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US Not Much Different Than Dictatorship

TimmyBoy

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So much for the US being a "free country." If the US was a "free country" then none of these things would have happenned, but the US is not a "free country" and that is why these things did happen and continue to happen. The laws discussed here are still in effect today that were passed by Congress:

Students Seek Pardons for WWI Seditionists By SARAH COOKE, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jan 10, 3:21 AM ET



HELENA, Mont. - It took just two words to land Polish immigrant Ben Kahn in prison for nearly three years during World War I.

The 38-year-old traveling liquor salesman called wartime food regulations in the United States a "big joke" while talking with a Montana hotel owner as he waited for breakfast in March 1918.

By lunchtime, Kahn had been arrested for violating Montana's Sedition Act. Less than a month later, he was in prison in Deer Lodge, sentenced to 7 1/2 to 20 years.

Nearly 90 years later, law students at the University of Montana are combing old court records and archive collections across the state to clear Kahn and 73 other Montanans convicted of sedition in 1918 and 1919.

The effort, known as the "Montana Sedition Project," was sparked by University of Montana journalism professor Clem Work's new book, "Darkest Before Dawn: Sedition and Free Speech in the American West."
Montana's Sedition Act was passed by a special session of the Legislature in 1918, but has since been repealed. It was one of the harshest in the country, Work said, and was the basis for a national sedition law passed by Congress the same year. An armistice ended the war later that year.

The laws sprang from a climate of mass panic and hysteria, in which German spies were feared around every corner and political dissidents were deemed a threat, Work said. German books were banned and burned, and preaching in German from church pulpits was forbidden.

"When the war came, all of those fears were ratcheted up," Work said. "This fear of Germany and German spies kind of dominated the consciousness of the state."

Many of the law students said they were shocked by the number of farmers, miners and other blue-collar Montanans convicted of making anti-government statements, and the comments that landed them in prison.
"You never know when those rights can be infringed on," said Katie Olson, 26, of Great Falls. "Even though this is something that happened almost 100 years ago, I definitely think it's still important."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060110/ap_on_re_us/war_of_words
 

danarhea

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TimmyBoy said:
So much for the US being a "free country." If the US was a "free country" then none of these things would have happenned, but the US is not a "free country" and that is why these things did happen and continue to happen. The laws discussed here are still in effect today that were passed by Congress:







http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060110/ap_on_re_us/war_of_words
Name any dictatorship in the world where there can be a revolution every 4 years, and the existing order thrown out of office without a shot being fired.
 

TimmyBoy

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danarhea said:
Name any dictatorship in the world where there can be a revolution every 4 years, and the existing order thrown out of office without a shot being fired.
I could say the US would fall into this category, but the fact of the matter is, their is no revolution in the US every 4 years nor can the existing order be thrown from office without a shot being fired in the US. Both the democrats and republicans basically represent the same order with some small, insignificant differences between the two.
 

chucknorris

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danarhea said:
Name any dictatorship in the world where there can be a revolution every 4 years, and the existing order thrown out of office without a shot being fired.
Just because a president is elected every four years does not make it a revolution. One third of Congress is up for election every four or six years (House vs Senate) so it would take a total of eighteen years to completely remove every person from the government. Not to mention the judicial branch.
 

danarhea

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TimmyBoy said:
I could say the US would fall into this category, but the fact of the matter is, their is no revolution in the US every 4 years nor can the existing order be thrown from office without a shot being fired in the US. Both the democrats and republicans basically represent the same order with some small, insignificant differences between the two.
Then the problem lies not with a dictator, but with we the people.
 

shuamort

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chucknorris said:
Just because a president is elected every four years does not make it a revolution. One third of Congress is up for election every four or six years (House vs Senate) so it would take a total of eighteen years to completely remove every person from the government. Not to mention the judicial branch.
There's no seat in congress that lasts for 18 years without election. Your math is incorrect.
 

oldreliable67

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Nearly 90 years later, law students at the University of Montana are combing old court records and archive collections across the state to clear Kahn and 73 other Montanans convicted of sedition in 1918 and 1919.
Name a dictatorship where

> the laws in question would be repealed, and

> 90 years later, a group of law students would be free to engage in this activity.
 

TimmyBoy

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oldreliable67 said:
Name a dictatorship where

> the laws in question would be repealed, and

> 90 years later, a group of law students would be free to engage in this activity.
The federal laws that were used to convict some of these people are still in effect today. The Alien and Seditions Act is still good today and in addition their is the oppressive Smith Act as well. They are direct repeal of Thomas Jefferson and the statements of the other founding fathers. This is a simple, indistibutable fact and facts cannot be legitimately disputed. The FBI has used these laws to "justify" their subversive COINTELPRO activities in the past and perhaps have used these laws today in similar actions.
 

Stu Ghatze

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TimmyBoy said:
So much for the US being a "free country." If the US was a "free country" then none of these things would have happenned, but the US is not a "free country" and that is why these things did happen and continue to happen. The laws discussed here are still in effect today that were passed by Congress:







http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060110/ap_on_re_us/war_of_words









I suppose anybody would "CHOOSE" to believe that IF their side was as impotent as the modern democratic party is these days! ;)
 
T

The Real McCoy

Name a dictatorship where the people are free to organize and condemn the leader.

Name a dictatorship where the leader is subject to checks and balances and can be tried for impeachment if he breaks the law.

Name a dictatorship where the leader is bound by a document.

Name a dictatorship where the people choose their leader every 4 years.
 

TimmyBoy

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Stu Ghatze said:
I suppose anybody would "CHOOSE" to believe that IF their side was as impotent as the modern democratic party is these days! ;)
Let's think about this for a minute. The idea of the US being a "free country" is simply a manufactered illusion created by dictators in the US. It is necessary to manufacter this illusion in the minds of people in order to keep tight, tyrannical control over them. You see politicans on TV talking good game about the US being a "free country" but lets look at the facts and see if the facts add up to the good game that politicans are talking on TV. Let's look at the actions and not the words. A good example back in the 1960s during the anti-war movement where the FBI used a provacteur who was called "Tommy the Traveler" where he was paid by the FBI and posed as an anti-war protestor. He would travel to college campuses, commit criminal acts to frame the anti-war groups he infiltrated and also encourage them to commit criminal acts like buring down military building or buildings that were related to the military. This had two purposes:

1) To suppress First Amendment protected rights of free speech of law abiding citizens.

2) To give oppression the face of legitimacy to make law abiding citizens appear criminal and thus the oppressive actions of the state seem justifiable when in fact the actions of the state are not justifiable and the actions of the citizens not criminal. In many cases these anti-war protestors refused to engage in the criminal activity that was encouraged by "Tommy the Traveler" and at times they became suscipicious of his intentions and motives, but nevertheless. they still found a way to arrest them anyway.

This is just one of many many examples that I can talk about how the illusion of the US being a "free country" being manufactered while in fact, the state is engaging in illegal, subversive activity and maintaining tight, unjustified, tyrannical control over the people.
 

oldreliable67

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TimmyBoy said:
The federal laws that were used to convict some of these people are still in effect today
But the state laws that were referred to in your question were repealed, were they not?
 

TimmyBoy

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oldreliable67 said:
But the state laws that were referred to in your question were repealed, were they not?
I don't know, but it doesn't make much difference when similar federal laws are still in existance and have not been repealed. These laws are still used today to suppress legitimate First Amendment rights of otherwise law abiding citizens. The FBI has arrested many people on these federal laws who did not otherwise engage in any criminal activity were only guilty of exercising their First Amendment rights.
 

oldreliable67

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TimmyBoy said:
This is just one of many many examples that I can talk about how the illusion of the US being a "free country" being manufactered while in fact, the state is engaging in illegal, subversive activity and maintaining tight, unjustified, tyrannical control over the people.
You're sort of mixing metaphors. On the one hand, you talk about dictators, then you talk about politicians (plural), the 'state', and the FBI exerting control. In order for a world like you describe to exist, there would necessarily exist a tight coordination between some central, monolithic governmental authority and the police apparatus, one that would exercise complete control over the populace. Which has never existed in the US, nor does it exist in the US today.

Look at your own example of "Tommy the Traveler". What was the end result? Exposure and ineffectiveness. Whatever the wisdom of the program, the end result was exposure. We survivied the '60s and early '70s intact, despite it being one of the more trying periods in post-WWII history: severe social upheavals, unpopular war, a disgraced President, etc. Nonetheless, our system of government prevailed.

Today, there are those who feel the executive branch of the government has exceeded its authority in the NSA surveillance matter. So what is happening? Not suppression, not firing squads. Investigations. Media and bloggers jumping all over it, from various and opposing points of view. Congressional hearings are planned. Government investigations of leaks of classified information for both the Plame and NSA instances.

Think of the time frame that you have used in your assertions: from the Alien and Seditions Act was passed in 1798, up thru the '60s, to today. A remarkable longevity for a form of government. The fact that it has survived this long intact speaks loudly for its efficacy.

The most distinguishing aspect of our democracy, the characterisitic that has been the key to its longevity, is the empowerment of the broad mass of people to get rid of bad rulers. For all its flaws, it is definitely the best system yet devised by man.
 

oldreliable67

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TimmyBoy said:
These laws are still used today to suppress legitimate First Amendment rights of otherwise law abiding citizens. The FBI has arrested many people on these federal laws who did not otherwise engage in any criminal activity were only guilty of exercising their First Amendment rights.
Without knowing the specifics of the instances to which you refer, I can only surmise that your assertion of not engaging "in any criminal activity were only guilty of exercising their First Amendment rights" is disputed by the FBI and/or other law enforcement agencies. Perhaps you would be more specific?
 

danarhea

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TimmyBoy said:
The federal laws that were used to convict some of these people are still in effect today. The Alien and Seditions Act is still good today and in addition their is the oppressive Smith Act as well. They are direct repeal of Thomas Jefferson and the statements of the other founding fathers. This is a simple, indistibutable fact and facts cannot be legitimately disputed. The FBI has used these laws to "justify" their subversive COINTELPRO activities in the past and perhaps have used these laws today in similar actions.
What historians refer to as The Alien Act is actually 2 bills passed by Congress, The Alien Act, and the Alien Enemies Act. The Alien and Sedition Acts, passed in 1798, were allowed to expire in 1800 and 1801. A fourth related act, the Naturalization Act, the first of these laws to pass while Adams was president, was repealed by Congress in 1802.

Ironically, while all 4 laws were designed to destroy Jefferson's party, they ended up helping Jefferson to be elected. Among the The first acts by Jefferson upon assuming the presidency was to pay back assessed fines to all those who were convicted, along with interest, and also to grant pardons to all.


Columbia Encyclopedia, sixth edition.

Folwell's Laws of the US.
 
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stsburns

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The Real McCoy said:
Name a dictatorship where the people are free to organize and condemn the leader.
Refuring to the american word of "mudslinging." Nothing dictator about that?

Name a dictatorship where the leader is subject to checks and balances and can be tried for impeachment if he breaks the law.
Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton. Still not one person dictating america.

Name a dictatorship where the leader is bound by a document.
Go The Real McCoy, the Consistution!

Name a dictatorship where the people choose their leader every 4 years.
I can think of Iraq, but Hussan always killed the canidate himself or hired someone to kill them. Which either made some citizens brave and go against him, or be a coward and let Saddam be the only canidate.

I aboslutely 100% agree with you!
 
T

The Real McCoy

stsburns said:
I can think of Iraq, but Hussan always killed the canidate himself or hired someone to kill them. Which either made some citizens brave and go against him, or be a coward and let Saddam be the only canidate.
Ballot in Iraq Under Saddam Hussein:

Who is your choise for president of Iraq?

A) Saddam Hussein
B) My tongue being cut out
 

TimmyBoy

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danarhea said:
What historians refer to as The Alien Act is actually 2 bills passed by Congress, The Alien Act, and the Alien Enemies Act. The Alien and Sedition Acts, passed in 1798, were allowed to expire in 1800 and 1801. A fourth related act, the Naturalization Act, the first of these laws to pass while Adams was president, was repealed by Congress in 1802.

Ironically, while all 4 laws were designed to destroy Jefferson's party, they ended up helping Jefferson to be elected. Among the The first acts by Jefferson upon assuming the presidency was to pay back assessed fines to all those who were convicted, along with interest, and also to grant pardons to all.


Columbia Encyclopedia, sixth edition.

Folwell's Laws of the US.
The Act that I was referring to is called the Sedition Act and it is sometimes referred to as the "alien and sediction act." It is a World War I law, still in effect, making it a crime to advocate the overthrow of the federal government. This curious repeal of Thomas Jefferson's assertion that citizens are obligated to revolt at any time the government becomes repressive or burdensome has been consistently used by the FBI to "justify" tyrannical oppression through subversive COINTELPRO activity. COINTELPRO is the acronym for Counter Intelligence Program in which the FBI goes after law abiding citizens who have an objectionable political viewpoint.

The other law that I talked about, The Smith Act was passed in the 1940s and is also still in effect, making it illegal to say things counter to government policy in times of war or national emergency. Often used by the US government to justify subversive, oppresive activity of law abiding American citizens who they view objectionable.
 

TimmyBoy

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"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers too plainly proves a deliberate, systematical plan of reducing us to slavery." -Thomas Jefferson
 
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TimmyBoy said:
So much for the US being a "free country." If the US was a "free country" then none of these things would have happenned, but the US is not a "free country" and that is why these things did happen and continue to happen. The laws discussed here are still in effect today that were passed by Congress:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060110/ap_on_re_us/war_of_words

THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE​

Here is the complete text of the Declaration of Independence. The original spelling and capitalization has been retained.

(Adopted by Congress on July 4, 1776)

The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:

For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton
 
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TimmyBoy

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danarhea said:
What historians refer to as The Alien Act is actually 2 bills passed by Congress, The Alien Act, and the Alien Enemies Act. The Alien and Sedition Acts, passed in 1798, were allowed to expire in 1800 and 1801. A fourth related act, the Naturalization Act, the first of these laws to pass while Adams was president, was repealed by Congress in 1802.

Ironically, while all 4 laws were designed to destroy Jefferson's party, they ended up helping Jefferson to be elected. Among the The first acts by Jefferson upon assuming the presidency was to pay back assessed fines to all those who were convicted, along with interest, and also to grant pardons to all.


Columbia Encyclopedia, sixth edition.

Folwell's Laws of the US.
The Sedition Act of 1918 was repealled sometime in the 1920s after the end of World War I. This act made it a crime to advocate the overthrow of the government or to say something bad about the government or any of it's institutions. The Smith Act, which is still in effect today, makes it a crime to advise or advocate the overthrow the government, which still goes against statements made by Thomas Jefferson (he is my favorite founding father, and yes I know he owned slaves). When I was being taught on the law as a police officer we talked about how it was against the law to advise or to become a member of group that advocates or advises the overthrow of the government. Which, is rather interesting because their are quite a few heavily armed militias around that advocate and advise such things anyway, and though they are watched and advise things that break the Smith Act laws, nothing seems to have happenned to them. But we also discussed some of these anti-government groups as well. In my classes, some were painted as disenfranchised and uneducated people who are extremists and white seperatists, which by and large is true. But some of them have legitimate gripes and are quite well educated and intelligent. Here is the link to the Smith Act and the Sedition Act of 1918:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE​

Here is the complete text of the Declaration of Independence. The original spelling and capitalization has been retained.

........ Lyman Hall, George Walton
Seriously TOT, post a link next time.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers too plainly proves a deliberate, systematical plan of reducing us to slavery." -Thomas Jefferson
So who is a slave to the USA?
 
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