvement. But their 5 year-plans are not these binding documents you have to follow down to the tiniest detail anymore, and barely say anything at all other than: "profit would be nice" nowadays. And private enterprise is legal enough, you need permission from the government, but before it just wasn't something that existed. And there is a rich industrialist/ financial elite in China now, whose powerbase is built on economic power rather then rising through the bureaucracy, instead these entrepeneurs walk past the bureaucratic line directly into the offices of the party officials, where they give bribes.

So not really a Communist system, there is a saying that China ditched the proletariat but kept the dictatorship.

I doubt Taiwan would want to rejoin even a Post PRC China.

yep.....what would it benefit China to take over Taiwan and even more so to engage in a war with the US (and the rest of the free world).......such a plan would result in the economic collapse of China and the global economy......something that would only cause a global revolution of the masses like never in history......look at Russia today....they have become the world's pariah.....their people live in next to third world conditions......China, although still a long way from a completely free society, is slowly headed in that direction...it will probably require another century for both China and Russia to resolve their government ownership issues but China is far ahead of Russia......everywhere you look in Chinese cities there is prosperity......the problem that the communists brought upon themselves is they educated the masses in their nations and educated people are less likely to endure a dictatorial government.....the post Mao 1chinese leaders knew this and constructed a government that allowed for personal business success.....with Putin appointing himself czar Russia took a step backward......

 

[Andyh2299]

Looks like Xi can't take the island

China proffers 'peaceful reunification', Taiwan says respect our democracy

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang pledged "peaceful reunification" with Taiwan on Sunday as well as resolute steps to oppose Taiwan independence, with Taipei responding that Beijing should respect the Taiwanese people's commitment to democracy and freedom.

www.reuters.com

 

[ralfy]

I don't understand why peace should be considered, as both countries have each other as major trading partners.

Also, China has a mixed economy, i.e., it has private and public corporations, just like the U.S.

I'm not sure about the points concerning the KMT and TW, but the U.S. does not consider TW as a country.