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US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

Jango

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They were released under, at least to me, laughable conditions. They'll more than likely get around the 'wrong crowd', become radicalized again (if not already) and return to their old ways. There's no way they don't hate with every fiber of their being the U.S. and the West in general. I suspect, sometime in the future, they'll get droned.
 

gendolookin

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They were released under, at least to me, laughable conditions. They'll more than likely get around the 'wrong crowd', become radicalized again (if not already) and return to their old ways. There's no way they don't hate with every fiber of their being the U.S. and the West in general. I suspect, sometime in the future, they'll get droned.

They didn't mention whether they were proven to be taliban did they? There are many people in that place that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many people there were scooped up for reward money, and were never charged with any crimes.

You may be right that these guys might get radicalized, but I doubt it has anything to do with "western" civilization. It has more to do with being locked away for years without being charged with a crime (unless these men were actually charged)
 

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They were released under, at least to me, laughable conditions. They'll more than likely get around the 'wrong crowd', become radicalized again (if not already) and return to their old ways. There's no way they don't hate with every fiber of their being the U.S. and the West in general. I suspect, sometime in the future, they'll get droned.
Chances are they are "radicalized" even more with direct hate against the US because of their unlawful detention in GITMO for a decade. Most people who were taken to GITMO were innocent of any links or crimes to terror.
 
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Jango

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Chances are they are "radicalized" with hate against the US because of their unlawful detention in GITMO for a decade. Most people who were taken to GITMO were innocent of any links or crimes to terror.
Yeah, I'm aware of that - that actually innocent people were incarcerated. However, at this junction, I'm not aware if these released inmates are the innocent or guilty ones.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Chances are they are "radicalized" with hate against the US because of their unlawful detention in GITMO for a decade. Most people who were taken to GITMO were innocent of any links or crimes to terror.
If anybody locked me in a cage for that long without a trial, I would be very, very radically charged against them.
 

PeteEU

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Yeah, I'm aware of that - that actually innocent people were incarcerated. However, at this junction, I'm not aware if these released inmates are the innocent or guilty ones.
Considering there has been next to no charged, let alone any trials.. then they are all innocent according to basic law.

Plus just because they were Taliban, does not mean they were terrorists. I dislike the Taliban massively, but attacking an attacker in your own country is not terror.. it is fighting an aggressive occupation force. Shipping these people off to an island 10s of thousands of KM away from their homeland they are trying to defend... is immoral and illegal.
 

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If anybody locked me in a cage for that long without a trial, I would be very, very radically charged against them.
Exactly. And that is the problem with GITMO. 90+% of the men shipped there were totally innocent but once they were shipped there, then they definitely had an issue with the US and were easy prey for the actual terrorists.

Look at it this way.. if some cop arrests you on trumped up charges and you are kept in jail (and even convicted) for years and then finally released without even an appology or compensation... then chances are you will never ever trust the system or the cops again.
 

joG

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If anybody locked me in a cage for that long without a trial, I would be very, very radically charged against them.
I don't think a trail would console me much. If I were guilty, it would; trail or no trail.

If I thought of the US as an enemy, I would gripe in any case.

But could I really be angry, if I had been picked up in Pakistan with a gun? I knew that the forensics would not save me on that type of crime scene. I knew, the security forces in the area might pick me up. I knew that if they did I should pray hard, that they sent me to Gitmo and did not put me into one of the local jails.

But what do the States do? Is “Take no Prisoners” the way to go with terrorists?
 

Jango

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They didn't mention whether they were proven to be taliban did they? There are many people in that place that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many people there were scooped up for reward money, and were never charged with any crimes.

You may be right that these guys might get radicalized, but I doubt it has anything to do with "western" civilization. It has more to do with being locked away for years without being charged with a crime (unless these men were actually charged)
I own and have read 500 Days.

And I should have been clearer about what I said about them hating the West. Undoubtedly, the U.S. and Israel are there, but they probably despise the governments of the U.K., Australia, Canada, Germany and whomever else has contributed troops and resources for the allies in the War on Terrorism. It's doubtful, outside of the Jews and women, that they hate all the people in the allied countries, but it is certainly within the realm of logical possibilities - and largely for the fact, at least in my estimation, that no one really came to their aid. But why should we have? 9/11 was perpetrated by colleagues that killed thousands of U.S. citizens. Besides, they'd kill us, behead us, burn our lifeless body, drag it and hang it up for display before they'd consider "helping" one of us. The inhumanity would be the same for a Western woman, just more sexual and prolonged.
 

Jango

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Considering there has been next to no charged, let alone any trials.. then they are all innocent according to basic law.

Plus just because they were Taliban, does not mean they were terrorists. I dislike the Taliban massively, but attacking an attacker in your own country is not terror.. it is fighting an aggressive occupation force. Shipping these people off to an island 10s of thousands of KM away from their homeland they are trying to defend... is immoral and illegal.
That's a pretty far out claim to say that the Taliban weren't terrorists. Each and every one of them needs killin'. They're terrible people. Look at how they took over Afghanistan. How they treat women. The terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

I get that my country hasn't necessarily handled the WOT as awesomely as it potentially could have, I do. And yes, terrorism is subjective.
 

uncleray

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Chances are they are "radicalized" even more with direct hate against the US because of their unlawful detention in GITMO for a decade. Most people who were taken to GITMO were innocent of any links or crimes to terror.
At this point we're fighting terrorists radicalized by the presence of GITMO. There will never be a so-called "victory" until GITMO is closed --- either by releasing the detainees or waiting for the last one to die.
 

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At this point we're fighting terrorists radicalized by the presence of GITMO. There will never be a so-called "victory" until GITMO is closed --- either by releasing the detainees or waiting for the last one to die.
Definitive victory in the war against jihadi-terrorism is still several decades away, at best.
 

RabidAlpaca

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I don't think a trail would console me much. If I were guilty, it would; trail or no trail.

If I thought of the US as an enemy, I would gripe in any case.

But could I really be angry, if I had been picked up in Pakistan with a gun? I knew that the forensics would not save me on that type of crime scene. I knew, the security forces in the area might pick me up. I knew that if they did I should pray hard, that they sent me to Gitmo and did not put me into one of the local jails.

But what do the States do? Is “Take no Prisoners” the way to go with terrorists?
Not all of the detainees were insurgents nabbed in afghanistan, but were random people nabbed because our government believed they were guilty of something. Either way, EVERYBODY deserves a trial, it is a basic human right. Hitler deserved a trial, and would have gotten one had he not killed himself. It clearly would have been insanely easy to prove his guilt, just like it should be insanely easy to prove the guilt of an actual terrorist.

They avoid trials because they don't really have any evidence.
 

Artevelde

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Not all of the detainees were insurgents nabbed in afghanistan, but were random people nabbed because our government believed they were guilty of something. Either way, EVERYBODY deserves a trial, it is a basic human right. Hitler deserved a trial, and would have gotten one had he not killed himself. It clearly would have been insanely easy to prove his guilt, just like it should be insanely easy to prove the guilt of an actual terrorist.

They avoid trials because they don't really have any evidence.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong on two counts.

1) Nobody in Guantánamo was picked up "at random"; this is simply ridiculous.

2) People who are held as combattants (legal or illegal) in a war are not brought to trial. During and after WWII the Allies held millions of combattants for sometimes many years without trial.
 

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Chances are they are "radicalized" even more with direct hate against the US because of their unlawful detention in GITMO for a decade. Most people who were taken to GITMO were innocent of any links or crimes to terror.
It's odd to me that people think you can imprison people, who may be innocent of any crime, and not radicalize them. If they become embittered by the experience, it must be because they were radicals to begin with. It's not a logical thought process.
 

Simon W. Moon

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I try to pull stories from neutral sources but this is still true.
US releases prisoners from Guantanamo - Israel News, Ynetnews
How do you know it's true?
Last I looked, this was the only source for this. There're other stories, but they all reference this story.
If this was done, it was likely illegal. If Obama had done something illegal, I expect that there would be some people in Congress who would like for me to know about it. Yet, there has been no noise from Congress.

So, how do you know it is true?
 

RabidAlpaca

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I'm sorry, but you are wrong on two counts.

1) Nobody in Guantánamo was picked up "at random"; this is simply ridiculous.

2) People who are held as combattants (legal or illegal) in a war are not brought to trial. During and after WWII the Allies held millions of combattants for sometimes many years without trial.
1) I said THEY were random, not that they were randomly chosen, as in they were unimportant or unassociated, but that's semantics. If there's damning evidence, then produce it. And how do you know what they were picked up for when that's top secret?

2) This isn't a war. We've never declared war on afghanistan or really even on terrorism. This is just military action. They allegedly will be all released at the end of the "hostilities", which considering they're fighting terrorism, that time will never come. Comparing this to an actual war is ridiculous. We never treated the Germans like this.

But by all means, tell me more about how random government officials should have the power to lock people in cages indefinitely without having to produce any shred of evidence whatsoever.
 

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1) I said THEY were random, not that they were randomly chosen, as in they were unimportant or unassociated, but that's semantics. If there's damning evidence, then produce it. And how do you know what they were picked up for when that's top secret?

2) This isn't a war. We've never declared war on afghanistan or really even on terrorism. This is just military action. They allegedly will be all released at the end of the "hostilities", which considering they're fighting terrorism, that time will never come.

But by all means, tell me more about how random government officials should have the power to lock people in cages indefinitely without having to produce any shred of evidence whatsoever.
So I guess you would prefer the US to simply shoot all captured enemy combattants in Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, etc.?
 

RabidAlpaca

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So I guess you would prefer the US to simply shoot all captured enemy combattants in Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, etc.?
No, I would prefer that they be detained and put on trial within a somewhat reasonable amount of time. Whisking off random, yes, random, people to a secret prison in the carribean with absolutely zero regard as to whether or not they're guilty is just insane.

So you're not going to explain why you don't care if they're guilty or not?
 

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How do you know it's true?
Last I looked, this was the only source for this. There're other stories, but they all reference this story.
If this was done, it was likely illegal. If Obama had done something illegal, I expect that there would be some people in Congress who would like for me to know about it. Yet, there has been no noise from Congress.

So, how do you know it is true?
How do you know it's not true?

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...etainee-policy-obama-administration-transfers
 
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Simon W. Moon

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How do you know it's not true?
I don't know that it's not true. That's why I did not claim that it wasn't true.
Someone claimed that it was true. So I asked how they knew.

The Ynet story is not sourced.
There's good reason to believe that doing such a thing would incite Congress and could be a crime if done w/o Congress' approval.
It would be a HUGE story.
But, so far, there's just the one story (that I know about).

Imho, even though that doesn't mean that the story is false, it is reason to be skeptical.
Other people have a different opinion about whether that is enough to warrant skepticism and further inquiry. That's fine.

You know that this article refers to an incident much different than what is described in the Ynet article, don't you?
 

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Not all of the detainees were insurgents nabbed in afghanistan, but were random people nabbed because our government believed they were guilty of something. Either way, EVERYBODY deserves a trial, it is a basic human right. Hitler deserved a trial, and would have gotten one had he not killed himself. It clearly would have been insanely easy to prove his guilt, just like it should be insanely easy to prove the guilt of an actual terrorist.

They avoid trials because they don't really have any evidence.
Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sorrily we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costes of maintaining safty and with the mess of cleaning up.

Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sadly we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costs of maintaining safety and with the mess of cleaning up.

Take Germany. Among the countries of the world it profits most from open trade routs and dictators who abide by a minimum of restraint in robbing foreigners, it ist ahead of the pack with practically no resources and a huge trade surplus. It lives off of the safety of trade. It sends only few and ineffective forces, spends a trivial amount on military so that with a population of 80.000.000 it can put less than 9.000 Troups in the field. Like many countries around the world there is no help from that quarter. In the run up to the Iraq war Germany even made things worse by standing behind Saddam with Chirac and Putin thereby giving the dictator the feeling he could hold out against die UN inspection, which was a recipe for war. In Afghanistan they promised to educate Afghanis as police. They could not find German police for the job and for two years did nothing on the matter. The US took the job eventually pushing the Germans to help. A German born man of turkish decent was captured and put in Gitmo. Although the German government continuously lambasted the US on Gitmo the German government refused over a number of years to allow the man to come back to his family in Hamburg. etc.

This is not just Germany and I use this example only because I live here and follow politics here very closely. But when all is said and done it has been the US with a very few close allies, that have been saddled with producing, what is economically a Public Good. Given the nature of Public Goods everybody can use them, once somebody produces them. This has been what many around the world have done.

In this situation the costs are high for the US. There are the military costs for equipment and battle. But there are other costs that are often higher. When you take a couple of Thousands of prisoners, like sometimes happens, in a world without robust general safety, you have all sorts of problems. Your own courts demand high levels of proof, which cannot be attained in battle or from countries that made the arrest. Countries do not want their nationals back or the persons face brutality at home, that we just can't push them into. We can't bring them to the US, because the population would go ballistic. I mean the Saudis put a largish number of Gitmo people into rehab and found that most of them reverted to active terrorism.

So here we are. Take no prisoners? That is presently the German stance after trying trails, which was a fiasco with the pirates claiming asylum in Hamburg and turning prisoners over to third world country prisons, where they found the prisoners average time till contracting HIV and tuberculosis war 6 weeks. Their ship off the horn of Africa no longer seems to be allowed to capture pirates.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sorrily we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costes of maintaining safty and with the mess of cleaning up.

Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sadly we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costs of maintaining safety and with the mess of cleaning up.

Take Germany. Among the countries of the world it profits most from open trade routs and dictators who abide by a minimum of restraint in robbing foreigners, it ist ahead of the pack with practically no resources and a huge trade surplus. It lives off of the safety of trade. It sends only few and ineffective forces, spends a trivial amount on military so that with a population of 80.000.000 it can put less than 9.000 Troups in the field. Like many countries around the world there is no help from that quarter. In the run up to the Iraq war Germany even made things worse by standing behind Saddam with Chirac and Putin thereby giving the dictator the feeling he could hold out against die UN inspection, which was a recipe for war. In Afghanistan they promised to educate Afghanis as police. They could not find German police for the job and for two years did nothing on the matter. The US took the job eventually pushing the Germans to help. A German born man of turkish decent was captured and put in Gitmo. Although the German government continuously lambasted the US on Gitmo the German government refused over a number of years to allow the man to come back to his family in Hamburg. etc.

This is not just Germany and I use this example only because I live here and follow politics here very closely. But when all is said and done it has been the US with a very few close allies, that have been saddled with producing, what is economically a Public Good. Given the nature of Public Goods everybody can use them, once somebody produces them. This has been what many around the world have done.

In this situation the costs are high for the US. There are the military costs for equipment and battle. But there are other costs that are often higher. When you take a couple of Thousands of prisoners, like sometimes happens, in a world without robust general safety, you have all sorts of problems. Your own courts demand high levels of proof, which cannot be attained in battle or from countries that made the arrest. Countries do not want their nationals back or the persons face brutality at home, that we just can't push them into. We can't bring them to the US, because the population would go ballistic. I mean the Saudis put a largish number of Gitmo people into rehab and found that most of them reverted to active terrorism.

So here we are. Take no prisoners? That is presently the German stance after trying trails, which was a fiasco with the pirates claiming asylum in Hamburg and turning prisoners over to third world country prisons, where they found the prisoners average time till contracting HIV and tuberculosis war 6 weeks. Their ship off the horn of Africa no longer seems to be allowed to capture pirates.
I also live in Germany. Welcome to DP.

Most of what you've written is based on a fundamentally flawed assumption. You assume that America rolling from country to country blowing up is somehow "securing trade" and making peace. I think Iraq and Afghanistan are the best examples of this. How could you possibly claim that either of those wars have done ANYTHING to stabilize the region or international trade? Iraq, for one, is worse off than they started. Their infrastructure is crippled, near a million of them are dead, and over 4,000 US soldiers are dead.

Without a trial, you're giving the power to permanently imprison somebody to individuals' judgement. The reason a trial would be so "burdensome" is because the evidence didn't really exist in the first place. A lot of the things they use to nab these guys are circumstantial evidence and guilt by association. If there was real, tangible evidence of wrong-doing, it would not be hard to produce in court.

Germany is thriving because they have a strong production oriented economy, and don't waste their resources on pointless wars. They grow from international trade. For instance, the company I work for is in the process of designing, manufacturing and delivering products to Iran. Their trade abilities have nothing to do with the American war machine.

When you support the world view you do, you inevitably cheapen the very American ideals we were founded on. We've become the same monsters we're trying to fight, and we're not a single bit safer for doing so. A trial is a fundamental human right, and we are simply better than this.
 

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The sole remaining British inmate is complaining of being sexually aassaulted. By the guards. What is it with American prisons?
 
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