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[W:913]Us pro-lifers have got to stop using the religious argument for being against this...

Grand Mal said:
It's not about abortion, It's about safe abortion. The practice of abortion didn't start when it became legal and it wouldn't end if made illegal. Abortion was legalized because women were suffering and dying from dangerous underground procedures.
Want to help reduce the number of abortions? Here's a start- provide free childcare to single mothers. Make it so that having a child isn't a sentence to 18 years of poverty. That would be a good start. A positive step.
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You would have a point if becoming pregnant wasn't entirely self-inflicted.
 
Dayton3 said:
So you reject the idea that some people (men AND women) believe that an unborn child at any stage of development is in fact a child and deserves protection?
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If your idea of "protection" means the normal development of the fetus is assured because the mother is not exposed to toxins in the water she drinks, the air she breathes and the food she eats, nor is the fetus threatened with death because pre and post natal care are unavailable to the mother, then yes a fetus deserves these protections. A fetus also deserves to be welcomed into a stable family and given a good start in life in a loving, safe home. So let's start, now, providing it. Let's clean up the toxic water women are drinking in Detroit, the toxic soot particulates women are breathing near coal fired generating plants along the Ohio River. Let's re-instate food inspection by authorities not company inspectors and eliminate the bacteria in meats and vegetables that are toxic to fetuses and mothers. Let's start building and staffing those pre and post natal clinics available to every pregnant woman rich or poor to assure healthy babies and mothers.

That will raise your taxes? Yes but, you said you wanted the fetus protected.

Ooooooooooooo, that wasn't the kind of protection you meant.
 
Dayton3 said:
Why do you (among many) continue to claim that people opposing abortion want to "punish women for having sex"?

If we wanted to punish women (and men) for having sex why not simply reimplement laws against fornication that were on the books up until just a few decades ago?
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Reimplementing fornication laws would cost money. It's a lot easier just to have religious shaming, righteous indignation, preaching against women tempting men into sin, abstinence only sex education, and re-virginity ceremonies for girls from good Christian families that just made a little mistake.
 
CLAX1911 said:
You would have a point if becoming pregnant wasn't entirely self-inflicted.
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It's immaterial how the pregnancy happened. We're not talking about punishment. If the point is to end abortion, making it illegal isn't the way to do it. There's so many examples of this that it shouldn't need saying.
My suggestion is one good step toward reducing abortions. There's other positive steps.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Let me ask you this question, if a man doesn't want to be a father which includes paying child support what should he do?
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He should never leave his house. Lol
 
Grand Mal said:
It's immaterial how the pregnancy happened.
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well they only ever happen one way so it being a material or not is really not relevant in the least.

We're not talking about punishment.
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yes we are abortion is the death penalty for inconvenience.
If the point is to end abortion, making it illegal isn't the way to do it.
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that could be said about any law. If the point is to end theft making it illegal isn't the way to do it people still steal even though it's illegal. they still commit murder they still molest children all these crimes still happen even though there's laws against them.

Laws don't exist to create Utopia and I never said that they did so this argument falls flat.
There's so many examples of this that it shouldn't need saying.
My suggestion is one good step toward reducing abortions. There's other positive steps.
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Bailing out people for their stupid decisions will not cause them to make less stupid decisions.

Let's forget about women and abortion for a minute.

What choice does a man have he doesn't want to become a father?
 
CLAX1911 said:
well they only ever happen one way so it being a material or not is really not relevant in the least.

yes we are abortion is the death penalty for inconvenience. that could be said about any law. If the point is to in theft making it illegal isn't the way to do it people still steal even though it's illegal. they still commit murder they still no less children all these crimes still happen even though there's laws against them.

Laws don't exist to create Utopia and I never said that they did so this argument falls flat.

Bailing out people for their stupid decisions will not cause them to make less stupid decisions.

Let's forget about women and abortion for a minute.

What choice does a man have he doesn't want to become a father?
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What choice does a man have if he does not want to be in a car accident?
 
CLAX1911 said:
well they only ever happen one way so it being a material or not is really not relevant in the least.

yes we are abortion is the death penalty for inconvenience. that could be said about any law. If the point is to end theft making it illegal isn't the way to do it people still steal even though it's illegal. they still commit murder they still molest children all these crimes still happen even though there's laws against them.

Laws don't exist to create Utopia and I never said that they did so this argument falls flat.

Bailing out people for their stupid decisions will not cause them to make less stupid decisions.

Let's forget about women and abortion for a minute.

What choice does a man have he doesn't want to become a father?
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If single motherhood were not a sentence to years of poverty, do you think there might be fewer abortions?
 
Grand Mal said:
If single motherhood were not a sentence to years of poverty, do you think there might be fewer abortions?
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I noticed you didn't answer my question and that's telling. So I'm not going to answer yours I'm just going to ask mine again.

If a man does not want to be a father and does not want to pay child support what should he do?

This question is to point out a double standard that you hold. That is why you won't answer it. The man needs to keep his pants zipped up. The sad thing about it is you think a man is intelligent enough to do that or so must pay for 18 years or be put in jail, (also known as public housing for men who cannot afford to take care of their children).

I'm proposing equality. A man has to take the forethought not to get himself in that predicament in the first place or he pays the consequences

You are advocating for punishment of male sexuality.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I noticed you didn't answer my question and that's telling. So I'm not going to answer yours I'm just going to ask mine again.

If a man does not want to be a father and does not want to pay child support what should he do?

This question is to point out a double standard that you hold. That is why you won't answer it. The man needs to keep his pants zipped up. The sad thing about it is you think a man is intelligent enough to do that or so must pay for 18 years or be put in jail, (also known as public housing for men who cannot afford to take care of their children).

I'm proposing equality. A man has to take the forethought not to get himself in that predicament in the first place or he pays the consequences

You are advocating for punishment of male sexuality.
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Now you're putting words in my mouth.
I didn't answer your question because the answer is so obvious I didn't realize it needed to be said. Practice birth control. Simple. It's taught to kids in school, for a reason.
Do you think free childcare for single mothers would reduce the number of abortions?
 
Grand Mal said:
Now you're putting words in my mouth.
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I apologize that that's what it takes to get you to answer it.
I didn't answer your question because the answer is so obvious I didn't realize it needed to be said. Practice birth control. Simple.
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if it's so simple why do you think women can't do it? Do you think women are too stupid?

It's taught to kids in school, for a reason.
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again why do you think women or girls are incapable of understanding?
Do you think free childcare for single mothers would reduce the number of abortions?
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no I don't.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I apologize that that's what it takes to get you to answer it.
if it's so simple why do you think women can't do it? Do you think women are too stupid?

again why do you think women or girls are incapable of understanding?
no I don't.
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Sigh

Nothing I've said here implies that I think women and girls are incapable of understanding. I've said that how a pregnancy happens is immaterial. Obviously either or both parties could prevent it with birth control. And equally obviously neither did. It's pointless to quibble over blame. The fact is that making abortion illegal won't stop abortions, it'll just drive it underground. Anyone who sincerely wants to stop abortion has to first admit that is a fact and then look for other ways, and it'll no doubt take a lot of time and a lot of different measures. But making abortion illegal won't do it, won't stop it, so it must be all about punishment.

edit- and at the next hint of condescension from you I'm done here.
 
Grand Mal said:
Sigh

Nothing I've said here implies that I think women and girls are incapable of understanding.
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so if birth control isn't enough for women why is it enough for men? What you're doing is holding a double standard and the only reason I can come up with that is because you think women need a handicap.
I've said that how a pregnancy happens is immaterial.
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you insist on this with nothing really to back it up because it allows you to keep your double standard.

It is absolutely material. because if they didn't get pregnant in the first place they wouldn't eat an abortion and it's easy enough to avoid it.

or at least that expectation is good enough for men but I know you're not really saying women are somehow incapable or inferior to men You're Just implying it.
Obviously either or both parties could prevent it with birth control. And equally obviously neither did. It's pointless to quibble over blame.
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but telling a man you're at the mercy of a woman's choice, and telling a woman whatever she decides there will be no consequences for her is establishing a double standard.

The fact is that making abortion illegal won't stop abortions, it'll just drive it underground.
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so we should legalize molesting children because laws against it won't stop at they'll just push it underground.

The argument against making a law is that some people will just break it is not an argument against the law it's an argument for enforcement. Think if we took that approach to murder or sex trafficking.

Anyone who sincerely wants to stop abortion has to first admit that is a fact and then look for other ways, and it'll no doubt take a lot of time and a lot of different measures. But making abortion illegal won't do it, won't stop it, so it must be all about punishment.
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Anyone who's sincerely wants to stop drinking and driving has to First admit that making it illegal won't stop it. And then look for other ways, and it'll no doubt take a lot of time and a lot of different measures. But making drinking and driving illegal won't do it, it won't stop it, so it must be all about punishment.

I seriously could make that exact same argument about any crime and it has exactly the same credibility as it does when you make it about abortion. That's why we have enforcement that's why we have courts making laws isn't about making Utopia people break them.
edit- and at the next hint of condescension from you I'm done here.
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I'm sorry a good argument that you can't debate is not condescension it's triumphant and if you're done you can see it the point because you can't argue. You can harams about it and tell yourself that it's because I offended you but I didn't do that with condescension I did that with an argument you can't debate and you are silence will be proof of that.
 
CLAX1911 said:
so if birth control isn't enough for women why is it enough for men? What you're doing is holding a double standard and the only reason I can come up with that is because you think women need a handicap.
you insist on this with nothing really to back it up because it allows you to keep your double standard.

It is absolutely material. because if they didn't get pregnant in the first place they wouldn't eat an abortion and it's easy enough to avoid it.

or at least that expectation is good enough for men but I know you're not really saying women are somehow incapable or inferior to men You're Just implying it.
but telling a man you're at the mercy of a woman's choice, and telling a woman whatever she decides there will be no consequences for her is establishing a double standard.

so we should legalize molesting children because laws against it won't stop at they'll just push it underground.

The argument against making a law is that some people will just break it is not an argument against the law it's an argument for enforcement. Think if we took that approach to murder or sex trafficking.


Anyone who's sincerely wants to stop drinking and driving has to First admit that making it illegal won't stop it. And then look for other ways, and it'll no doubt take a lot of time and a lot of different measures. But making drinking and driving illegal won't do it, it won't stop it, so it must be all about punishment.

I seriously could make that exact same argument about any crime and it has exactly the same credibility as it does when you make it about abortion. That's why we have enforcement that's why we have courts making laws isn't about making Utopia people break them.
I'm sorry a good argument that you can't debate is not condescension it's triumphant and if you're done you can see it the point because you can't argue. You can harams about it and tell yourself that it's because I offended you but I didn't do that with condescension I did that with an argument you can't debate and you are silence will be proof of that.
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Are you arguing that abortion should be illegal? Because you're all over the map here. It sounds like you object to abortion because it gives an advantage to a woman that isn't available to a man. And I'll ask you to quote me implying that a woman is incapable or inferior, not just claim that I did.
Like I said in my first post, this isn't about whether a woman should have an abortion, It's about whether she should have a right to a safe abortion. And as for your DWI analogy, obviously the law doesn't prevent it. But nobody has to drive while drunk to prevent themselves spending the next 18 years in poverty, either. The two are nowhere near analogous.
Condescension isn't making an argument I can't answer, it's talking down to me like we're a couple of teenagers bickering on Twitter. You know this. You do it all the time- you ignore the points others make and insist on making the subject something you feel comfortable in and, failing to change the subject, you devolve into juvenile bickering.
The point I'm making and you're avoiding is that a woman has a right to a safe abortion, a legitimate medical procedure.
 
Dayton3 said:
Why do you (among many) continue to claim that people opposing abortion want to "punish women for having sex"?
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Because most, if not all, the people opposing abortion strongly favor making abortion illegal. Making abortion illegal would force many women to stay pregnant and give birth against their will, when they never wanted to get pregnant in the first place. I call that punishing women for choosing to have sex, even if you don't.
 
OceanBlues1 said:
Because most, if not all, the people opposing abortion strongly favor making abortion illegal. Making abortion illegal would force many women to stay pregnant and give birth against their will, when they never wanted to get pregnant in the first place. I call that punishing women for choosing to have sex, even if you don't.
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Why? If women don't want to get pregnant why don't they use birth control reliably? And yeah, I know you're going to bring up pregnancies due to rape or birth control failure. We both know that the pregnancies due to those reasons are an extremely small number of the total numbers of abortions performed.
 
Dayton3 said:
Why? If women don't want to get pregnant why don't they use birth control reliably? And yeah, I know you're going to bring up pregnancies due to rape or birth control failure. We both know that the pregnancies due to those reasons are an extremely small number of the total numbers of abortions performed.
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Do we deny treatment to someone that forgot to wear their seatbelt?


Buckle up
 
Dayton3 said:
Why? If it were possible, why not tie medical treatment to responsible conduct?
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It's not possible.

Deny heart treatment to fat people


Deny cancer treatment to smokers



You would need a dictatorship to enact that



Its utterly laughable
 
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