US/NATO Provoked Ukraine War Say Most Experts On Russia

[ttwtt78640]

The USSR put missiles in Cuba and what was the US response? Almost WW3. NATO puts missiles in Poland and Slovakia and then "leaders" wonder WHY Russia is concerned, while openly pushing for the Ukraine to become part of NATO. Did they expect Russia to back down? If so that was a complete lack of intelligence. I have said this before; If Russia put missiles in Mexico and Canada would we stand for it? And the answer is of course not. Those of you too young to remember should read about the Cuban missile crisis. That was 90 miles from the US, not on the border.

There are no nuclear missiles in Poland or Slovakia. There are plans to put (more) NATO missile defense systems Poland.

 

[sanman]

Sorry, but you're confused if you don't realize that the U.S. is the NATO leader. We wouldn't have to ask the rest of Europe to contribute their fair share if they cared as much about NATO as we did.

The Russian collusion story was so credible because Trump has basically behaved like a Russian puppet. This is a simple case of democracy vs authoritarianism. It's good versus evil. It's a man who shuts down news outlets that contradict him. It's a man who throws protesters in prison and poisons opposition leaders.

I agree with you that the west should have guaranteed that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO. But I don't believe that this was genuinely Putin's concern. There was no chance that Ukraine would join NATO in the foreseeable future. Putin ultimately wants to subjugate Ukraine against their will.

in 2008, NATO had formally stated its goal to incorporate both Ukraine and Georgia into the organization. This triggered sharp responses from Russian diplomats, and also led to the short war between Russia and Georgia. The 2014 Capitol Insurrection coup in Ukraine was the final straw for Russia.

 

[Questerr]

It's like you just said "me waving my knife in your face and bringing it near your throat is not itself a violent action -- after all, I didn't actually cut you - yet"

Russia has historically been invaded time and time again from its western side. They have legitimate reason to be fearful for their security.
Repeated invasions of their homeland are what have made the Russians tough.



The solution here is to reduce conflict between all sides. But you don't want that -- you want a new war to fight -- because NATO was built for war, and it's been kept around to bring war back.

NATO is a defensive alliance. How is it “waving a knife” in anyone’s faces unless they are planning on attacking?

 

[Jkca1]

There are no nuclear missiles in Poland or Slovakia. There are plans to put (more) NATO missile defense systems Poland.

Does it really make a difference if the missiles are nukes or not? It's aggressive. We need to seriously talk about de-escalation.

 

[Questerr]

Does it really make a difference if the missiles are nukes or not? It's aggressive. We need to seriously talk about de-escalation.

How are defensive missiles aggressive?

 

[ttwtt78640]

It's like you just said "me waving my knife in your face and bringing it near your throat is not itself a violent action -- after all, I didn't actually cut you - yet"

Russia has historically been invaded time and time again from its western side. They have legitimate reason to be fearful for their security.
Repeated invasions of their homeland are what have made the Russians tough.



The solution here is to reduce conflict between all sides. But you don't want that -- you want a new war to fight -- because NATO was built for war, and it's been kept around to bring war back.

Don’t tell me what is “like what I just said”, address what I actually did say which was: other former USSR nations which have joined NATO have not been attacked by Russia. Might that fact be why Ukraine has expressed (some) interest in joining NATO?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Does it really make a difference if the missiles are nukes or not? It's aggressive. We need to seriously talk about de-escalation.

Absolutely, there is a difference between offensive and defensive weapons (and missile) systems.

 

[sanman]

Don’t tell me what is “like what I just said”, address what I actually did say which was: other former USSR nations which have joined NATO have not been attacked by Russia. Might that fact be why Ukraine has expressed (some) interest in joining NATO?

No, expansion of that alliance, which is no longer defensive, is an act of aggression. You're waving a knife in someone's face, bring it to their throat, and saying "technically this isn't violence". Sorry, but this is needless wanton aggression. NATO expansion has pushed the situation a long way down the path to war -- and now you're nitpicking over who took the final steps off the precipice.

 

[Questerr]

No, expansion of that alliance, which is no longer defensive, is an act of aggression. You're waving a knife in someone's face, bring it to their throat, and saying "technically this isn't violence". Sorry, but this is needless wanton aggression. NATO expansion has pushed the situation a long way down the path to war -- and now you're nitpicking over who took the final steps off the precipice.

The alliance is most definitely still defensive.

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

People, stop posting garbage youtube links without any arguments of your own or any comments and think you are making a case.

Oh waits, it's sanman so its trolling garbage

 

[sanman]

NATO is a defensive alliance. How is it “waving a knife” in anyone’s faces unless they are planning on attacking?

NATO is no longer defensive, and has discarded the defensive charter it was founded on, whereby it pledged to only fight on the soil of its own member states. That was discarded nearly 30 years ago.
NATO has become relentlessly expansionist.

Why was Victoria Nuland -- who as former Chief of Staff to Dick Cheney, was involved in the illegal invasion of Iraq -- in charge of Ukraine policy under Obama, and why was she allowed to organize a Capitol Insurrection street coup in in Kyiv in 2014? Her husband Robert Kagan was a leading Neo-Con who publicly wrote a strategy calling for the United States to basically invade and occupy the entire Middle East to act as a "benevolent dictatorship" there.

The 2014 Insurrection was indeed violent. Trade Unionists who rallied to oppose the regime change insurrection were chased down and burned alive by Neo-Nazis. Remember the incident in Odessa, where 39 people died?

 

[Phys251]

It's like you just said "me waving my knife in your face and bringing it near your throat is not itself a violent action -- after all, I didn't actually cut you - yet"

Russia has historically been invaded time and time again from its western side. They have legitimate reason to be fearful for their security.
Repeated invasions of their homeland are what have made the Russians tough.



The solution here is to reduce conflict between all sides. But you don't want that -- you want a new war to fight -- because NATO was built for war, and it's been kept around to bring war back.

No, YOU want this war. YOU want your boy Putin to keep oppressing Ukraine.

You should take a step back and see the bipartisan pushback against your Russian propaganda.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Ukraine may be getting attacked,

No “may be” to it.

but Russia is trying to attack the regime in control of Ukraine, to oust them.

Pure horse shit.

For Russia, NATO expansion into Ukraine is the final straw, for Russia. This is the clear redline.

**** Putin and his red line, and anyone that supports his invasion of a neighbor sovereign country.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

in 2008, NATO had formally stated its goal to incorporate both Ukraine and Georgia into the organization. This triggered sharp responses from Russian diplomats, and also led to the short war between Russia and Georgia. The 2014 Capitol Insurrection coup in Ukraine was the final straw for Russia.

2014 coup? Well if it was a coup and the Ukrainians really loved being governed by a Russian puppet then they should welcome their Russian liberators, right? Is that what you see happening?

You can't be serious. Do you believe that Putin is reuniting a willing Ukrainian people by destroying their country?

 

[Jkca1]

Absolutely, there is a difference between offensive and defensive weapons (and missile) systems.

So you have no problem with Russia putting defensive missiles on the Canadian and Mexican borders. That's a POV I have not heard.

 

[Questerr]

NATO is no longer defensive, and has discarded the defensive charter it was founded on, whereby it pledged to only fight on the soil of its own member states. That was discarded nearly 30 years ago.
NATO has become relentlessly expansionist.

Why was Victoria Nuland -- who as former Chief of Staff to Dick Cheney, was involved in the illegal invasion of Iraq -- in charge of Ukraine policy under Obama, and why was she allowed to organize a Capitol Insurrection street coup in in Kyiv in 2014? Her husband Robert Kagan was a leading Neo-Con who publicly wrote a strategy calling for the United States to basically invade and occupy the entire Middle East to act as a "benevolent dictatorship" there.

The 2014 Insurrection was indeed violent. Trade Unionists who rallied to oppose the regime change insurrection were chased down and burned alive by Neo-Nazis. Remember the incident in Odessa, where 39 people died?

Do you have any actual evidence beyond conspiracy theories that *NATO* organized the “2014 Insurrection”?

Source for your claim NATO discarded this supposed pledge?

 

[sanman]

No, YOU want this war. YOU want your boy Putin to keep oppressing Ukraine.

No, YOU wanted this war. You and your Neo-Cons wanted your Nazi-aligned coupmakers to keep oppressing Ukraine while using the Ukrainians to fight the Russians.
YOU want the Russians to predictably respond with more hostility, whereby they then send arms to other enemies of America in retaliation. This is so that YOU and your arms dealers can make more war profits with an ever-increasing spiral of war.

You should take a step back and see the bipartisan pushback against your Russian propaganda.

YOU should take a step back and see the Uniparty establishment who are obedient to the War Lobby.
Victoria Nuland was Chief of Staff for Republican Vice President Dick Cheney during the illegal Iraq invasion. She then became Undersecretary of State under Democrat Obama. The permanent ruling class in the Deep State -- the people you admire most, and want to become.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Do you believe that Putin is reuniting a willing Ukrainian people by destroying their country?

That is the giant pile of shit that OP is trying, and failing miserably, to peddle.

 

[Callen]

I have said this before; If Russia put missiles in Mexico and Canada would we stand for it? And the answer is of course not. Those of you too young to remember should read about the Cuban missile crisis. That was 90 miles from the US, not on the border.

That decision would rest with Canada and Mexico not with the US. Just as it did with Poland.

 

[dockside]

Ukraine may be getting attacked, but Russia is trying to attack the regime in control of Ukraine, to oust them.

For Russia, NATO expansion into Ukraine is the final straw, for Russia. This is the clear redline.

Your argument is "when I punched you in the ear, you didn't hit me back, when I punched you in the jaw, you didn't hit me back, but now when I punched you in the nose, you're hitting me!! Why have you suddenly become so violent?!?"

Yeah, right Purposefully, killing civilians, especially children, should do the trick. NOT.

 

[Phys251]

No, YOU wanted this war. You and your Neo-Cons wanted your Nazi-aligned coupmakers to keep oppressing Ukraine while using the Ukrainians to fight the Russians.
YOU want the Russians to predictably respond with more hostility, whereby they then send arms to other enemies of America in retaliation. This is so that YOU and your arms dealers can make more war profits with an ever-increasing spiral of war.

YOU should take a step back and see the Uniparty establishment who are obedient to the War Lobby.
Victoria Nuland was Chief of Staff for Republican Vice President Dick Cheney during the illegal Iraq invasion. She then became Undersecretary of State under Democrat Obama. The permanent ruling class in the Deep State -- the people you admire most, and want to become.

Try to make your Russian propaganda nonsense more legible. Who knows, we might stop thinking it comes from a troll farm.

 

[sanman]

Do you have any actual evidence beyond conspiracy theories that *NATO* organized the “2014 Insurrection”?

The recording of her orchestrating this crap was put online on Feb-4-2014, which was 2 weeks before the actual insurrection on Feb-18-2014.
Victoria Nuland is a warmonger. She's worked for both the Republican Bush-Cheney and Democrat Obama whitehouses.
She is married to Robert Kagan, who publicly wrote essays calling for the US to invade and occupy the entire Middle East, to established a "benevolent dictatorship" over them. So much for your love of "self-determination" -- what a CROCK!

Source for your claim NATO discarded this supposed pledge?

The NATO invasion of Yugoslavia resulted in NATO discarding this pledge. I'm disgusted you would even ask such an ignorant question. Acknowledge your ignorance on the basic facts of history.

 

[sanman]

Try to make your Russian propaganda nonsense more legible. Who knows, we might stop thinking it comes from a troll farm.

Liberal McCarthyites -- such a laughably absurd new phenomenon
But not surprising -- since we already have Liberal Racists and Liberal Misogynists

 

[Questerr]

The recording of her orchestrating this crap was put online on Feb-4-2014, which was 2 weeks before the actual insurrection on Feb-18-2014.
Victoria Nuland is a warmonger. She's worked for both the Republican Bush-Cheney and Democrat Obama whitehouses.
She is married to Robert Kagan, who publicly wrote essays calling for the US to invade and occupy the entire Middle East, to established a "benevolent dictatorship" over them. So much for your love of "self-determination" -- what a CROCK!



The NATO invasion of Yugoslavia resulted in NATO discarding this pledge. I'm disgusted you would even ask such an ignorant question. Acknowledge your ignorance on the basic facts of history.

And where in your conspiracy is the evidence it was a *NATO* operation in Ukraine? You have evidence it was a *US* operation.

Provided the text of this supposed pledge and the NATO signatures to it.

 

[Phys251]

Liberal McCarthyites

Who?

-- such a laughably absurd new phenomenon
But not surprising -- since we already have Liberal Racists and Liberal Misogynists

Having lost the debate, you're now just flinging around insults.