• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
61,937
Reaction score
19,052
Location
Lower Mainland of BC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

From CBS News

US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as President Ghani calls for talks

Kabul, Afghanistan -- Afghan President Ashraf Ghani said Monday the Taliban should "enter serious talks" with his government, as both the Taliban and Washington's top envoy touted significant progress during unprecedented negotiations in Qatar last week. A months-long diplomatic push by the United States to get the Taliban to talk to Kabul culminated in six days of meetings between the U.S. and the insurgents in Doha, but the Taliban have long refused to negotiate with the government of Afghanistan to end the 17-year conflict, branding them as "puppets." Even while engaging in the talks with the U.S., the militants have continued to stage deadly attacks on Afghan security forces.

"I call on the Taliban to... show their Afghan will, and accept Afghans' demand for peace, and enter serious talks with the Afghan government," Ghani said in a nationally televised address from the presidential palace in Kabul.

Both the Taliban and the U.S. cited "progress" over the weekend, and the U.S. envoy to the talks has said a "draft of a framework" for a peace deal has now been reached -- though the details still need to be filled in, and agreed to by Kabul.

COMMENT:-

I seem to recall that there was some minor "blowback" when outside parties (without bothering to involve the Czech government) discussed what would happen in Czechoslovakia some time back.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Any talk of a deal with the Taliban should make your hair stand on end. But...IF the Afghani people want to negotiate this deal and live by its arrangements then we should honor it...and get the hell out of Dodge. Because once they start with the Taliban they will be back under their control in short order...and if thats what they want...**** it. **** them. We did our job and should have been out of there a long time ago.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Taliban and "peace deal"... never thought I'd see those two together.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Taliban and "peace deal"... never thought I'd see those two together.

Some might consider it more appropriate to call that a "surrender deal".
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Any talk of a deal with the Taliban should make your hair stand on end. But...IF the Afghani people want to negotiate this deal and live by its arrangements then we should honor it...and get the hell out of Dodge. Because once they start with the Taliban they will be back under their control in short order...and if thats what they want...**** it. **** them. We did our job and should have been out of there a long time ago.

Who's asking the Afghan government about it?

The US doesn't appear to be doing that. If the US government was coordinating with the Afghan government then the Afghan government wouldn't be saying "Don't make a deal without us." (or words to that effect).
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Taliban and "peace deal"... never thought I'd see those two together.

Well, surprised by the world's greatest, stable genius, negotiator again were you?

The "Deal Maker" was when Mr. Trump persuaded the Taliban to agree to turn Osama bin Laden over to the US government the minute he set foot in Afghanistan again.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Some might consider it more appropriate to call that a "surrender deal".

Does the term "Munich Accord" have any meaning to you?
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Who's asking the Afghan government about it?

The US doesn't appear to be doing that. If the US government was coordinating with the Afghan government then the Afghan government wouldn't be saying "Don't make a deal without us." (or words to that effect).
Not so, at least not according to your article. It appears that in fact the Afghan government IS asking for it and the US is facilitating discussions with the Taliban who refuse to meet with the Afghan government at this time. Looks to me like what the US is doing is in accordance with what the Afghan government is asking...but the peace deal wont work unless and until the two sides sit down together.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Not so, at least not according to your article. It appears that in fact the Afghan government IS asking for it and the US is facilitating discussions with the Taliban who refuse to meet with the Afghan government at this time. Looks to me like what the US is doing is in accordance with what the Afghan government is asking...but the peace deal wont work unless and until the two sides sit down together.

As far as we know, the bare bones of the tentative deal that would lead to the US .troops being pulled out of Afghanistan. coming home, is that if the Taliban agree not to allow any attacks on US interests to be based in Afghanistan the US will .pull out. get its troops home to their families.

What happens in Afghanistan is NOT a part of that "deal".

U.S. inches closer to deal with Taliban that could lead to American troop pullout; Afghan president calls for direct talks with insurgents

U.S., Taliban Agree on Key Points in Peace Deal (sorry, article truncated unless you go around the pay wall).

and the current Afghan government is NOT involved in it at all (the Taliban taking the position that the REAL government of Afghanistan is located in Washington DC) and it doesn't (currently) appear that the US government cares.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

As far as we know, the bare bones of the tentative deal that would lead to the US .troops being pulled out of Afghanistan. coming home, is that if the Taliban agree not to allow any attacks on US interests to be based in Afghanistan the US will .pull out. get its troops home to their families.

What happens in Afghanistan is NOT a part of that "deal".

U.S. inches closer to deal with Taliban that could lead to American troop pullout; Afghan president calls for direct talks with insurgents

U.S., Taliban Agree on Key Points in Peace Deal (sorry, article truncated unless you go around the pay wall).

and the current Afghan government is NOT involved in it at all (the Taliban taking the position that the REAL government of Afghanistan is located in Washington DC) and it doesn't (currently) appear that the US government cares.
"We want peace, we want it fast but we want it with a plan," Ghani said in his address Monday.

"We should not forget that the victims of this war are Afghans and the peace process should also be Afghan-led... No Afghan wants foreign troops to remain in their country indefinitely. No Afghan wants to face suicide attacks in hospitals, schools, the mosques, and parks."

Ghani spoke hours after his office said it has been reassured by Washington that the talks in Qatar remain geared towards bringing the insurgents to the table with Kabul.

U.S. special envoy Zalmay Khalilzad -- who has been leading the negotiations -- arrived in Afghanistan late Sunday to update officials including Ghani on the progress made."

Seems like they care at least a little bit.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

"We want peace, we want it fast but we want it with a plan," Ghani said in his address Monday.

"We should not forget that the victims of this war are Afghans and the peace process should also be Afghan-led... No Afghan wants foreign troops to remain in their country indefinitely. No Afghan wants to face suicide attacks in hospitals, schools, the mosques, and parks."

Ghani spoke hours after his office said it has been reassured by Washington that the talks in Qatar remain geared towards bringing the insurgents to the table with Kabul.

U.S. special envoy Zalmay Khalilzad -- who has been leading the negotiations -- arrived in Afghanistan late Sunday to update officials including Ghani on the progress made."

Seems like they care at least a little bit.

Oh the current Afghan government caress about what the effects on the Afghan government that the deal that the US is going to strike with the Taliban are going to be.

The problem is that the US government doesn't seem to care about what the effects on the current Afghan government that the deal that the US is going to strike with the Taliban are going to be. It seems that the primary interest of the US government is to be able to declare victory and go home so that Mr. Trump can announce

"I hold in my hand a piece of paper that will ensure peace in our time.".
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Taliban and "peace deal"... never thought I'd see those two together.

Indeed. I'll be eager to read the finer points since the Taliban is pretty one dimensional in its views of law outside of strict adherence to Islamic law. If this means that peace is essentially keeping the Taliban happy, Afghanistan will be more or less in the same boat it was in when they were in power.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Indeed. I'll be eager to read the finer points since the Taliban is pretty one dimensional in its views of law outside of strict adherence to Islamic law. If this means that peace is essentially keeping the Taliban happy, Afghanistan will be more or less in the same boat it was in when they were in power.

The American invasion and conquest of Afghanistan had nothing whatsoever to do with "improving the lot" of the Afghans.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

I'm sure that whatever they agree on, the Taliban can be relied upon to keep their word.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

The American invasion and conquest of Afghanistan had nothing whatsoever to do with "improving the lot" of the Afghans.

I know, but it makes it seem like an even more pointless endeavor if the Taliban is left having significant influence in the country; which is where I think this is heading anyway. The truth is Afghanistan has always struggled with progress because it is mainly a rural nation, so it's going to change much if at all.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

I'm sure that whatever they agree on, the Taliban can be relied upon to keep their word.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could have said "I'm sure that whatever they agree on, both the Taliban and Mr. Trump can be relied upon to keep their word."?
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

I know, but it makes it seem like an even more pointless endeavor if the Taliban is left having significant influence in the country; which is where I think this is heading anyway. The truth is Afghanistan has always struggled with progress because it is mainly a rural nation, so it's going to change much if at all.

Is "rural" the currently acceptable alternative for "tribal"?

Rural areas cover 97 percent of (America's) land area but contain 19.3 percent of the population (about 60 million people),
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

From CBS News

US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as President Ghani calls for talks

Kabul, Afghanistan -- Afghan President Ashraf Ghani said Monday the Taliban should "enter serious talks" with his government, as both the Taliban and Washington's top envoy touted significant progress during unprecedented negotiations in Qatar last week. A months-long diplomatic push by the United States to get the Taliban to talk to Kabul culminated in six days of meetings between the U.S. and the insurgents in Doha, but the Taliban have long refused to negotiate with the government of Afghanistan to end the 17-year conflict, branding them as "puppets." Even while engaging in the talks with the U.S., the militants have continued to stage deadly attacks on Afghan security forces.

"I call on the Taliban to... show their Afghan will, and accept Afghans' demand for peace, and enter serious talks with the Afghan government," Ghani said in a nationally televised address from the presidential palace in Kabul.

Both the Taliban and the U.S. cited "progress" over the weekend, and the U.S. envoy to the talks has said a "draft of a framework" for a peace deal has now been reached -- though the details still need to be filled in, and agreed to by Kabul.

COMMENT:-

I seem to recall that there was some minor "blowback" when outside parties (without bothering to involve the Czech government) discussed what would happen in Czechoslovakia some time back.

Not sure what you are advocating here. Unending war by the U.S. in Afghanistan? More American kids killed and wounded? Spending tens of billions for what exactly? Rejoice at refusing to spend additional dollars for border security for our borders but waste lives and dollars there because Obama thought it was the one war we should fight?
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

Not sure what you are advocating here.

I am not "advocating" anything here.

I am, however, pointing out certain historical parallels.

The first such historical parallel was the AngloFrench decision to abandon Czecheslovakia and make agreements concerning it WITHOUT involving the Czechs in the negotiations.

The second such historical parallel is to the way that the "conservatives" characterized the removal of troops from Iraq which happened when Mr. Obama was the President (but which was done in accordance with the negotiated terms arrived at while Mr. Bush had been the President).

Unending war by the U.S. in Afghanistan?

If you look at the historical record since WWII, if it wasn't going to be Afghanistan it would be someplace else.

More American kids killed and wounded?

The government of Afghanistan isn't sending "American kids" anywhere. Talk to the government that IS sending "American kids" off to be killed and wounded.

Spending tens of billions for what exactly?

If the US government stopped spending those tens of billions of dollars on "defence", the shock to the American economy would be devastating.

Rejoice at refusing to spend additional dollars for border security for our borders but waste lives and dollars there because Obama thought it was the one war we should fight?

Considering that the Democrat's position is NOT that they are "refusing to spend additional dollars for border security" but rather that they are "refusing to spend additional dollars for border security measures that do not work, and which (even if they did work) wouldn't start working for between five and ten years", and considering that Mr. Obama's comment was in the context of "if it was going to be fought at all, it should have fought and won rather than just using it as a springboard for a war that we shouldn't have fought at all", your comment confuses me.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...


It's not a replacement for tribal. I mentioned rural because a part of the challenge in a unified government is governance of isolated areas which are also very tribal. The population distribution between rural and urban areas in Afghanistan is very different than the US.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

"We want peace, we want it fast but we want it with a plan," Ghani said in his address Monday.

Mr. Ghani isn't at the bargaining table.

"We should not forget that the victims of this war are Afghans and the peace process should also be Afghan-led... No Afghan wants foreign troops to remain in their country indefinitely. No Afghan wants to face suicide attacks in hospitals, schools, the mosques, and parks."

I don't doubt that Mr. Ghani thinks that the "peace process should also be Afghan-led", but the fact is that the Afghans are NOT at the bargaining table.

Ghani spoke hours after his office said it has been reassured by Washington that the talks in Qatar remain geared towards bringing the insurgents to the table with Kabul.

I am sure that Mr Ghani is greatly reassured by Washington's reassurance that the bargaining that doesn't include the Afghans will place the interests of the Afghans ahead of the interests of the parties who are actually at the bargaining table.

U.S. special envoy Zalmay Khalilzad -- who has been leading the negotiations -- arrived in Afghanistan late Sunday to update officials including Ghani on the progress made."

Read as "OK, here is what we are going to do and you are going to either like it or lump it.".

Seems like they care at least a little bit.

The Afghans most certainly do care about what happens to the Afghans. The US government most certainly does care what happens to the Americans.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

It's not a replacement for tribal. I mentioned rural because a part of the challenge in a unified government is governance of isolated areas which are also very tribal. The population distribution between rural and urban areas in Afghanistan is very different than the US.

And the Afghan society is also one hell of a lot more "tribal" than the American society is.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

And the Afghan society is also one hell of a lot more "tribal" than the American society is.

For sure. You're not getting much done without talking to a tribal leader. Controlling urban centers makes more strategic in centralized, developed nations; in Afghanistan the tribes are pretty self sufficient.
 
Re: US and Taliban "draft" framework for Afghanistan peace deal on ceasefire and withdrawal as ...

For sure. You're not getting much done without talking to a tribal leader.

That's not quite true.

If you only talk to the urban government leaders you have a much smaller range of people who will rob you blind (admittedly they will do it faster).

Controlling urban centers makes more strategic in centralized, developed nations; in Afghanistan the tribes are pretty self sufficient.

And most of them subscribe to the "Foreigners Opinions Aren't Desired" school of thinking.
 
Back
Top Bottom