US Marines begin relocation from Okinawa to Guam (1 Viewer)

[Tigerace117]

You said something?

I couldn't make it out because of all the hyperbole.

The Okinawans want the US military off their island.

They’ve said so, freely and democratically, numerous times over the course of decades.

Crying “but Japan doesn’t respect the Okinawans either” doesn’t excuse or change that.

And American apologists trying to downplay the abuse Okinawans have faced at the hands of American troops speaks volumes.

 

[Fledermaus]

The Okinawans want the US military off their island.

They’ve said so, freely and democratically, numerous times over the course of decades.

Crying “but Japan doesn’t respect the Okinawans either” doesn’t excuse or change that.

And American apologists trying to downplay the abuse Okinawans have faced at the hands of American troops speaks volumes.

Who owns the prefecture of Okinawa?

 

[Tigerace117]

Who owns the prefecture of Okinawa?

Crying “but their colonial overlord doesn’t care” doesn’t make the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Okinawa go away.

No matter how much you whine.

 

[Fledermaus]

Crying “but their colonial overlord doesn’t care” doesn’t make the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Okinawa go away.

No matter how much you whine.

Japan isn't a "colonial overlord".

Please fail again.

JAPAN decides. Not Okinawa.

Don't like it? Complain to and about JAPAN.

 

[Bullseye]

The United States has begun relocating Marine Corps units from Okinawa. This move has been confirmed by both Tokyo and Washington, and it comes as a response to long-standing complaints from residents about the presence of American military bases.
The first group, consisting of about 100 logistics personnel from the III Marine Expeditionary Force, is set to move to U.S. territory
According to the plan, out of the approximately 19,000 U.S. Marines stationed in Okinawa, more than 4,000 will be relocated to Guam. This project was agreed upon by the governments of Japan and the U.S. in April 2012. Including those moving to Hawaii, a total of about 9,000 Marines will leave Japan. As a result, the number of U.S. Marines remaining in the prefecture will be reduced to about 10,000.

MSN

I wonder what that surrounding property will go for when all the servicemembers finally leave.

I just read about this. MC moving about 9000 of the 19000 on the island.

 

[Rich2018]

I just read about this. MC moving about 9000 of the 19000 on the island.

The USA should respect Japanese wishes more.

 

[Fledermaus]

The USA should respect Japanese wishes more.

It isn't the Japanese that want US forces of Okinawa.

 

[Bullseye]

The USA should respect Japanese wishes more.

Why do you think they're moving 9000 troops to Guam?

 

[Fledermaus]

Why do you think they're moving 9000 troops to Guam?

Gradual drawdown. This was projected back in 2012....

 

[Oozlefinch]

I would walk from MCAS Futenma to Kadena AFB occasionally.

I never had a bike there, but a couple of times I would run from Schwab to Hanson. And I was regularly getting Yen at the Credit Union so I could take the local busses. And when exploring on foot it was not unusual for me to wander 5 to 10 miles away from the gate I had left from. I had gotten a map of the bus system on the island, so if it was getting late or the weather bad and I was far from a gate, I could just take the bus back.

I even remember getting stoked one time when I was deep somewhere in Okinawa City, and found a second hand shop that had some dive gear at a damned good price. I would even walk out there several more times, and made some good money buying the gear they sold, then reselling it to other Marines at Schwab. The best kind of deal, because all three of us thought we had done good. And I would not be surprised if I was the only American customer he had.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Who owns the prefecture of Okinawa?

Makes me wonder if some in here are huge "State Rights" advocates. Because this is quite literally what their argument was.

 

[multivita-man]

This is a great example of when "facts lie". As I would be the first to say that any sexual assaults are wrong, and those that do it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But trying to blow a problem up to be bigger than it is is also wrong. And if people really cared about sexual assaults, then they should be going after colleges who largely underreport the problem (if not outright deny it even happens) instead of trying to use it as is common to attack the military.

I have no reason to doubt your statistics and you make valid points. Still, this is about the optics of a foreign force that has occupied an island for decades, and it should be pointed out that Okinawa, in a sense, regards itself as being somewhat distinct from the rest of Japan. There's not only resentment toward US forces whenever something like a sexual assault or a drunken soldier beats up a local in a bar; there's resentment toward Honshu/Tokyo as well.

 

[Tigerace117]

Japan isn't a "colonial overlord".

Please fail again.

JAPAN decides. Not Okinawa.

Don't like it? Complain to and about JAPAN.

Yes, it is. You bragging about how Japan disregards the people of Okinawa’s wishes only further proves me correct, actually, so thanks for that

The only failures I’ve seen are the American apologists who tried to downplay the level of abuse Okinawans have suffered at the hands of American occupiers.

Contrary to the fantasies you lot have invented, the people of the island have made it quite clear they don’t have any interest in the US military continuing said occupation....no matter how much you whine

 

[Fledermaus]

Yes, it is. You bragging about how Japan disregards the people of Okinawa’s wishes only further proves me correct, actually, so thanks for that

The only failures I’ve seen are the American apologists who tried to downplay the level of abuse Okinawans have suffered at the hands of American occupiers.

Contrary to the fantasies you lot have invented, the people of the island have made it quite clear they don’t have any interest in the US military continuing said occupation....no matter how much you whine

Intentional ignorance is noted.

Calling Japan a "colonial overlord" is intentional ignorance.

Believing Okinawa has the ability to remove US forces is intentional ignorance.

Your use of inflammatory hyperbole is often intentional ignorance in motion.

 

[SayMyName]

Yes. And a large number want them there. And Japan agreed to having us there.

The majority of Okinawans want the US to leave. The longer the US bases remain, the greater the calls for independence from Japan, which seized the island by force in 1879. Without US presence, Okinawa would be a much safer place and a premium travel destination.

Okinawa: Calls grow for reduction of US military presence – DW – 05/16/2022

Fifty years after the US ceded rule back to Tokyo, many Okinawans are calling for a renewed independence movement and to reduce the presence of US military bases.

www.dw.com

Indigenous Ryukyuans say it’s time for US military to leave Okinawa

Leaders say PFAS contamination from military bases is threatening Indigenous lives and rights.

grist.org

50 Years After US Occupation, Okinawa Continues to Resist Military Bases

The burden of hosting U.S. military bases continues to be a serious issue for Okinawa, even half a century after its return to Japan.

thediplomat.com

 

[Roadvirus]

The United States has begun relocating Marine Corps units from Okinawa. This move has been confirmed by both Tokyo and Washington, and it comes as a response to long-standing complaints from residents about the presence of American military bases.
The first group, consisting of about 100 logistics personnel from the III Marine Expeditionary Force, is set to move to U.S. territory
According to the plan, out of the approximately 19,000 U.S. Marines stationed in Okinawa, more than 4,000 will be relocated to Guam. This project was agreed upon by the governments of Japan and the U.S. in April 2012. Including those moving to Hawaii, a total of about 9,000 Marines will leave Japan. As a result, the number of U.S. Marines remaining in the prefecture will be reduced to about 10,000.

MSN

I wonder what that surrounding property will go for when all the servicemembers finally leave.

They can't do that! Guam will capsize!!!

 

[Oozlefinch]

The majority of Okinawans want the US to leave. The longer the US bases remain, the greater the calls for independence from Japan, which seized the island by force in 1879. Without US presence, Okinawa would be a much safer place and a premium travel destination.

It already is a major travel destination. It roughly holds the same place as Hawaii does in the US. A tropical island that a lot of people from Mainland Japan love to go to in the cold winter months. Before the pandemic, Okinawa got on average over 5 million visitors a year just from mainland Japan. Go along many areas, and it is not much different than Florida or Hawaii. And Naha is a major international airport that is primarily used by this tourist trade.

And an independent Okinawa? Are you freaking nuts? If they even tried that, they would be independent for almost no time at all before China tried to absorb them.

A possibly more aggressive policy toward Okinawa by China has been attracting attention in East Asia recently. The perception stems from an express reference made by Chinese President Xi Jinping to Japan’s southernmost islands, known as the Ryukyu, in early June during a visit to the China National Archives of Publications and Culture (CNAPC) and the Chinese Academy of History, a repository of Chinese classical books. It is rare for a Chinese president to make such a reference, giving rise to speculation that an underlying motive may be at play: a visit to China earlier this month by Denny Tamaki, governor of Okinawa Prefecture as part of a delegation from Japan.

Xi Jinping’s comment was made during his tour of the CNAPC, when he stopped in front of an exhibit and listened to the curator’s explanation. It even warranted a mention in the People’s Daily. The comment came in response to the curator’s explanation about the “Records of the Imperial Title-conferring Envoys to Ryukyu” of the Ming Dynasty. This book describes the envoys dispatched by the Ming Dynasty to Ryukyu to convey Ryukyu’s position as a tributary state of the Ming Dynasty. The work is widely known in China as it is believed to be the oldest record showing that the Senkaku Islands (known in China as the Diaoyu Islands) are Chinese territory. (In Japan, the passage in question is not considered to constitute proof of this.)

When the curator mentioned the passage relating to the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands, Xi remarked: “When I was working in Fuzhou, I knew that Fuzhou had a Ryukyu Museum and a Ryukyu tomb, and that Fuzhou had a deep relationship with Ryukyu, and that the 36 clans of Fujian went over to the Ryukyu Islands and settled there.” The Ryukyu Museum commemorates the envoys who came to China from Ryukyu to pay tribute to the Ming dynasty, and the Ryukyu tomb is the resting place of the Ryukyu people who died in Fuzhou. The 36 clans of Fujian, also referred to as the 36 clans of Kume, came to Ryukyu and oversaw its commitment to pay tribute to the Ming Dynasty.

China’s Okinawa Policy Attracts Attention

A potential new trigger in China-Japan relations emerges.

thediplomat.com

And just because many of the US forces are leaving, that is not the same as there being no more military. Japan is themselves taking over those former US bases and setting up their own bases there. Japan has already started setting up missile defense sites on the island, replacing US forces that had been doing that for over 5 decades. And they are considering adding at least another Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade, and relocating them to one of the Marine Bases when they leave.

Now here is something that is common, a lot of the land is desired by developers. Especially bases like Schwab and Kadena because of their locations (prime beachfront real estate). But nobody should be fooling themselves, even if the Marines leave, they are only going to be replaced by Japanese forces. I have seen the exact same thing happen in the US, especially at Seal Beach. Developers have been trying to get their hands on that California base for decades, but they never will. Even if the Navy was to pull out of it tomorrow, it will never be turned over for civilian use.

 

[Oozlefinch]

And as a side note on the claim of "Independence" and the strange dichotomy of the military on Okinawa, there is this to consider.

From 2017 to 2020, Japan was highly interested in placing Aegis Ashore facilities on Okinawa. And the main reason why Japan suddenly moved missile defense forces onto Okinawa in 2020 was the fear of the citizens of Okinawa when the program was cancelled.

Okinawa knows that because of their location, if the US was to just up and leave they would at that point be defenseless to China. Even if the US was to completely leave the island, key bases like Kadena and Schwab will continue to be military bases, just occupied by the JDSF and not the US. Kadena is simply too important of an airfield, and Schwab too important as an amphibious base. And if the Navy was to leave the Kin Red and Blue facilities and White Beach, those bases will not close. They will simply become Japanese Naval bases.

About the only base I can think of that might become excess and return to civilian control is the Northern Training Area (NTA). Of course, that is a rugged jungle and mountain area at the far northern part of the island, where literally nobody lives. The Japanese Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade could probably do all of their training needed in the inland areas of Camp Schwab, so would not need the NTA. But that land would be like 80% of the island, and pretty much worthless for civilian uses.

Most people likely have little idea of how rough the terrain of Okinawa is. Probably the second roughest terrain I have ever been stationed at, second only to Panama.

Okinawa · Okinawa, Japan

Okinawa, Japan

www.google.com

If traversing the island (which I did several times a week on average), once you head south and pass Ishikawa, the terrain is still rough, but more plains and hills. Not the steep almost cliff like terrain of Northern Okinawa. North of there you have a few flat areas (Kin, Henoko, Nago), but most of it is almost impassable terrain of dense jungle and steep mountains.

But I invite any that actually know how to read a topographical map to examine the one I linked above. I am not joking when I say it is among the toughest terrain I ever served in. Even rougher than my time in the Rocky or Sierra Mountains.

And I only say second to Panama because there were less things on Okinawa trying to kill you. About the only threat there were Habu. Panama had a hell of a lot more poisonous snakes, poisonous frogs, and even the freaking insects and palm trees there would try to kill you if they could.

 

[Fledermaus]

And as a side note on the claim of "Independence" and the strange dichotomy of the military on Okinawa, there is this to consider.

From 2017 to 2020, Japan was highly interested in placing Aegis Ashore facilities on Okinawa. And the main reason why Japan suddenly moved missile defense forces onto Okinawa in 2020 was the fear of the citizens of Okinawa when the program was cancelled.

Okinawa knows that because of their location, if the US was to just up and leave they would at that point be defenseless to China. Even if the US was to completely leave the island, key bases like Kadena and Schwab will continue to be military bases, just occupied by the JDSF and not the US. Kadena is simply too important of an airfield, and Schwab too important as an amphibious base. And if the Navy was to leave the Kin Red and Blue facilities and White Beach, those bases will not close. They will simply become Japanese Naval bases.

About the only base I can think of that might become excess and return to civilian control is the Northern Training Area (NTA). Of course, that is a rugged jungle and mountain area at the far northern part of the island, where literally nobody lives. The Japanese Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade could probably do all of their training needed in the inland areas of Camp Schwab, so would not need the NTA. But that land would be like 80% of the island, and pretty much worthless for civilian uses.

Most people likely have little idea of how rough the terrain of Okinawa is. Probably the second roughest terrain I have ever been stationed at, second only to Panama.

Okinawa · Okinawa, Japan

Okinawa, Japan

www.google.com

If traversing the island (which I did several times a week on average), once you head south and pass Ishikawa, the terrain is still rough, but more plains and hills. Not the steep almost cliff like terrain of Northern Okinawa. North of there you have a few flat areas (Kin, Henoko, Nago), but most of it is almost impassable terrain of dense jungle and steep mountains.

But I invite any that actually know how to read a topographical map to examine the one I linked above. I am not joking when I say it is among the toughest terrain I ever served in. Even rougher than my time in the Rocky or Sierra Mountains.

And I only say second to Panama because there were less things on Okinawa trying to kill you. About the only threat there were Habu. Panama had a hell of a lot more poisonous snakes, poisonous frogs, and even the freaking insects and palm trees there would try to kill you if they could.

I had a run in with a Habu. Killed it and kept it for a Safety Training day.

 

[SayMyName]

In the end, it is for Okinawans to decide. They are fully capable of deciding for themselves. The US military bases in Okinawa put a massive burden on the local people because of the environmental impacts that they inflict. These burdens manifest themselves in the forms of drinking water contamination, noise pollution, and habitat destruction. Then, there are the crimes, as mentioned above. If given the choice today between developing natural environments, pristine beaches, parks, businesses and resorts on lands currently held by the US military, or continuing the status quo, with its history of horrific crimes inflicted on the local community and the ongoing destruction of the environment, their choice would be clear.

 

[Fledermaus]

In the end, it is for Okinawans to decide. They are fully capable of deciding for themselves. The US military bases in Okinawa put a massive burden on the local people because of the environmental impacts that they inflict. These burdens manifest themselves in the forms of drinking water contamination, noise pollution, and habitat destruction. Then, there are the crimes, as mentioned above. If given the choice today between developing natural environments, pristine beaches, parks, businesses and resorts on lands currently held by the US military, or continuing the status quo, with its history of horrific crimes inflicted on the local community and the ongoing destruction of the environment, their choice would be clear.

Actually it is for Japan to decide.

 

[Oozlefinch]

In the end, it is for Okinawans to decide.

And where exactly is it up to the local residents where a military base is placed? Do the citizens of New Jersey have the right to demand the military close down Fort Dix? Can the citizens of Hampshire demand the UK shut down the Aldershot Garrison?

Such decisions are never made at the local level, those are national issues and decided at the national level.

 

[Tangmo]

Hai Nan island is China's Hawaii tropical tourist and vacation resort that I visited twice with Chinese friends during my 10 years in China (until 2022).

As with Guam at the right side of the map ha, Hainan island also capsized several years ago with the weight of $50bn of CCP military facilities and presence. And as with Guam ha Hainan was also recovered and set upright once again. Hainan now is about $10 bucks shy of the US military investment in Hawaii.



During my first visit we stayed at the Holiday Inn Resort from where if I hit a homerun it would land onto the Yulan Naval base and over its fence. I doubt it would be greeted with cheers however. Hainan has great seaside restaurants and stuff.

That east section of the base includes ballistic nuclear missile launch subs plus destroyers the resort staff said are almost always there. Hainan is the HQ of the CCP South Naval Fleet that is the largest by number of ships of the CCP's three naval fleets, the other two fleets being the Central and North fleets. None of 'em go very far or anywhere to speak of of course.

The island's vegetation, topography, skyline and waters are just spectacular. When they take you out to the jungle you could begin to believe you'll see some dinosaurs sooner or later it's just so wildly primitive and deeply green. Other than that it's naval naval naval. One of the four CCP satellite launch facilities is on the island given its just a homerun blast from the Equator. The other three launch sites are deep into China in the western deserts. There's also a PLA Rocket Force base on Hainan that has ballistic nuclear armed mobile ICBM launchers most of which are positioned around the mainland. All China's ICBM launchers are mobile.

Hainan was all farming and fishing until the Japanese occupation of China beginning in 1937. The Japanese established rubber and coconut plantations, did large scale mining of iron ore, bauxite, and alluvial tin. Japanese Army engineers built interconnected roads and rail lines to include new if small specialized port facilities. The CCP didn't get around to developing Hainan until Deng Xiao Ping in the late 1980s.

On the map I spent all my time in China either in Shenzhen City adjacent to Hong Kong or an hours drive inland in Guangzhou City both of which are in Guang Dong province where the provincial GDP is almost $2 Trillion to lead China's provinces in productivity. Guangdong province includes Ye Olde Canton which is where I spent my time.

 

[joluoto]

I think the Okinawans have wanted the Americans to leave for quite some time, so they will be happy about this.

 

[Tigerace117]

Intentional ignorance is noted.

Calling Japan a "colonial overlord" is intentional ignorance.

Believing Okinawa has the ability to remove US forces is intentional ignorance.

Your use of inflammatory hyperbole is often intentional ignorance in motion.

No amount of whining can change the facts about Japan’s colonization of Okinawa.....and attempting to refer to well established facts as “hyperbole” is particularly dumb.

Japan absolutely is a colonial overlord in Okinawa, just as it was in Taiwan and Korea. Trying to deny that reality can’t change it....any more than it can change the facts about the systematic abuse Okinawan civilians faced at US hands from the battle onwards.