United Nations rejects U.S. proposal to extend Iran arms embargo

[dcsports]

Yes they said it until Trump in his usual brilliance truly pissed them off and tried in vain to get the other parties to leave with him. Iran didn't have to honor the deal after that, but apparently they gave their word they would so they are really nasty people who always would have done what they did because they can't be trusted. UNBELIEVABLE



zippe kype centrifuges cost no more than $20K a piece. Ever heard of swap outs for maintenance? Yes its entirely feasible that they'd have 10% overage in inventory. Especially when you are working with government budgets - spend the money when its allocated is a universal government bureaucratic mantra.

You know heavy water is used in MRI's and other medical equipment, don't you? You must also know that heavy water also occurs naturally. And if you have a peaceful energy reactor and use heavy water as the moderator, wouldn't you also have a stockpile, particularly when you are uncertain of regular uninterrupted supply.

you need to elevate your view a tad. You're in the weeds trying to justify trump's rationale for reneging on America's word.

I don't know how much the centrifuges cost - again, referring to the agreement. They weren't supposed to test more than 30. They installed more than that at the start. And the heavy water, again, exceeded the capacity under the agreement.

Again, the US withdrew from the agreement, under the terms of the agreement. There was no 'renege'. Iran was still bound by it and agreed to honor it with other members, while it was convenient. They only tossed it after they exceeded the caps. It is naive to believe that wasn't their plan from the start.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Its bizarre to argue that we can impose penalties on another country for not complying with an agreement that we pulled out of, so in that vein I would concur with the other nations. However its also bizarre for those nations to not impose sanctions against Iran for advancing its weapons programs when that is against the best interests of all those nations.
What is the point in standing by silently here? You don't have to like Trump to understand that Iran aquiring more powerful weapons is not a good idea.
I feel like there is something being left out of the artical or I am missing something in it.
Theres no doubt that the Trump administration is msking a weak argument and would be on a better foothold to just declare Irans pursuits dangerous and base the sanctions on that rather than invoke the terms of a broken agreement that they broke, but whst do these other nations, who have a good argument for reinstating sanctions based on the agreement that they didnt break, have to gain by standing mute?

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The UN is in a holding mode. They don't want to commit until they find out who wins in November. They know that Biden would would capitulate to Iran and China. It would be a bad political move, as they know that any sanctions/embargos would be lifted immediately. Kerry was in Iran, telling them not to give in to the US, because Trump will soon be out of power.

 

[Jonsa]

I don't know how much the centrifuges cost - again, referring to the agreement. They weren't supposed to test more than 30. They installed more than that at the start. And the heavy water, again, exceeded the capacity under the agreement.

Again, the US withdrew from the agreement, under the terms of the agreement. There was no 'renege'. Iran was still bound by it and agreed to honor it with other members, while it was convenient. They only tossed it after they exceeded the caps. It is naive to believe that wasn't their plan from the start.

sorry, but Trump unilaterally pulled out of the agreement even tho the other signees ALL averred Iran was keeping to the agreement. That's fact.

 

[Metric Mouse]

sorry, but Trump unilaterally pulled out of the agreement even tho the other signees ALL averred Iran was keeping to the agreement. That's fact.

True. Seems those other signatories could not keep Iran in compliance.

 

[snakestretcher]

Again, Iran planned to be 'in compliance' as long as it was convenient. They didn't suddenly just fall off the wagon. They planned a path to get there. Trump didn't 'renege' - he pulled us out of a bad deal.

Iran was essentially left to develop it's program and get the benefits of the deal. Once they were ready to move on, they did, exactly as predicted.

All the above is merely your opinion.

 

[Manc Skipper]

There's more than a hint of the old bumper sticker "Why is our oil under their sand?" about these Iran threads.

 

[snakestretcher]

There's more than a hint of the old bumper sticker "Why is our oil under their sand?" about these Iran threads.

Oh so true. US arrogance knows no bounds.

 

[dcsports]

All the above is merely your opinion.

No. Again, many predicted that Iran would do exactly as they did. They did, in fact, take steps to run past the limits within a few years, and left the agreement as soon as they did so.

 

[Manc Skipper]

No. Again, many predicted that Iran would do exactly as they did. They did, in fact, take steps to run past the limits within a few years, and left the agreement as soon as they did so.

They were in compliance right up until Don the Dope walked away in a huff.

 

[dcsports]

They were in compliance right up until Don the Dope walked away in a huff.

They actually were slipping their toe across the line, as they prepared to leap across. And again, this was exactly the concern expressed when the deal started.

It's like arguing that Iran is an alcoholic isn't going to get drunk when he said he's only had 'two beers' (or was it three?). The US said if we shouldn't leave Iran alone with a case in the fridge. The UN said, 'he's not drunk yet, and we said he could keep a few beers for cooking'. Iran gets plastered, and now you're blaming the guy who said we shouldn't leave him alone with the beer.

 

[HacTao]

The us has been illegally stifling the Iranian people in the Hopes of breaking their theocratic hold on the populace and citizenry.

I think the UN is correct here.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I wonder how many of the people here know anything about cricket :lol:.

I do like to toss in the occasional excuse for people to actually learn something. Why, for years I thought that the actual position title was "Silly Mid-On" rather than how the position was played (which appears to be mostly "silly").

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

True. Seems those other signatories could not keep Iran in compliance.

Actually there was no "deal" to keep Iran in "compliance" with once the US reneged on its agreement, did not do what it was pledged to do and did exactly what it was pledged not to do.

Let me give you an example to see if you can actually understand what actually happened

ALF agreed with BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, FRANK, and GEORGE that he would sell them his car provided that they gave him $1,000 and if GEORGE would remove the pile of gravel that GEORGE had dumped in his driveway.

BOB was to contribute $100.

CHARLIE was to contribute $100.

DON was to contribute $100.

ERIC was to contribute $100.

FRANK was to contribute $100.

GEORGE was to contribute $500 and remove the pile of gravel that he had dumped in ALF's driveway.

GEORGE not only refused to pony up the $500 that he had agreed to but also dumped a few more loads of gravel in ALF's driveway and said that he was going to continue to dump gravel in ALF's driveway for as long as he felt like doing so.

ALF refused to complete the sale of the car to BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, and FRANK even though BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, and FRANK were more than willing to pony up their individual $100 payments (they were not prepared to do anything about reducing the level of gravel in ALF's driveway because they had never agreed to do that in the first place).

GEORGE accuses ALF of acting in bad faith because he refused to complete the sale of the car.

EXAM QUESTION

Is is wrong for BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, and FRANK to think that GEORGE is no longer eligible for day passes from "The Home" and that anyone who thinks that he is is a fool?
​

 

[Metric Mouse]

Actually there was no "deal" to keep Iran in "compliance" with once the US reneged on its agreement, did not do what it was pledged to do and did exactly what it was pledged not to do.

Let me give you an example to see if you can actually understand what actually happened

ALF agreed with BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, FRANK, and GEORGE that he would sell them his car provided that they gave him $1,000 and if GEORGE would remove the pile of gravel that GEORGE had dumped in his driveway.

BOB was to contribute $100.

CHARLIE was to contribute $100.

DON was to contribute $100.

ERIC was to contribute $100.

FRANK was to contribute $100.

GEORGE was to contribute $500 and remove the pile of gravel that he had dumped in ALF's driveway.

GEORGE not only refused to pony up the $500 that he had agreed to but also dumped a few more loads of gravel in ALF's driveway and said that he was going to continue to dump gravel in ALF's driveway for as long as he felt like doing so.

ALF refused to complete the sale of the car to BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, and FRANK even though BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, and FRANK were more than willing to pony up their individual $100 payments (they were not prepared to do anything about reducing the level of gravel in ALF's driveway because they had never agreed to do that in the first place).

GEORGE accuses ALF of acting in bad faith because he refused to complete the sale of the car.

EXAM QUESTION

Is is wrong for BOB, CHARLIE, DON, ERIC, and FRANK to think that GEORGE is no longer eligible for day passes from "The Home" and that anyone who thinks that he is is a fool?
​

Meh. So not that big of a deal then. George didn't want the car, and the rest didn't want the car bad enough to pony up an extra few hundred bucks and rent a skidder. But I'm sure the cheapos won't. And now Alf is paying people to slash George's tires. Classy. No wonder no one wants to buy a car from him.

 

[Jonsa]

True. Seems those other signatories could not keep Iran in compliance.

er, i see what you are saying. The 600lb gorrilla pulls out of an agreement and all those others are responsible for keeping Iran in compliance of the deal Trump's America rejected arbitrarily.

Then the 600 lb gorilla threatens every corporation under the sun that if they do business with Iran he will retaliate. So sure its all everybody's elses fault that Iran said "Shove it up your arse".

 

[Metric Mouse]

er, i see what you are saying. The 600lb gorrilla pulls out of an agreement and all those others are responsible for keeping Iran in compliance of the deal Trump's America rejected arbitrarily.

Then the 600 lb gorilla threatens every corporation under the sun that if they do business with Iran he will retaliate. So sure its all everybody's elses fault that Iran said "Shove it up your arse".

Seems without American approval, no one else can make a deal. That must be frustrating.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Meh. So not that big of a deal then. George didn't want the car, and the rest didn't want the car bad enough to pony up an extra few hundred bucks and rent a skidder. But I'm sure the cheapos won't. And now Alf is paying people to slash George's tires. Classy. No wonder no one wants to buy a car from him.

I really did try to create an analogy that was so simple that EVERYONE could understand it.

Obviously I didn't make it simple enough.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Seems without American approval, no one else can make a deal. That must be frustrating.

It's also a situation that Mr. Trump's actions are forcing a reconsideration of.

Pushed far enough, the other nations of the world are quite likely to decide that the inconvenience of ignoring the government of the United States of America and what the government of the United States of America wants to have them do is worth it in order to gain the benefits of being able to act in their own best interests (rather than in the best interests of the United States of America) FIRST.

Should that happen, then the leader of the US will become "the lame duck of the free world".

 

[Metric Mouse]

I really did try to create an analogy that was so simple that EVERYONE could understand it.

Obviously I didn't make it simple enough.

It's probably better to discuss the actual situation, instead of deflecting to analogies. I understand your grasp of the actual situation is tenuous, thus your need to use analogies to help you understand. But the point is, no one (within the JCPoA) wants anything Iran has. So there's not much reason to give them anything, which is why no one does.

 

[Metric Mouse]

It's also a situation that Mr. Trump's actions are forcing a reconsideration of.

Pushed far enough, the other nations of the world are quite likely to decide that the inconvenience of ignoring the government of the United States of America and what the government of the United States of America wants to have them do is worth it in order to gain the benefits of being able to act in their own best interests (rather than in the best interests of the United States of America) FIRST.

Should that happen, then the leader of the US will become "the lame duck of the free world".

Absolutely. There are many books written on the subject.

The question the ones I have read seek to answer is "Why, now, should the United States care?" 70 years ago there was an answer; that answer stopped applying 30 years ago. Now there's just not much that anyone can do to entice the United States to do anything it doesn't want to; it's a shocking change to world order that is forcing reconsideration of many things, as you pointed out.

 

[Jonsa]

Seems without American approval, no one else can make a deal. That must be frustrating.

Its always frustrating when you can't trust your partners not to be arbitrarily motivated by personal partisan politics and considerable ignorance of realpolitik.

Seems America's word has gone from rock solid to "which way is the wind blowing in Trump's polls". And trumplicans are beaming with pride.

 

[Jonsa]

No. Again, many predicted that Iran would do exactly as they did. They did, in fact, take steps to run past the limits within a few years, and left the agreement as soon as they did so.

What amazing predictive powers to state the obvious.

 

[Metric Mouse]

Its always frustrating when you can't trust your partners not to be arbitrarily motivated by personal partisan politics and considerable ignorance of realpolitik.

Seems America's word has gone from rock solid to "which way is the wind blowing in Trump's polls". And trumplicans are beaming with pride.

Yes, the world has changed in the past decade. America is moving on. Much of the rest of the world will experience growing pains as they failed to plan for these changes over the past 30 years. America no longer has the same needs as 70 years ago, and the rest of the world has to come to terms with the fact that they may now need to offer something to get America's attention. The United States has never been rock solid to people that had nothing to give back, and now places that previously had something to offer may find that they, like Iran, are now out of luck and have no mechanism to get America to act or not act. America's word is just as good as it ever was, which is to say not much to anyone outside the club; some countries are just shocked that they are now outside the club instead of inside of the club. It's interesting to watch in real time.

 

[Jonsa]

Yes, the world has changed in the past decade. America is moving on. Much of the rest of the world will experience growing pains as they failed to plan for these changes over the past 30 years. America no longer has the same needs as 70 years ago, and the rest of the world has to come to terms with the fact that they may now need to offer something to get America's attention. The United States has never been rock solid to people that had nothing to give back, and now places that previously had something to offer may find that they, like Iran, are now out of luck and have no mechanism to get America to act or not act. America's word is just as good as it ever was, which is to say not much to anyone outside the club; some countries are just shocked that they are now outside the club instead of inside of the club. It's interesting to watch in real time.

WOW. the ol' American arrogance replacing common sense.

Perhaps you can tell us all about America's changing needs in an increasingly globalized economy.
Perhaps you can tell us all how America's strategic position in this 21st century has changed so dramatically to rationalize this attitudinal and doctrinal change.

Of course you can't, you can just condescendingly pontificate like your blowhard "leader".

America has been HUMILIATED on the world stage on more than one occasion since Trump anointed himself King and demi-god of all the good americans. Not that trumplicans would have any clue since only they and theirs are worth their attention.

 

[Ringo Stalin]

The US under Trump has lost its role as the leader of the free world. This opinion was expressed by former Secretary of state John Kerry.

Indeed, Trump is the only US President in recent decades, who has not launched a single new war.

A shame. In Free-world circles, this is can't be forgiven!