US Power Grid Operators Warn Renewable Energy Could Cause Blackouts

[longview]

US Power Grid Operators Warn Renewable Energy Could Cause Blackouts​

The OP claims it's renewables that are "the big bad thing" that's going to make electric supplies wink out this summer.

I say it's greedy corporate owned utilities that don't see a reason to build more capacity and running to the government for bailouts, which has been the standard business model
ever since Reagan-style deregulation became the norm.
Also, let's think about the states that are actively trying to PUNISH people who want to install residential solar power.

Could Florida turn off the sun? Advocates say a utility-backed bill imperils rooftop solar in the Sunshine State | CNN Politics

Steve Rutherford had a unique mission as a Navy SEAL: Help the military harness the power of the sun.

www.cnn.com

In 2021, a national network of utility interest groups and fossil fuel-linked think tanks continues to offer funding, advice and support to utilities across the country seeking to undermine rooftop solar power. These include:

• Edison Electric Institute. Edison Electric Institute (EEI), the trade group that represents U.S. investor-owned electric utilities, developed the model for utilities to use in attacking solar at the state level. EEI worked with the American Legislative Exchange Council to create model legislation to attack net metering. EEI has trained utility executives in how to run advocacy campaigns and has consistently been a major donor to national Congressional candidates and parties.
• Consumer Energy Alliance. The Consumer Energy Alliance (CEA) is a Houston-based front group for the utility and fossil fuel industry, representing companies like Florida Power & Light, ExxonMobil, Chevron and Shell Oil CEA has spent resources or shipped representatives across the country to help utilities fight their battles in states like Florida, Indiana and Utah.
• The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). ALEC is a nationwide organization funded in part by anti-solar interests including major utilities, fossil fuel companies and affiliated lobby groups. ALEC claims to be primarily a membership organization but is dominated by its corporate and other outside donors, who provide 98% of its budget. It has worked for years to fight renewable energy and pro-solar policies across the country by coordinating with utilities and other local special interests and introducing legislation through policymakers who are ALEC members.
• Koch Industries. The Koch organization has provided funding to the national fight against solar by funneling tens of millions of dollars through a network of opaque nonprofits. The Koch-funded campaign organization Americans for Prosperity (AFP) has carried out extensive anti-solar organizing efforts. Koch organizations have directly supported utility fights against solar power in a number of states.

We're flying electric helicopters on Mars yet you can't turn on your clothes dryer in Texas. That's because scientists are in charge of Mars, and Republicans are in charge of Texas.

I am guessing that you do not understand what is at risk with one for one net metering!
If one to one net metering is forced on the utilities, they will be forced into bankruptcy.
Before that happens, they will petition the court for relief, and win, because gross profits are
required for a business to continue to offer a service.
The likely remedy is that only grid assist home solar will be allowed to attach to the grid's private property.
A better solution, is to come up with a national grid connection standard that both solar homeowners and grid operators can live with.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I am guessing that you do not understand what is at risk with one for one net metering!
If one to one net metering is forced on the utilities, they will be forced into bankruptcy.
Before that happens, they will petition the court for relief, and win, because gross profits are
required for a business to continue to offer a service.
The likely remedy is that only grid assist home solar will be allowed to attach to the grid's private property.
A better solution, is to come up with a national grid connection standard that both solar homeowners and grid operators can live with.

I understand completely what net metering entails.
And if investor owned central utilities will allow for grid assist systems, that's fine because that IS the dominant application anyway...not very many people want or try to go 100% off grid.
The issue is not "residential power consumers hoping to get rich on net metering payments", the issue is reliable backup for when the investor owned grid can't keep up with demand.

And any regulations (ahhhh, there's that word again, in a Republican dominated sphere!! WOW!!!) would HAVE to include allowances for battery or generator backup so that the systems
can operate when the sun is not shining. Interesting how DEREGULATION runs into a brick wall when large investor owned utilities are up against ordinary individuals who want to roll their own power schemes.

 

[longview]

I understand completely what net metering entails.
And if investor owned central utilities will allow for grid assist systems, that's fine because that IS the dominant application anyway...not very many people want or try to go 100% off grid.
The issue is not "residential power consumers hoping to get rich on net metering payments", the issue is reliable backup for when the investor owned grid can't keep up with demand.

And any regulations (ahhhh, there's that word again, in a Republican dominated sphere!! WOW!!!) would HAVE to include allowances for battery or generator backup so that the systems
can operate when the sun is not shining. Interesting how DEREGULATION runs into a brick wall when large investor owned utilities are up against ordinary individuals who want to roll their own power schemes.

Again the problem is not that the solar homeowners generate a surplus, but that any Mwh that come from the
poor duty cycle alternate energy supplies, required a hot backup power plant being ready to pick up the shortfalls when
they happen. In addition to that is Net metering, where the utility is required to give the homeowner a one for one credit
for each Kwh of surplus electricity.

 

[The Old Soul]

I do not agree with them but, many current solar homeowners are causing the prices of electricity to increase for non solar users (the poor).
the reason is that the Utility must make up the higher cost for giving credit to solar homeowners for surplus electricity.
at 1 or 2 % it is not a big deal, but at 10% it becomes a large factor in the cost of goods sold.
the price of something without a guaranteed supply, should be less than something with a guaranteed supply, not more.
This means that the surplus power should have a price slightly below the wholesale rate.
The savings to the homeowner should be from the electricity not purchased, this would encourage home batteries.

The power company is selling the surplus power back to it's customers at a profit, to them; actually more considering they do not have to pay for generating the surplus power in the first place:

LINK: If your solar panels are producing more electricity than your home is using, the excess energy is sent to the grid and is valued at just $0.09 per kWh, or about 25% less than the retail rate. That amount is then applied to your utility bill as a credit to offset future energy costs. APS calls this the ‘Resource Comparison Proxy Export Rate’ (RCP rate).

 

[longview]

The power company is selling the surplus power back to it's customers at a profit, to them; actually more considering they do not have to pay for generating the surplus power in the first place:

LINK: If your solar panels are producing more electricity than your home is using, the excess energy is sent to the grid and is valued at just $0.09 per kWh, or about 25% less than the retail rate. That amount is then applied to your utility bill as a credit to offset future energy costs. APS calls this the ‘Resource Comparison Proxy Export Rate’ (RCP rate).

Not if they are purchasing it with retail value credits!
Consider that if they normally buy each kWh at $.05 and sell it for $0.12 per kWh, a $0.07 per kWh profit.
Under the net metering you describe, the utility is still selling each kWh at $0.12, but the are paying $0.09 per kWh,
a profit of only $0.03 per Kwh. They are losing $0.04 per kWh of gross profit for each surplus kWh!

 

[The Old Soul]

Not if they are purchasing it with retail value credits!
Consider that if they normally buy each kWh at $.05 and sell it for $0.12 per kWh, a $0.07 per kWh profit.
Under the net metering you describe, the utility is still selling each kWh at $0.12, but the are paying $0.09 per kWh,
a profit of only $0.03 per Kwh. They are losing $0.04 per kWh of gross profit for each surplus kWh!

The numbers the article was using were crediting the surplus back to the individual with a discount off their bill, which keeps the numbers at 25% for off-peak charges. The $0.09 remains the same when the on-peak charges are closer to double. I've gone over this with the neighbors who have solar evaluating their actual, itemized bills:

For example, let’s say your solar panels produce 5 kWh of electricity between 1 PM and 2 PM, but your home only uses 3 kWh. That means you’ll have 2 kWh of solar electricity that you’ll send to the grid. APS will give you a credit on your bill of $0.18 (2 kWh x $0.09). That $0.18 will then be used to cover a portion of the costs of electricity you take from the grid later in the day.

 

[longview]

The numbers the article was using were crediting the surplus back to the individual with a discount off their bill, which keeps the numbers at 25% for off-peak charges. The $0.09 remains the same when the on-peak charges are closer to double. I've gone over this with the neighbors who have solar evaluating their actual, itemized bills:

Right, except the $0.18 per kWh is greater that what the utility normally buys each kWh for.

 

[PoS]

Video players aren't new tech, they came out in the 1950's!!


View attachment 67391130
View attachment 67391131

No one is talking about video players, so your silly strawman is silly.

 

[longview]

Right, except the $0.18 per kWh is greater that what the utility normally buys each kWh for.

Sorry I wrote that wrong, the $0.09 per kWh is greater than what the utility normally buy each kWh for, which is about $0.05 per kWh.

 

[bluesmoke]

What competition? More expensive renewable energy is forced upon them. They are no longer as profitable to operate coal because of increased regulations, and only operation as a fill in capacity to renewables. Because they are not allowed to opperate at efficiency, it is a forced cost increase of operations.

Yes, they decide to decommission come faster than they would otherwise, but it is being forced upon them,.

You shouldn't make them out as the bad guy.

Yes, and battery technology is too expensive still.

This is all because of agenda driven scares.

Nothing you said refutes anything in my post.

The number one concern of any corp is govt regs. They take the path of least resistance that produces the most sales and profit, incl such major regards to regs.

Renewables are becoming more economically viable, hence that is where the money is going. Private enterprise at work.

 

[longview]

Nothing you said refutes anything in my post.

The number one concern of any corp is govt regs. They take the path of least resistance that produces the most sales and profit, incl such major regards to regs.

Renewables are becoming more economically viable, hence that is where the money is going. Private enterprise at work.

Renewables have come down in price, but that does not mean that cost reduction is reflected in what the utility pays
for the electricity generated. Where net metering is required, the utility is forced to pay a price per kWh higher than
what they pay for other wholesale electricity, and this increases the overall cost of goods sold.
We can use the example of a grocer sells 500 lbs of tomatoes per week, but can only buy 400 lbs
at the wholesale rate of $0.50 per lb, the other 100 lbs he must purchase at say $1.00 per lb.
This would increase his cost of goods sold from $250 to $300.
It works the same way if the utility is forced to give a $0.10 credit for solar electricity.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Nothing you said refutes anything in my post.

The number one concern of any corp is govt regs. They take the path of least resistance that produces the most sales and profit, incl such major regards to regs.

Renewables are becoming more economically viable, hence that is where the money is going. Private enterprise at work.

How well would it work if they only got the subsidies and tax breaks that existing power gets?

 

[bluesmoke]

Renewables have come down in price, but that does not mean that cost reduction is reflected in what the utility pays
for the electricity generated. Where net metering is required, the utility is forced to pay a price per kWh higher than
what they pay for other wholesale electricity, and this increases the overall cost of goods sold.
We can use the example of a grocer sells 500 lbs of tomatoes per week, but can only buy 400 lbs
at the wholesale rate of $0.50 per lb, the other 100 lbs he must purchase at say $1.00 per lb.
This would increase his cost of goods sold from $250 to $300.
It works the same way if the utility is forced to give a $0.10 credit for solar electricity.

I don't have a problem with that "subsidy". Regardless, the cost is coming down, besides in only the way you explain.

 

[bluesmoke]

How well would it work if they only got the subsidies and tax breaks that existing power gets?

How well if they got what existing power used to get?

 

[longview]

I don't have a problem with that "subsidy". Regardless, the cost is coming down, besides in only the way you explain.

Then you do not understand, your cost may be down, but only at the expense of your non solar neighbors!

 

[LostInSeattle]

Renewables have come down in price, but that does not mean that cost reduction is reflected in what the utility pays
for the electricity generated. Where net metering is required, the utility is forced to pay a price per kWh higher than
what they pay for other wholesale electricity, and this increases the overall cost of goods sold.
We can use the example of a grocer sells 500 lbs of tomatoes per week, but can only buy 400 lbs
at the wholesale rate of $0.50 per lb, the other 100 lbs he must purchase at say $1.00 per lb.
This would increase his cost of goods sold from $250 to $300.
It works the same way if the utility is forced to give a $0.10 credit for solar electricity.

Yes. However, the actual subsidy varies and is difficult to calculate. The retail price of electricity has three major components: generation, transmission, distribution. There are bunch of taxes and FERC fees and nuclear decommissioning costs and other stuff depending on your location, but those three are the principle ones.

The issue with net metering is that utilities are not compensated for distribution costs; there is no transmission cost and generation is embedded. The missing components in most calculations of net metering as a "subsidy" to the solar customer are: 1) the extent to which utilities get to defer investment in distribution infrastructure by utilizing distributed rooftop generation, and 2), the value to the solar customer of having the grid as a night time/low solar production time electricity source. Net metering has the benefit of being easy, and as you pointed out, at low solar penetration levels the added cost (and value) are low. As penetration rise, that situation changes. I imagine that the particulars differ by utility and area.

 

[longview]

Yes. However, the actual subsidy varies and is difficult to calculate. The retail price of electricity has three major components: generation, transmission, distribution. There are bunch of taxes and FERC fees and nuclear decommissioning costs and other stuff depending on your location, but those three are the principle ones.

The issue with net metering is that utilities are not compensated for distribution costs; there is no transmission cost and generation is embedded. The missing components in most calculations of net metering as a "subsidy" to the solar customer are: 1) the extent to which utilities get to defer investment in distribution infrastructure by utilizing distributed rooftop generation, and 2), the value to the solar customer of having the grid as a night time/low solar production time electricity source. Net metering has the benefit of being easy, and as you pointed out, at low solar penetration levels the added cost (and value) are low. As penetration rise, that situation changes. I imagine that the particulars differ by utility and area.

If the solar generator is given anything close to a retail credit for each surplus kWh, then most of the net profit is removed.
While the plans vary, we need a unified plan that both utility and solar customers can live with.
I not sure something is a subsidy when the government is requiring someone else to give out the credit.

 

[Glitch]

Electricity Shortage Warnings Grow Across U.S.

Electric-grid operators are warning that power-generating capacity is struggling to keep up with demand, a gap that could lead to rolling blackouts during heat waves or other peak periods as soon as this year.

www.wsj.com

Here's some relevant quotes from the article:





Yup. More renewable energy replacing fossil fuel power outputs = more blackouts. Welcome to the climate cult utopia.

Over reliance on renewable energy is easily solved. Replace the leftist filth that is making the stupid decisions.

What won't be so easily solved is what will happen to our energy grid when the next X-40+ solar flare hits Earth. The last one missed Earth by just nine (9) days in 2012. We are reaching the peak of the sun's solar activity again in 2025. Making another 1859 Carrington Event not only possible, but likely. There have already been six solar flares of that size or larger during the last century that have just missed hitting Earth. Our dependence upon electrical devices makes us particularly vulnerable today. In 1859 all we had was the telegraph. Today such an event would cost more than ten category 5 hurricanes hitting the US all at the same time, and take anywhere from 4 to 10 years to recover. Depending on how many transformers blow. It will also be world-wide, and not isolated to just the US.

 

[bluesmoke]

Then you do not understand, your cost may be down, but only at the expense of your non solar neighbors!

Of course I understand that. Do you understand education is at the expense of those incl people without children?

 

[longview]

Of course I understand that. Do you understand education is at the expense of those incl people without children?

Yes, but that is actually different. Education benefits everyone, one to one net metering only places an undue burden
on people who cannot afford solar panels.

 

[bluesmoke]

Yes, but that is actually different. Education benefits everyone, one to one net metering only places an undue burden
on people who cannot afford solar panels.

You mean like people that can't afford and education? They can't benefit from education if they can't afford to pay for it.

 

[longview]

You mean like people that can't afford and education? They can't benefit from education if they can't afford to pay for it.

Do move the goal posts, your comment, in post #94
"Do you understand education is at the expense of those incl people without children?"
was about public K-12 education, the one that people pay for including people without children.

 

[bluesmoke]

Do move the goal posts, your comment, in post #94
"Do you understand education is at the expense of those incl people without children?"
was about public K-12 education, the one that people pay for including people without children.

Do answer the question.

 

[longview]

Do answer the question.

Way back on June 21, you asked, "Do you understand education is at the expense of those incl people without children?"
School taxes are mostly K-12, some areas also have community college taxes, but adults can take classes there.
The additional expenses added to one's neighbors by someone using solar net metering is not as clear as taxes.
The electrical utility must cover their expenses or go bankrupt, giving a retail credit for electricity leaves no margin for the utility
to pay their expenses, increasing the overall cost of goods sold. This causes everyone's rates to increase,
part of the insidious nature of net metering, is that when the rates increase, so does the amount for each surplus credit.

 

[Roadvirus]

Someone gets it:

Alliant Energy Corp's Edgewater coal-fired plant in Sheboygan is one of at least six across the country that this summer have announced delays or potential delays to their planned closures, citing concerns about energy shortages.

U.S. coal plants delay closures in hurdle for clean energy transition

Travel brochures in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, tout the town’s beaches on Lake Michigan as the Malibu of the Midwest. But pages of glossy photos leave out a feature of the landscape: a coal-fired power plant on the shore that will remain open until mid 2025 instead of closing this year as planned.

www.reuters.com