US probes new Iraq massacre claim (1 Viewer)

[GarzaUK]

The BBC has obtained video footage for an "apparant" intentially killing of Iraqi civilians.

The US military has told the BBC it is investigating an incident in which 11 Iraqi civilians may have been deliberately killed by US troops.
Video footage obtained by the BBC appears to challenge the US account of events in the town of Ishaqi in March.

The US said at the time that four people died during a raid, but Iraqi police said 11 were shot by US troops.

The video evidence comes in the wake of the alleged massacre by US marines of up to 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha.

The troops are also suspected of covering up the deaths in November 2005.

The video tape obtained by the BBC shows a number of dead adults and children at the site with what our world affairs editor John Simpson says were clearly gunshot wounds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039714.stm

My 2 cents. This sorta thing happened in Vietnam, like in My Lai where American troops slaughtered 500 Vietnamese civilians. It is hard on troops, especially when your brother in arms dies. Anyone would be angry is someone they loved was taken away from them. But it is not professional, everyone who signs up knows the risks they are taking and they accepted them when they signed on the dotted line.
Are those "soldiers", if guilty any different from what we have been fighting. A soldier without professionalism is nothing more than a mere miltia man or viglante.

 

[PeteEU]

Dont worry, it will be dismissed off hand by most pro Bush people because its from the BBC.

Funny how no one has mentioned that the prime minister of Iraq is accusing the Americans of random killings and total lack of respect of the local population.

 

[cherokee]

The BBC has obtained video footage for an "apparant" intentially killing of Iraqi civilians.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039714.stm

My 2 cents. This sorta thing happened in Vietnam, like in My Lai where American troops slaughtered 500 Vietnamese civilians. It is hard on troops, especially when your brother in arms dies. Anyone would be angry is someone they loved was taken away from them. But it is not professional, everyone who signs up knows the risks they are taking and they accepted them when they signed on the dotted line.
Are those "soldiers", if guilty any different from what we have been fighting. A soldier without professionalism is nothing more than a mere miltia man or viglante.

And its just so easy for people like you guys to blame them before any investigation is done..:roll:

and just for the record PeteEU I cant stand Bush..

 

[Davo The Mavo]

. . . it is not professional, everyone who signs up knows the risks they are taking and they accepted them when they signed on the dotted line.

This is not an acceptable argument when those supporting the war in Iraq, use it to defend American Troop's deaths because they are coming in smaller numbers than in other wars. This is not an acceptable argument when it is used by those who see nothing wrong with 40% of the Troops in Iraq being National Guard units who have multiple rotations. But, in this case, it is especially not applicable, because, while human nature has nothing to do with the number of dead and the decision on who is going to fight in Iraq----it has everything to do with Troops going over the top.

Now, no one will deny that having a Buddy die, or getting sent to Iraq for the third or fourth time affects the psyche of many, it has too, it may even contribute to why something like Haditha occurs, but it does not make the argument for going to war in Iraq any stronger, nor does bringing up the "dotted line" when debating the mindset one must be in living through the series of events that led to the alleged misconduct. It is way too easy to criticize and judge when no one has ever tried to kill you.

Unless you have walked in these particular Marine's boots, you have no idea what it has been like for them. Again, I do not justify murder, in any case, but I can understand how things might get out of control. If you try to analyze this without considering how our Troops have to turn off the everyday, Joe American, moral structure we live under voluntarily here at home the moment they cross the border into Iraq. Besides living with Permanent Puckered Anus Syndrome(PPAS), everything taught to them as kids about how they are suppose to live as Americans MUST be tossed if our guys and gals are gonna survive---both physically AND Mentally. There is a thin line between what is considered acceptable and "the norm" in a war zone vs. what is deemed as an atrocity.

Let me put it this way, it's easy to judge when one cannot imagine the consequences which might produce what has been alleged. Many from the Anti-War side of the house have no problem imagining what it is like TO WALK IN THE INNOCENT IRAQI CIVILIAN's SHOES when debating those who will stand by George even as his ship sinks below the waves. A very good portion of those against this war are proudly liberal, and do not believe "Liberal" is a dirty word. They are passionate about helping those who cannot help themselves, yet look at our troops without considering that 90% of them are "Troops" trying to help themselves, by using the benefits given to those who serve in order to get ahead in life. They are human too. Perhaps you have a friend here in the forum (Cappy is mine)-----now, put yourself in these Marine's boots----three tours, death, gore, stress (PPAS), and then all of a sudden, that friend gets Blown UP! Perhaps his or her arm lands in your lap while their brain matter is spread around the inside of a Hummer (not you Cappy), with an extremely large amount of it being deposited on your face and in your mouth. Go ahead, imagine----it's ugly, but that's war.

I would love to say "I would never do anything like that." I can't. Anyone, under the right circumstances can snap----anyone. So, before we execute these guys, I personally believe we should all slow down. They will not only be living with Haditha for the rest of their lives, they will be living with all the crap that preceded it, and which probably had a whole lot to do with why it happened in the first place.

It's not like Iraq was going all smooth before this----it's not like the Iraqis were all in love with us before this either. Seriously, if the Military is a true microcosm of our society, then judging by U.S. crime statistics, we should be surprised there isn't even more of these incidents happening.

Just a thought.

 

[Captain America]

Allz I can say is what I said earlier in this thread. It would not pay to give me an M-16 and turn me loose in Iraq.

If I was on patrol with Diavo OR Gunny, and either were blown up in front of my face, I would shoot everything in site and ask questions later. I can totally understand going nuts in a situation like that.

I ain't saying it's right. I'm just saying I can understand going over the edge.

Maybe that's why the Navy never let me get any closer than few miles from my enemies. My gun shot 3000 rounds per minute of depleted uranium. Sounded like a chainsaw. Ahhh yes.....

I could do plenty damage.:mrgreen:

Ooo-Rah.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Dont worry, it will be dismissed off hand by most pro Bush people because its from the BBC.

Funny how no one has mentioned that the prime minister of Iraq is accusing the Americans of random killings and total lack of respect of the local population.

I didn't read that... Can you please post a link to this story. I would be interested to read it.

 

[Iriemon]

These posts reflect the inherent tension of fighting a guerrilla war in a country that is essentially emeshed in a civil war. The enemy doesn't wear uniform with little symbols on them identifying them as the bad guys. The enemy looks just like the people we are trying to help. Unless you are being fired upon, you cannot tell if the person is friend or foe. After a couple of your buddies die, pretty soon they all feel like foes. In a situation where there is a perceived threat, delay in action of a second can mean the different between life and death. Is that car racing carrying a bomb or a pregnant woman? Mistakes will be made.

But these subtle explanations don't really matter in the bigger picture. The guy who is the husband of the dead woman only knows that those bastard Americans killed here. Our enemies say that Americans are killing innocent muslems. The blood is on our hands. And more will hate us.

Our enemy is anti-American hatred, inflamed to the point where people join or support anti-American radical Islamic or terrorists. We can win battle after battle in Iraq, and occupy it indefinitely.

At the end of the day, if more hate the US, we will have lost the war.

 

[MSgt]

These posts reflect the inherent tension of fighting a guerrilla war in a country that is essentially emeshed in a civil war. The enemy doesn't wear uniform with little symbols on them identifying them as the bad guys. The enemy looks just like the people we are trying to help. Unless you are being fired upon, you cannot tell if the person is friend or foe. After a couple of your buddies die, pretty soon they all feel like foes. In a situation where there is a perceived threat, delay in action of a second can mean the different between life and death. Is that car racing carrying a bomb or a pregnant woman? Mistakes will be made.

But these subtle explanations don't really matter in the bigger picture. The guy who is the husband of the dead woman only knows that those bastard Americans killed here. Our enemies say that Americans are killing innocent muslems. The blood is on our hands. And more will hate us.

Our enemy is anti-American hatred, inflamed to the point where people join or support anti-American radical Islamic or terrorists. We can win battle after battle in Iraq, and occupy it indefinitely.

At the end of the day, if more hate the US, we will have lost the war.

Aside from your sentiments about civil war in Iraq (very far from it), this was very well stated and very true. The ultimate ally that will see us to a quicker favorable end in this generational "war on terror" is the hearts and minds of Muslims. If we lose that, we will set ourselves up for a civilizational war in the end. For an immediate argument locally in Iraq, they will only succeed to a favorable end, if they see the west, America especially, as the good guys.

Things like Haditha and Abu-Ghraib are damaging. The fact that there hasn't been other incidents' like these in our current situation shows us that proffessionalism has been the overwhelming conduct. However, what is ultimately important, is how the Muslim world perceive us. This is why it is so important that they see Afghanistan and Iraq as a success and that further incidents' be non-existent, despite the few Marines or soldiers involved. To the Muslim world, Iraq specifically, a few Marines didn't do this - America did.

There will be more allegations coming forward in the wake of the Haditha incident about other places. We have to keep our minds open to the fact that this could easily become a tactic for our enemies to damage our efforts. All it takes is a massacre and an Iraqi "official" telling his story to a reporter, in which will be plastered all over the world. The Military will deny it as people everywhere choose to believe the military or believe the Iraqi "official." Dead bodies does not make an American war crime.