under funding in schools

[Jufarius87]

gabo is right parents will still get to see what their kids do and since they get to pick which kid their school is sent to the embezzlers wont be able to survive because they will be over taken by honest schools that have the best equipment and faculty to student ratios

also invent a small watchdog system that does random inspections on the schools to prevent fraud and no this would not be as expensive as the ed. boards we have today

 

[Fantasea]

Lessee, first we take public money and give it to the owners of the private school. They then take a substantial part of it as profit and put it in their pocket. What is left is then used to do the same thing better than the greater amount of public money was already doing. Less is more? Sounds a tad Orwellian to me.

You may be right; Orwellian. However, just think, if this had been done since 1984, all of the public education problems would have disappeared and those relegated to the 'dumb' group for the rest of their lives would be on a par with their age peers.

 

[Gabo]

pick which kid their school is sent to

Lol!

also invent a small watchdog system that does random inspections on the schools to prevent fraud and no this would not be as expensive as the ed. boards we have today

Ouch! Once again trying to insert government where private businesses could provide a better product. Certain businesses could provide a "seal of approval" for instance, rating different schools on their quality so people know the best places for their children. However, should government regulate this it once again becomes corruptable because they have no comptetition.

 

[heyjoeo]

Hello? Private schools exist...You can pay if you want a better education.

 

[Gabo]

Yes, "private" schools exist..... but they're not as private as you think.

People that go there must continue to pay to go to public school as well as paying for private school, making private school unaffordable for most.

On top of that, private schools aren't really private. The government still regulates them and sets certain standards.

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

gabo is right parents will still get to see what their kids do and since they get to pick which kid their school is sent to the embezzlers wont be able to survive because they will be over taken by honest schools that have the best equipment and faculty to student ratios

Never mind that charter schools and private schools already exist and don't work noticeably better than public schools. There are even those who say that they don't work as well. It would be really loverly to destroy the public school system and then find out that we made a BIG mistake, wouldn't it?

 

[Fantasea]

Never mind that charter schools and private schools already exist and don't work noticeably better than public schools. There are even those who say that they don't work as well. It would be really loverly to destroy the public school system and then find out that we made a BIG mistake, wouldn't it?

Here's a question for you.

Can you explain why, in inner-city neighborhoods that draw students from the same population, the odds of an entering freshman graduating from a public high school in the neighborhood are less than 40%, while the odds of an entering freshman graduating from a parochial school in the neighborhood are greater than 90%?

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

The Conference of Catholic Bishops: Catholic schools can do a better job on less money, a $3,200 Catholic school average vs. public school average of $5,800.

The truth is, if private or parochial schools had to meet public school mandates, the price differential would evaporate instantly. No private school is mandated to provide special education, counseling and dropout prevention, vo-tech education, alternative education, bilingual education, compensatory education, student transportation, health and psychological services, food services or decent salaries and fringe benefits. Public schools are not permitted to pick and choose the students they will educate. (Source: Economic Policy Institute, Where's The Money Gone, a major national survey)

George W. Bush: I support vouchers because too many have our minority students are being cheated of a quality education.

The truth is, in Wisconsin where vouchers were supposed to rescue Milwaukee's poor ghetto public school children, 40% of the kids being financed have never been in a public school. Sen. Polly Williams, Afro-American author of the voucher program, now bitterly denounces it as a sham to finance elite private and Catholic schools by taxpayers.
Black children are doing better than ever in public schools. The white public school completion rate is 92%, the black rate is at an historic high -- 87%. The Hispanic rate is 75%. (Source: Digest of Education Statistics, 1998, Table 105)

In a study published in 1990, for example, the Rand Corporation analyzed big-city high schools to determine how education for low income minority youth could be improved.2 It looked at 13 public, private, and Catholic high schools in New York City that attracted minority and disadvantaged youth. Of the Catholic school students in these schools, 75 to 90 percent were black or Hispanic. The study found that:
The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;

This particular quote comes to you courtesy of the Heritage foundation. Heritage and Rand, two neocon think tanks. Anyway, the whole document sings the praises of parochial schools at great length. I include this to show the quality of logic involved. This says the Catholic high schools graduated 95% of their 10th, 11th and 12th graders, ninety-five percent of their entire student body, that is, each year. I find that hard to believe.

 

[Gabo]

The reason private schools don't do well is because people still must pay for their child to attend public school while also paying to attend private school.

Not only that, but the government does impose SOME regulations to private schools, so they are not completely private.



Suppose they used the same system as they do for education with burger restraunts. Everyone paid taxes so McDonalds hamburgers were free, but if you wanted Burger King you had to pay for it ON TOP OF what you already pay for the McDonalds hamburgers. How many people do you think would buy Burger King hamburgers?

Worse than that, now McDonalds basically has a monopoly. If people want free hamburgers, they MUST go to McDonalds. So now McDonalds has NO incentive to improve their burger product. In fact, they can even slack off and provide a worse product because they get the same funding anyway.

public schools vs. private schools is the same as...
monopolies vs. competition or even...
communism vs. capitalism

Everyone acts like they are SOOO capitalist, yet right under our noses America practices plenty of communist ways! When will we understand that pure capitalism is the best way?

 

[Jufarius87]

the fact of the matter is private schools across the board> are superior to their public school counter parts scrapping public school would essentially fuse school tax and private school tuition to create something cheaper for everyone

i still beleive we would need a small watchdog system for loose regulation corperations need a small amount of govt control

 

[Fantasea]

This particular quote comes to you courtesy of the Heritage foundation. Heritage and Rand, two neocon think tanks. Anyway, the whole document sings the praises of parochial schools at great length. I include this to show the quality of logic involved. This says the Catholic high schools graduated 95% of their 10th, 11th and 12th graders, ninety-five percent of their entire student body, that is, each year. I find that hard to believe.

This post, and the information it contains validates the solution to the problem, doesn't it?

 

[Gabo]

i still beleive we would need a small watchdog system for loose regulation corperations need a small amount of govt control

For what reason?

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

Suppose they used the same system as they do for education with burger restraunts. Everyone paid taxes so McDonalds hamburgers were free, but if you wanted Burger King you had to pay for it ON TOP OF what you already pay for the McDonalds hamburgers. How many people do you think would buy Burger King hamburgers?

There is also a whole class of people who don't eat either kind of hamburger. Why should they be taxed to provide them to others?

My daughter has been out of school since 1984, yet I am still being taxed to send the children of others to school. I do not begrudge this; if we didn't have a publicly funded education, many children wouldn't go to school. That's the way it is in Mexico. If all children are given vouchers to go to whatever private school they choose, it will still be my tax money buying those vouchers. I would begrudge my tax money going into some fat cat's pockets.

 

[Gabo]

Maybe if our society wasn't so overtaxed and regulated, people could prosper and afford to send their children to school.

And charitable organizations could set up for underprivaleged children to get an education.

With private schooling, education could be come less expensive and more optimized.

Best of all, people could decide what curriculum they wish to learn, and attend whatever school best provided that curriculum.

 

[Ashley]

All I know is this... there is something seriously wrong in America, when were wasting all of our money trying to be superman, by invading countries all of the world... rebuilding their entire way of life, supplying for their schools when schools in America are hardly satisfactory level.

I've seen many schools, I've seen many in the suburbs which are usually well kept, text book supplied, they usually also have clean bathrooms with plenty of soap in the containers.

I've also seen some in the city, where the teachers are under-paid and have no motovation to even remotely bother educating the students in the best way possible.

The text books are 10 years old, and the school can't afford to buy new ones... I'm not sure why they can't afford to buy new ones... shouldn't they be getting the money from the state?

Other schools however are being able to buy technology for the classroom... (Computers, Smartboards, etc...) These same schools have the higher-paid teachers and the students are getting higher test scores as well. These same schools happen to be in the suburbs.

I'm not sure what some of you mean by: There are no under-funded schools... Then explain to me why this is becoming a crisis in America?

So much so that inner-city kids are being forced to travel miles every day to go to a school where you can actually find soap in the bathrooms, and a text book thats not 10 years old?

 

[Jufarius87]

you know what gabo ive relooked it and ur right to watchdogs needed at the very least we should let capitalism try to fix the problem and then if embazzlement/corruption occured then create the watchdog system

tell me if this would work also this is how i see the public to private transition occuring

ya now how during the depression fdr had "bank day" do the same for schools inspect all of them and shut down the sickest ones leave only the ones that still have potential then w/ the rest of the schools have the government sell them to different private investors

the government would profit (if they did this in my area they could use the cash to help bail out medicaid) and all schools would be privately owned and would start competing with each other eventually it could get to the point that the government may not need to fund the schools at all there by eliminating school tax!

 

[Fantasea]

Maybe if our society wasn't so overtaxed and regulated, people could prosper and afford to send their children to school.

I do not think that is the problem. I believe the problem is in the way the money in the educational budget is spent. Those who take the time and make the effort to obtain a copy of the local public school district budget and read it through are usually flabbergasted at the items on which considerable sums of money are spent.

The national average of dollars budgeted annually per capita for grades K-12 is more than $7,500. Is this not more than the annual tuition at a great many colleges?

No. The problem can't be not enough money. The problem must be how the money is spent.

And charitable organizations could set up for underprivaleged children to get an education.

They do. They do. They do. The population shift in most urban areas have surrounded parochial schools with the very underprivileged children you mention. With only the neighborhood children from which to draw students, they serve as beacons in the dark, as it were. Most of the tuition expenses are subsidized by their affiliated organizations and alumni.

With private schooling, education could be come less expensive and more optimized.

Best of all, people could decide what curriculum they wish to learn, and attend whatever school best provided that curriculum.

I believe that the federal, state, county, and school district money budgeted for education should be allocated to individual students and directed to whatever school in which the child is enrolled.

This would cause a number of things to happen. Among them, competition among schools to fill seats would engender the will to excel, failing schools which could not be rehabilitated would close; a new administration would organize a new school in the old building, incapable teachers and administrators would either shape up or be tossed out, curricula and teaching methods would be adjusted to bring below average students up to par, student attitudes would improve, grades would improve, dropout rates would decline. In short, the taxpayer would get his money's worth.

 

[Gabo]

you know what gabo ive relooked it and ur right to watchdogs needed at the very least we should let capitalism try to fix the problem and then if embazzlement/corruption occured then create the watchdog system

tell me if this would work also this is how i see the public to private transition occuring

ya now how during the depression fdr had "bank day" do the same for schools inspect all of them and shut down the sickest ones leave only the ones that still have potential then w/ the rest of the schools have the government sell them to different private investors

the government would profit (if they did this in my area they could use the cash to help bail out medicaid) and all schools would be privately owned and would start competing with each other eventually it could get to the point that the government may not need to fund the schools at all there by eliminating school tax!

There's absolutely no need for us to waste money on government inspection day at all! All those schools that provide a terrible service will recieve no students. They won't make enough profit to survive and will shut themselves down.

This would cause a number of things to happen. Among them, competition among schools to fill seats would engender the will to excel, failing schools which could not be rehabilitated would close; a new administration would organize a new school in the old building, incapable teachers and administrators would either shape up or be tossed out, curricula and teaching methods would be adjusted to bring below average students up to par, student attitudes would improve, grades would improve, dropout rates would decline. In short, the taxpayer would get his money's worth.

Once again, as you move away from communism and closer to capitalism, quality of life increases! Why not move all the way to capitalism and make schooling private? (not to mention tons of other services)

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

There's absolutely no need for us to waste money on government inspection day at all! All those schools that provide a terrible service will recieve no students. They won't make enough profit to survive and will shut themselves down.

And if there doesn't turn out to be anywhere near enough schools to accomodate all the pupils, the schools can raise their tuition in accordance with the well-known supply vs demand curve.

Once again, as you move away from communism and closer to capitalism, quality of life increases! Why not move all the way to capitalism and make schooling private? (not to mention tons of other services)

Of course the first thing any good capitalist does is do his best to eliminate competition. This improves his quality of life considerably, but what it does for his pupils is not something he is going to worry about. After all, his goal is to make money rather than educate kids.

 

[Fantasea]

And if there doesn't turn out to be anywhere near enough schools to accomodate all the pupils, the schools can raise their tuition in accordance with the well-known supply vs demand curve.

Bear in mind that the fault does not lie with the school buildings. These are inanimate objects that are used by the folks who are supposed to be doing the teaching. Rest assured that any failed school would re-open quickly, 'under new management'.

Of course the first thing any good capitalist does is do his best to eliminate competition. This improves his quality of life considerably, but what it does for his pupils is not something he is going to worry about. After all, his goal is to make money rather than educate kids.

With all schools in a particular district receiving the same per student amount, the incentive for each school is to do a better job than other schools so as to keep the enrollment at the maximum level.

Economically, where would any of us be if 'capitalists' did not provide the jobs that enable us to support ourselves? Entrepeneurs are capitalists, too.

If a capitalist is willing to invest his capital in something that provides benefits to others , why is it that so many folks complain if he makes money on the deal?

 

[Gabo]

Of course the first thing any good capitalist does is do his best to eliminate competition. This improves his quality of life considerably, but what it does for his pupils is not something he is going to worry about. After all, his goal is to make money rather than educate kids.

Yes, because providing subpar education that the kids hate will earn you students begging to enroll in your school....

And SO WHAT if one school happens to monopolize an area for a time. If they do, its because they provide better quality service than anyone else. And if they happen to start providing worse service once they've eliminated the competition, new businesses will spring up realizing they can make some money by having lower prices than the big guys.

In our system now, the government owns the monopoly. And when they do, there's nobody who even has a chance to compete with them because we are FORCED to pay for the "free" government schooling.

And what incentive does the government have to improve quality and lower prices? NONE! Figuring out ways to improve quality and/or lower prices takes valuable time and energy, something public schools don't have.